Jump to content
This site uses cookies. Continued use is acceptance of our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. More Info... ×
  • Welcome to Celiac.com!

    You have found your celiac tribe! Join us and ask questions in our forum, share your story, and connect with others.




  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A1):



    Celiac.com Sponsor (A1-M):


  • Get Celiac.com Updates:
    Support Our Content
    eNewsletter
    Donate
  • Dr. Rodney Ford M.D.
    Dr. Rodney Ford M.D.

    Gluten-related Disorders: Not Black and White

    Reviewed and edited by a celiac disease expert.

    Journal of Gluten Sensitivity Spring 2016 Issue - Originally published April 14, 2016

    Gluten-related Disorders: Not Black and White - Photo: CC--hardtopeel
    Caption: Photo: CC--hardtopeel

    Celiac.com 04/20/2016 - I am likely to be accused of gluten heresy. That is because I propose that celiac disease and gluten sensitivity usually coexist. By this I mean that they are not mutually exclusive entities.

    Image: Dr. Rodney FordIn other words, most people who have celiac disease are also gluten-sensitive. Many people who are gluten-sensitive are likely to develop celiac disease with continued gluten exposure (depending on their genetic markers).

    Celiac.com Sponsor (A12):
    My observations show that the distinction between celiac disease and gluten-sensitivity (the gluten syndrome) is blurred. The purpose of published algorithms and decision trees are designed to separate out celiac disease from other gluten-illnesses. I suggest that this thinking is flawed.

    For example, most flow charts go something like this: (See Flow Chart 1 at left).

    People are selected for celiac-blood-tests for a number of reasons. If your blood tests are positive (and usually if you carry a DQ2/8 gene), then you get an endoscopy to confirm/deny the diagnosis. This allows you to be categorized either Yes-celiac disease or Not-celiac disease. There is no overlap. This is an "us-and-them" scenario.

    However, isolating YES-celiac disease from every other gluten problem does not take into account that people who have gluten-gut-damage may well have other manifestations of gluten-related disorders.

    Such simplistic algorithms (decision trees) strike problems at every decision point. Such as: Who should be tested? Who should be re-tested? When should these tests be done? At what age? On how much gluten? What tests should be done? What are the cut-off levels? How important is carrying the DQ2/8 genes? What about sero-negative celiac disease? How accurate are endoscopic biopsies? Who interprets the Marsh scale? How long should a gluten challenge be?

    Such simplistic algorithms (decision trees) also do not give satisfactory answers to the following questions:

    1. Why do 10% of people with celiac disease have little or no symptoms, despite having severe small bowel damage (villous atrophy)? This group is called "asymptomatic" celiac disease. Villous atrophy alone cannot account for the majority of gluten-related symptoms.
    2. Why do half of the people with celiac disease have autonomic nervous system dysfunction? This is the disturbance of the automatic nerve activity of your internal organs. This cannot be directly attributed to villous atrophy.
    3. Why do most people with celiac disease have some brain/mental upset, including the pervasive brain-fog? Many people have neurological disease from gluten but do not have established celiac disease.
    4. How can so many "extra-intestinal manifestations" of celiac disease be attributed to intestinal gut damage alone?

    I am sure that you will have witnessed strong feelings from the defenders of 'celiac-disease-is-a-stand-alone illness'. For instance, read these two opposing comments from Facebook:

    • A. "I find it hard to believe that gluten intolerant people (or gluten avoiders) are as strict as us who have celiac disease."
    • B. "I am gluten intolerant (suspected Celiac but I refuse to eat gluten in order to be tested properly) … I am incredibly strict on what I eat."

    The world of gluten is not black and white! But there remains a tension between those who have "biopsy-proven" celiac disease, and those people who are "gluten-intolerant". However, there is a cross-over between gluten-sensitivity/intolerance and celiac disease. There is no sharp dividing line – there is lots of grey!

    I would like to see the support groups of both celiac disease and gluten sensitivity work together with a focus on their common ground. This is already happening in some countries. Both groups promote an accurate diagnosis and a strict gluten-free diet. But I call into question the accuracy of current diagnostic methodology.

    Another comment from Facebook is a good example of these blurred lines:
    "I had an endoscopy and I have some small intestine damage: increased intraepithelial lymphocytes, shortened villi and duodenitis. The gastroenterologist said I had gluten-sensitivity but because I was not celiac (wasn't Marsh stage 3a), he said that I didn't need to be quite as careful with gluten. But I know I am super sensitive - even a small piece of chocolate with gluten in it makes me sick for a few weeks. I suspect that I either didn't have enough gluten before the endoscopy, or I am in the early stages of developing it."

    This is what I conclude:

    1. Both groups (people with celiac disease, and people with gluten sensitivity/intolerance) come under the umbrella category of gluten-related disorders. The term non-celiac gluten-sensitivity (NCGS) excludes those with evidence of intestinal damage from gluten. But with time and continued gluten ingestion, some of these people will develop celiac disease. NCGS is part of the gluten-related disorders spectrum (see my book: Open Original Shared Link).
    2. Both groups have an identical list of possible symptoms. They are both equally harmed by gluten. They are indistinguishable from each other without blood tests and/or endoscopy.
    3. For both groups, my recommendation is to be zero gluten. Avoidance of cross-contamination is crucial for everyone. Both groups can be exquisitely sensitive to gluten. Some celiacs experience no symptoms from gluten, making it more of a challenge for them to remain gluten-zero. Some gluten-sensitive people do not yet have overt symptoms but are developing an inflammatory state.
    4. Many people who are gluten-sensitive produce antibodies to gluten, AGA (anti-gliadin-antibodies). There is a large literature on this. AGA-positive people are more likely to develop gluten-illnesses. AGA tests are recommended in the Fasano paper the "spectrum of gluten related disorders", for the celiac and gluten sensitivity work-up (particularly for neurological disorders). I use them on a day-to-day basis in my Clinic, and so do many other practitioners. More wheat/gluten harmful proteins have yet to be identified. Early in the development of celiac disease, the person can have significant symptoms, and they may have elevated AGA antibodies, but they may have no evidence yet of intestinal damage. At this stage these two conditions are indistinguishable.
    5. How early can you diagnose celiac disease? Do you have to wait until there is substantial intestinal damage so that you can make the classic diagnosis with villous atrophy? Or do you keep on eating gluten until the damage has occurred? Or do you go strictly gluten zero and not know if you are gluten sensitive or have early celiac disease? The HLA gene (DQ2/DQ8) cannot be used as a casting vote. It is my recommendation to abandon gluten as early as possible and not wait until you have substantial intestinal damage, which may never heal.
    6. Not only is the gluten intolerant community (this includes celiac disease) confused about gluten-illness. Also, the medical fraternity is confused. The science and clinical issues are rapidly developing whilst most medical practitioners are still looking for the classic celiac with weight loss, malabsorption, and a bloated tummy (and are using an out-of-date simplistic algorithm). Many people request celiac tests of their GPs but are denied the test. The community is much more aware of gluten related disorder than medical practitioners.

    Yes, there are a lot of issues to think about. These gluten-illnesses are complicated to diagnose. My prediction is that increasing numbers of people will adopt a gluten zero diet. However, almost certainly it is much more than the substance gluten that is making us sick. It will take a long time to unravel all of these strings. Most people are after an easy answer, or a drug, or a vaccine. But I'm sure that it is going to become even more complicated as we learn more. These complexities do not show up in a simplistic algorithm.

    The way for an individual to solve this is to adopt a gluten-zero diet, lifelong.



    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Guest ronnie

    Posted

    I find wheat,soy and rye complications fascinating!

    I am a bonafide dh carrier. I do fine on one dapsone a day and a non gluten diet.  the strange thing is there are so many ways that wheat is used I still can get the sypmtoms on a 100% gluten free diet. for example, did you all know that frozen vegetables in the grocers aisle are dusted with wheat so the vegetables don't stick together?

    so to me it's fascinating.

    I suppose it's the same way folks feel that are allergic to shell fish or peanuts....

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    Bluebird47

    I had no idea that there was a “rift” between people diagnosed with celiac and those with gluten sensitivity.  I was just diagnosed with gluten sensitivity after an endoscopy, multiple digestive tract biopsies, and blood work.  All I know is that if I eat anything with gluten in it, my gums and mouth itch - and if I don’t stop immediately, I get the searing pain throughout my digestive tract that prompted me to get tested in the first place.  My mom is verified celiac, so I was told that I will eventually develop that.  But I am gluten-free right now, because I just can’t eat the stuff.  So why is there a division between celiacs and gluten-sensitives?  We’re all suffering.  Let’s just support each other.  I can’t tell you how much I miss beer and a good cheeseburger . . .

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    trents
    19 minutes ago, Bluebird47 said:

    I had no idea that there was a “rift” between people diagnosed with celiac and those with gluten sensitivity.  I was just diagnosed with gluten sensitivity after an endoscopy, multiple digestive tract biopsies, and blood work.  All I know is that if I eat anything with gluten in it, my gums and mouth itch - and if I don’t stop immediately, I get the searing pain throughout my digestive tract that prompted me to get tested in the first place.  My mom is verified celiac, so I was told that I will eventually develop that.  But I am gluten-free right now, because I just can’t eat the stuff.  So why is there a division between celiacs and gluten-sensitives?  We’re all suffering.  Let’s just support each other.  I can’t tell you how much I miss beer and a good cheeseburger . . .

    Bluebird47, In this forum community I do not sense a rift between those with celiac disease and those with gluten sensitivity. The article can be read to give the impression that those with celiac disease are at the top of the pecking order in the no gluten world but I don't think that bears out in this online community.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    CMCM
    6 hours ago, Bluebird47 said:

    I had no idea that there was a “rift” between people diagnosed with celiac and those with gluten sensitivity.  I was just diagnosed with gluten sensitivity after an endoscopy, multiple digestive tract biopsies, and blood work.  All I know is that if I eat anything with gluten in it, my gums and mouth itch - and if I don’t stop immediately, I get the searing pain throughout my digestive tract that prompted me to get tested in the first place.  My mom is verified celiac, so I was told that I will eventually develop that.  But I am gluten-free right now, because I just can’t eat the stuff.  So why is there a division between celiacs and gluten-sensitives?  We’re all suffering.  Let’s just support each other.  I can’t tell you how much I miss beer and a good cheeseburger . . .

    Gosh no, I don't see any sort of "rift".  I've come to view gluten sensitivity as a very broad spectrum of reactivity to gluten.  Gluten sensitivity is the big umbrella, so to speak.  Spread across this wide spectrum are a multitude of possible reactions to gluten.  One particular reaction on this spectrum is designated as celiac disease, which is specifically when gluten attacks the lining of your intestines, and can eventually lead to villous atrophy and leaky gut.  This type of damage is specific to celiac disease and won't occur in other parts of the non-celiac gluten sensitivity spectrum.   Celiac disease is believed to only be possible if you have one of the two identified celiac genes...DQ2 or DQ8.  If you don't have one of those genes, you most likely don't have celiac disease.  But this doesn't mean you don't have gluten sensitivity.  So celiac disease is a specific type of gluten sensitivity, basically.

    If you don't have celiac disease  but yet you have any of a wide variety of symptoms that can overlap with those of celiac disease (minus the villous atrophy part), then you more than likely have gluten sensitivity.  There are quite a few identified genes that are referred to as "gluten sensitivity pattern" genes.  Gluten could make you every bit as sick in so many different ways just as you would be with celiac disease (again, any number of reactions can occur except you wouldn't get the villous atrophy that occurs when you have the celiac gene).  There are over 200 different manifestations of effects of gluten sensitivity, most of which can be found in either celiac disease or in non-celiac gluten sensitivity.  

    Apparently not all gluten sensitivity related genes are as yet identified, and gluten sensitivity as a serious syndrome has not been studied all that intensively yet and not nearly enough is known about it.  Unlike celiac disease, there is not a blood test to identify non-celiac gluten sensitivity.  To further complicate things, it is sometimes difficult to get a positive celiac blood panel even though you are very sick and have the celiac gene and very well might have celiac disease.  There are several reasons for this kind of situation.  So diagnosis is often elusive, which is why they say it can take up to 11 years to be diagnosed properly!  Many doctors know only sketchy and vague information about celiac disease and its symptoms, and they can be even more clueless about gluten sensitivity.  For example....a doctor might test for celiac disease via the celiac blood panel, and the test comes out negative.  The doctor concludes you don't have celiac disease and you can eat gluten, and your symptoms must be from something else.  At this juncture they may not suspect gluten sensitivity precisely due to the lack of information on it.  

    However, it is very well possible that whether you have celiac disease or gluten sensitivity, the solution is the same:   your symptoms would be eliminated with the exact same protocol as with celiac disease:  eliminate all gluten from your diet.  Forever.

    NOTE:  I just realized the above posted comments related to a 2016 article ABOVE the comments (duh!), and now having read the article, I agree with its contents.  I do think that when you have symptoms which strongly suggest celiac disease (and/or gluten sensitivity) and you can't get a positive celiac blood test to confirm it (more common than people realize), it's a useful thing to get a gene test, which could at least rule out celiac disease and villous atrophy.  Apparently not everyone would agree a gene test is worth it, but I found it extremely useful as I've never had a positive blood panel.  The gene test gave me a better reason I should perhaps be on a gluten free diet.  But ultimately....the success of the gluten free diet is the ultimate arbiter of what is what.  If you get better gluten free, you have an answer and at least to me, I no longer feel driven to get a definite diagnosis of celiac disease....I now know that I have the DQ2 gene plus a gluten sensitivity pattern gene, and either way, if I don't want to be sick and don't want to get sicker, I must not eat gluten.  Simple as that.

     

    Edited by CMCM
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    Guest Vera's65

    Posted

    On 4/19/2016 at 10:37 AM, Guest Mary said:

    This article is great at explaining all aspects of the connection between celiac disease and gluten sensitivity.

    Many people don't realize that many prescription drugs contain gluten.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites



    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now

  • Get Celiac.com Updates:
    Support Celiac.com:
    Donate
  • About Me

    Dr. Rodney Ford M.D.

    Dr. Rodney Ford is a Pediatric Gastroenterologist. He was Professor of Pediatrics at the Christchurch School of Medicine. He runs the Children's Gastroenterology and Allergy Clinic in New Zealand. He has written a series of 7 books on gluten. His main theory is that symptoms from gluten reactions arise from brain and nerve damage. His latest book is "The Gluten Syndrome" which encapsulates current ideas and concepts of gluten and the harm that it does.


  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A17):
    Celiac.com Sponsor (A17):





    Celiac.com Sponsors (A17-M):




  • Related Articles

    Dr. Rodney Ford M.D.
    Celiac.com 07/15/2016 - This week I have noticed many blogs/articles claiming that the only illness that can be caused by gluten is celiac disease. Yes, they state that celiac disease alone needs a gluten-free diet. I totally disagree with this distorted out-of-date viewpoint. There are tens of millions of non-celiac people who testify that gluten causes them significant harm. It is my suspicion that the wheat lobby is cranking up these anti-gluten-free messages as a way of stopping wheat sales from slumping. Why else promote such a barrage of misinformation?
    As if to counter such negative press, I got this email last week:
    "Dear Dr Ford, since we had our appointment I have taken George off gluten and have noticed a huge difference in his behaviour. George is now a much more...


    Susan Costen Owens
    Celiac and the Inflammasome: Reasons for the Relevance of Oxalate and other Triggers
    Celiac.com 07/29/2016 - Celiac is an autoimmune condition, and along with other autoimmune diseases, scientists are beginning to have a larger context for understanding what could be contributing to its immune dysregulation. In the last decades we've seen diseases becoming prevalent now that look very different from the diseases of our ancestors. The American Autoimmune and Related Diseases Association lists 159 autoimmune diseases on their website (1), but most of these diseases are very new.
    In recent years, scientists began to identify and explore a new complex that was identified within our cells and belongs to our immunological line of defense. This new player is part of innate immunity, which is also called cell-mediated immunity. This is our body's rapid responder, and its approach...


    Dr. Rodney Ford M.D.
    How Early Can You Diagnose Celiac Disease?
    Celiac.com 10/12/2016 - How early can you diagnose celiac disease? This is a most challenging question for everyone: children, parents, pediatricians, gastroenterologists and many other health professionals. This is because, like so many other diseases, celiac disease is a progressive condition that slowly creeps up on you. In addition, there is disagreement about what constitutes a definitive diagnosis of celiac disease. What if the small bowel biopsy result is at odds to the blood test results?
    It is my opinion that the fundamental diagnostic requirements for celiac disease remain unresolved. This makes early diagnosis problematic!
    Do you keep waiting (whilst suffering from symptoms) for classic gut damage to be visible in a bowel biopsy before adopting a gluten-free diet? Or do...


  • Recent Activity

    1. - ABP2025 replied to ABP2025's topic in Celiac Disease Pre-Diagnosis, Testing & Symptoms
      15

      Guidance on next steps after the lab tests

    2. - ABP2025 replied to ABP2025's topic in Celiac Disease Pre-Diagnosis, Testing & Symptoms
      15

      Guidance on next steps after the lab tests

    3. - ABP2025 replied to ABP2025's topic in Celiac Disease Pre-Diagnosis, Testing & Symptoms
      15

      Guidance on next steps after the lab tests

    4. - Russ H replied to Pxidis's topic in Gluten-Free Foods, Products, Shopping & Medications
      9

      Grain fed cow milk vs 100% Grass fed cow milk

    5. - knitty kitty replied to Kiwifruit's topic in Celiac Disease Pre-Diagnosis, Testing & Symptoms
      5

      Years of testing - no real answers


  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A19):



  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      126,821
    • Most Online (within 30 mins)
      7,748

    Maclissa
    Newest Member
    Maclissa
    Joined

  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A20):


  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      120.9k
    • Total Posts
      69.7k

  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A22):





  • Celiac.com Sponsor (A21):



  • Popular Now

    • hmkr
      8
    • Sking
    • Kiwifruit
      5
    • DayaInTheSun
      4
    • ABP2025
      15
  • Popular Articles

    • Scott Adams
    • Scott Adams
    • Scott Adams
    • Scott Adams
    • Scott Adams
  • Upcoming Events

×
×
  • Create New...