Intestional Permability could a Vitamin Deficiency Cause It

[Posterboy]

To All,

Recently Cyclinglady asked me to find some cases (that were not Alcoholic) related and Pellagra and for the most part

it was as she suspected...this conditions exist in other diseases' ....not as a separate disease diagnosis...

I did find Pellagra in Sjorgens disease and Chrons' but not as the primary diagnosis...only as  a 2ndary associated condition.

But I found something I did not expect to find (nor was looking for) ....in someone who had (Alcoholic) Pellagra a study on

how a/the B-Vitamin Niacin can cause Intestinal Permeability to be reversed?

Here is the research entitled "Intestinal permeability and oxidative stress in patients with alcoholic pellagra." ....don't focus on the

Pellagra but the INTESTINAL permeability issues that develop when someone drinks alcohol and I was surprised to find a/the Vitamin Niacin was/could be used to reverse high Zonulin levels reversing intestinal permeability ....surely this study needs to be carried out in Celiacs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16713031

I will quote their conclusion, in part ....leaving out the Pellagra parts so as to not confuse anyone.

CONCLUSIONS:

"The results suggest that niacin ....could be important factors in increased intestinal permeability and decreased antioxidant conditions, recovering to normal values after treatment with niacin, associated to alcohol abstinence and a balanced diet."

 

This is similar to what we find in Chrons where Niacin has been shown to be helpful.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-01-bolster-fiber-role-colon-health.html 

What do other's think...is Zonulin/Niacin connected and if/so shouldn't this be tested in Celiac's???? to determine if this association

proves relevant/helpful also in NCGS/Celiac's.

Elevated Zonulin levels is now extensively being studied for Leaky Gut issues.

https://www.celiac.com/celiac-disease/celiac-disease-amp-related-diseases-and-disorders/irritable-bowel-syndrome-and-celiac-disease/elevated-serum-zonulin-in-ibs-correlates-with-stool-frequency-in-ibs-d-r4871/

Do you think a possible Zonulin/Niacin levels is also connected in Celiac's?

Let me know what you think.......as related research this seemed the proper place to share this old research newly rediscovered.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advice.

Posterboy,

[cyclinglady]

Adding niacin to the diet of a confirmed Pellegra patient could be helpful, but I have doubts.  The study was done in 2006.  Have further studies been done since then?  The study took place in Brazil where the chances of developing Pellegra are much greater than in the US where foods are fortified.  Finally, the study was super tiny with only 10 participants.  Making adjustments to your diet based on 10 people in the world is probably not a good idea.  Interesting though.  

The conclusion you quoted did say that added niacin, ceasing to drink alcohol and a balanced diet could help with intestinal permeability.  But I would think just ceasing alcohol and a good diet could do the same thing since you can get plenty of niacin through food.    Isn’t nice that celiacs can heal with just a dietary adjustment — no gluten?  A treated celiac would have NO risk of developing Pellegra in the US.   

Supplements, like medications, can have risks and niacin is not risk free:

https://livertox.nih.gov/Niacin.htm

If someone would like to supplement with Niacin (above the government RDA), they should consult with their doctor.  I would stick to safer alternatives which would be to stop drinking alcohol and eat a better diet (not sure this was possible for those patients in Brazil in 2006).  

The niacin and Crohn’s link?  Careful.  That study was just done on mice.  Better to wait to see how it works on people.  

I have not read much recently about zonulin.  Dr. Fasano’s team did discover it.  I wonder if they have figured out how to reduce zonulin (which is higher in celiacs) or have determined how to get the zonulin to work more efficiently.  For those who do not know about zonulin, you can read this link featuring Dr.  Fasano, a leading celiac expert and well respected by his peers.  

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/12/09/459061317/a-protein-in-the-gut-may-explain-why-some-cant-stomach-gluten

Interesting comments, Posterboy.  ?  Other than alcoholics, the risk of having or developing Pellegra in the US is just about zero.   Could it occur in IBD patients?   I suppose if they are untreated, are living in a third world country, and have been surviving on corn as their main food source.  

In general, Pellegra does not exist anymore in the United States.  The few cases that do exist seem to involve alcoholism which we know can impact your food choices and other life style choices.  

 

[kareng]

The problem with the internet is certainly clear in some “ research” people post.  Small case studies aren’t meant for the general public to make conclusions based on the findings.  Usually, they are meant for other actual medical/ scientific researchers to see and think “ hmmm.... is this worth pursuing further?  “.  Or they apply to a really small segment of the population and that is why there are only 10 people looked at.  Too bad they are now so available to desk chair “ researchers” to use to support their “ theories”.  

Also- you can’t expect to find Pellagra/vitamin deficiency  as a primary disease and list Celiac or Chrohns  as a secondary caused by it.  That is like saying a cough is the disease and it causes pneumonia.  As someone who has actually worked with medical researchers - if I ran conclusions like that - I would be fired.  

[knitty kitty]

Here's an article on some of niacin's effects on health....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5966847/

Perhaps niacin deficiency just goes by other names now...... 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7920332

Just like Celiac Disease used to be only diagnosed in thin, "wasting away" people and now includes people who are normal weight or heavier, maybe niacin deficiency symptoms have changed a bit, too.  Maybe niacin deficiency isn't full blown pellagra with dramatic changes because our Western diet is fortified and suboptimal amounts may still be absorbed and the course of the disease changes when a person receives a suboptimal amount instead of none at all.  Maybe doctors aren't knowledgeable about deficiency diseases because they are so rare in our modern world.  Maybe the preliminary symptoms of niacin deficiency are renamed to modern terms.  Maybe the dementia symptom of pellagra is now termed Alzheimer's or Parkinson's.  

Pellagra and Beriberi still do occur in bariatric surgery patients.  Maybe Pellagra is studied in relation to alcohol consumption because it's so easily recognizable in that context.  Maybe Pellagra still occurs but in other contexts it's missed altogether or misconstrued into something else, just like many Celiacs suffer for years misdiagnosed as IBS or depression or psychosomatic.....

I applaud PosterBoy's research.  Yes, sometimes it does seem to go out on a limb with rats and small case studies, but there's advances being made by looking at mice and small case studies and investigating those tiny clues....and it's a good thing to look at those tiny clues and go "Hmmmm..."  We didn't get to the moon overnight...it took a very long time from the Wright brothers to Van Braun's rockets....Maybe one day we'll know everything about Niacin and Celiac Disease, but for now we need to be supportive of each person's contribution toward dealing with Celiac Disease.  

Every one has a different experience with Celiac Disease.  Every one has different symptoms and the symptoms can change over time.  And some of us have experienced Pellagra first hand and know the truth.   

Knitty Kitty 

 

[kareng]

While I understand that small case and rat studies are very important to actual researchers - people googling and reading them need to be careful about coming to conclusions and giving “ medical advice” based on them.  

I do not consider googling to be medical research.  I think it can be helpful but it can also be confusing and sometimes dangerous when people don’t really understand what they are reading.

Of course people with things like active Celiac or Chrohns or Eating disorders or any other disease, condition, etc can have vitamin deficiencies.  Sometimes they are bad enough to need treatment.  Often, with Celiac , they will start to resolve as the intestines heal on a gluten-free diet.   

Also, I do not see any evidence that Pellegra causes Celiac and once cured , we have no more Celiac.  That seems to be a common theme in the OP’s previous postings and , to my reading, implied in this post.  Posting about niacin & niacin deficiencies does not change that.  

[knitty kitty]

The OP always includes " this is not medical advice" in his closings.  

Some of us are intelligent enough to connect the dots even though we don't have medical initials after our names. 

There is a strong correlation between loss of niacin and worsening of Celiac symptoms.  It might not be cause and effect.  It might be "which came first the chicken or the egg?", but there is definitely a connection.  

I admire people who keep an open mind, who can see possibilities, who can think outside of the box.  

Isn't that what we want? The possibility of correct diagnosis without languishing for years infirm and in pain because a medical professional with a closed mind dismissed Celiac Disease or deficiency diseases because that doesn't happen anymore in our well fed modern world? 

I think it's exciting to hear about these little pieces of information that show us baby step by baby step how the body's functions are affected by Celiac Disease.  These little snippets of information help us see the bigger picture.  Maybe in the future the snippets may have to be refined or corrected, but the point is we are learning more every day and maybe one day we will have a cure.  But for right now let those of us who like putting puzzles together contribute according to the gifts they were given.  

 

[Posterboy]

On 8/15/2019 at 8:50 AM, kareng said:

Of course people with things like active Celiac or Chrohns or Eating disorders or any other disease, condition, etc can have vitamin deficiencies.  Sometimes they are bad enough to need treatment.  Often, with Celiac , they will start to resolve as the intestines heal on a gluten-free diet.  

KarenG and Knitty Kitty,

I don't have time to answer this in more detail tonight ...but I will answer in a more complete, comprehensive way soon.

Celiac's nutrition does not always get better ...with time ...as we might think...if are nutrition is not better in two or three years then something else is causing it.

See this study about after 10 years many celiac's still have nutritional deficiencies.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1365-2036.2002.01283.x

granted this study did not study all the B-Vitamins and probably most importantly to this conversation both B-2 (Riboflavin) and B-3 (Niacin)....

But there has been studies about this topic ...and if Pellagra (B-3) deficiency or Pellagra Sine Pellagra (B-2) deficiency was triggering it ....you would expect these vitamins to still be low after several years... and that is exactly what the research literature shows....it does not prove causation...but it shows possible casual association.

Here is the research on the topic.

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(05)00193-9/fulltext

Pay attention especially to Table 2 that summarizes these findings.

I will quote below for easy reference.

Table 2Common Nutrient Deficiencies in Celiac Disease

At Diagnosisa	GFDa	gluten-free productsa	Long-term GFDb
Calorie/protein
Fiber	Fiber	Fiber	Fiber
Iron	Iron	Iron
Calcium	Calcium
Vitamin D	Vitamin D
Magnesium	Magnesium
Zinc
Folate, niacin, B12, riboflavin	Folate, niacin, B12, riboflavin	Folate, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin	Folate, niacin, B12 (w/supplements)

I quote this chart for easy reading. ..there are other studies that show not only Niacin but Riboflavin and Thiamine also being low ...longer term in celiacs without supplementation.

Here is the abstract ...it might answer this question more definitely ...but it is behind a pay wall and you cant' see the whole study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002822399002059?via%3Dihub

Knitty Kitty if you could find the full text and read/review or post it (or you kareng) I would love to know what they concluded.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

[kareng]

22 minutes ago, Posterboy said:

KarenG and Knitty Kitty,

I don't have time to answer this in more detail tonight ...but I will answer in a more complete, comprehensive way soon.

Celiac's nutrition does not always get better ...with time ...as we might think...if are nutrition is not better in two or three years then something else is causing it.

See this study about after 10 years many celiac's still have nutritional deficiencies.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1365-2036.2002.01283.x

granted this study did not study all the B-Vitamins and probably most importantly to this conversation both B-2 (Riboflavin) and B-3 (Niacin)....

But there has been studies about this topic ...and if Pellagra (B-3) deficiency or Pellagra Sine Pellagra (B-2) deficiency was triggering it ....you would expect these vitamins to still be low after several years... and that is exactly what the research literature shows....it does not prove causation...but it shows possible casual association.

Here is the research on the topic.

https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(05)00193-9/fulltext

Pay attention especially to Table 2 that summarizes these findings.

I will quote below for easy reference.

Table 2Common Nutrient Deficiencies in Celiac Disease

At Diagnosisa	GFDa	gluten-free productsa	Long-term GFDb
Calorie/protein
Fiber	Fiber	Fiber	Fiber
Iron	Iron	Iron
Calcium	Calcium
Vitamin D	Vitamin D
Magnesium	Magnesium
Zinc
Folate, niacin, B12, riboflavin	Folate, niacin, B12, riboflavin	Folate, thiamin, riboflavin, niacin	Folate, niacin, B12 (w/supplements)

I quote this chart for easy reading. ..there are other studies that show not only Niacin but Riboflavin and Thiamine also being low ...longer term in celiacs without supplementation.

Here is the abstract ...it might answer this question more definitely ...but it is behind a pay wall and you cant' see the whole study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002822399002059?via%3Dihub

Knitty Kitty if you could find the full text and read/review or post it (or you kareng) I would love to know what they concluded.

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

No.  Once again you have missed the whole point.  There is no reason for me to read stuff you google and claim is research.  

[Posterboy]

Cyclinglady, Knitty Kitty et al,

I agree more research and study needs to be done concerning this topic.

It is why I/we are having this/these discussion(s).

A good model is predictive or it has to be iterated...changed.

The difference between a hypothesis and theory ...is one works...it predicts outcomes.

Genetics doesn't include risk factor IE ...environmental triggers.

This article by Jefferson Adams sums it up well....the top ten risk factors.

we can add stress to that list...IE environmental factors

 Up to and including other viruses' ....like EBV as an example

https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l231

it is 50/50 genetics/risk factors.

and if our model is predictive we can add other risk factors as we find them....

If Pellagra is the primary cause then it too can be predicted...

as most of those following this thread know ....drinking alcohol is a risk factor for Pellagra.....but it is also a risk factor for Celiac' disease that is not well understood today.

Celiac.com did an article on the risk factor of drinking alcohol in Celiac's.

here we have Genes and Environment intersecting beautifully...

drinking alcohol doubles your risk for developing Celiac disease...

sounds and looks like Pellagra is mimicking Celiac disease too me...

and why we (mainly) only see Pellagra in Alcoholics and the Homeless today...

Because we only diagnose Pellagra when we can see it their faces (and) on the sun exposed area of the body.....by then the model is broken...and has been for some time.

Pellagra has an awareness and an image problem...the way Celiac disease did twenty years ago...

http://blogs.creighton.edu/heaney/2013/11/18/pellagra-and-the-four-ds/

Doctor's just don't recognize it soon enough ...until the patient is half-dead...drunk or homeless...

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

2 Timothy 2: 7 “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"

Posterboy by the grace of God,

[kareng]

Ok.  I will indulge you - Pellagra causes Celiac , Chrohns, etc..  Now - what causes Pellagra?  Is it a bacteria?  A virus?  An injection from an alien?  I eat plenty of Niacin & am not niacin deficient - so it’s not my diet.    I don’t take PPI’s like one of your “ theories”. What caused me to get this “Pellagra” that you say caused my Celiac disease?  And if I take an overdose of Niacin, does that mean I can now eat gluten with no Celiac effect?

[GFinDC]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra

I found this Wiki article on pellagra interesting.  They say pellagra was once at epidemic levels in the USA in the South where lots of corn was eaten.  Pellagra tended to follow corn around the globe.  Corn has a from of niacin in it that can't be digested.  So unless the corn is treated the people who depended on corn as a staple became deficient in niacin.

This epidemic of pellagra disappeared in the 1940's when they introduced vitamin supplements in foods in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_fortification

Niacin

Niacin has been added to bread in the US since 1938 (when voluntary addition started), a program which substantially reduced the incidence of pellagra.^[17] Pellagra was seen amongst poor families who used corn as their main dietary staple. Although corn itself does contain niacin, it is not a bioavailable form unless it undergoes nixtamalization (treatment with alkali, traditional in Native American cultures) and therefore was not contributing to the overall intake of niacin.^{[medical citation needed]}

Diseases associated with niacin deficiency include: Pellagra which consisted of signs and symptoms called the three D's-"Dermatitis, dementia, and diarrhea." Others may include vascular or gastrointestinal diseases.^[18] Common diseases which present a high frequency of niacin deficiency: alcoholism, anorexia nervosa, HIV infection, gastrectomy, malabsorptive disorders, certain cancers and their associated treatments.^[18

 

[kareng]

3 minutes ago, GFinDC said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra

I found this Wiki article on pellagra interesting.  They say pellagra was once at epidemic levels in the USA in the South where lots of corn was eaten.  Pellagra tended to follow corn around the globe.  Corn has a from of niacin in it that can't be digested.  So unless the corn is treated the people who depended on corn as a staple became deficient in niacin.

This epidemic of pellagra disappeared in the 1940's when they introduced vitamin supplements in foods in the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_fortification

Niacin

Niacin has been added to bread in the US since 1938 (when voluntary addition started), a program which substantially reduced the incidence of pellagra.^[17] Pellagra was seen amongst poor families who used corn as their main dietary staple. Although corn itself does contain niacin, it is not a bioavailable form unless it undergoes nixtamalization (treatment with alkali, traditional in Native American cultures) and therefore was not contributing to the overall intake of niacin.^{[medical citation needed]}

Diseases associated with niacin deficiency include: Pellagra which consisted of signs and symptoms called the three D's-"Dermatitis, dementia, and diarrhea." Others may include vascular or gastrointestinal diseases.^[18] Common diseases which present a high frequency of niacin deficiency: alcoholism, anorexia nervosa, HIV infection, gastrectomy, malabsorptive disorders, certain cancers and their associated treatments.^[18

 

Perfect!  It doesn’t say that a niacin deficiency/ Pellegra causes the malabsorption disorders or the HIV, etc.  

[cyclinglady]

Native Americans knew that adding ash to corn would improve the nutritional value of corn.  Too bad the poor Southerners did not know this very old trick.  

https://www.onondaganation.org/blog/2011/cooking-with-ashes/

A celiac who consumes a well-balanced gluten-free diet (taking care to avoid re-activating their celiac disease) should not need additional supplementation.  They should not be malnourished if they are being treated.    Some celiacs may continue to be malnourished if they have refractory celiac disease which is very rare.  Some celiacs will continue to make mistakes or even refuse to follow a gluten free diet.  In that case, additional supplements may be recommended by their physician.  Some celiacs may have concurrent health issues that can cause malabsorption.  Finally,  some celiacs may temporarily need supplements when they are first diagnosed.  

I know that I took iron supplements  for a few months per my doctor’s recommendation.  He ran a nutritional panel on me and I was only low on iron.  I supposed with time, I could have  done without the iron and I would have absorbed iron once my small intestine healed, but I was so anemic, I needed that iron to function.  Better and safer than a blood transfusion, in my opinion.  

 

[GFinDC]

9 hours ago, kareng said:

Perfect!  It doesn’t say that a niacin deficiency/ Pellegra causes the malabsorption disorders or the HIV, etc.  

Right, just the opposite.  The niacin deficiency is a result of these other diseases.

[kareng]

3 hours ago, GFinDC said:

Right, just the opposite.  The niacin deficiency is a result of these other diseases.

Unfortunately, Posterboy is convinced that “ Pellegra” is a disease that causes Celiac & more diseases.  

And  that is enough of this nonsense for me.  He has this on 2 different threads going at once and has successfully made this forum about his “ theories”.  People coming here for help or info on Celiac and how to eat will be chased away if all they see is this stuff.  This site was helpful to me as a newbie because I got practical info on how to live as a Celiac.  No one tried to argue that I didn’t have Celiac or that it could be cured with large amounts of something.  I got coping strategies, how to or not to eat out, how to shop, and support for feeling sad about the diagnosis.  I hope we can get back to that.  

[Posterboy]

14 hours ago, GFinDC said:

Right, just the opposite.  The niacin deficiency is a result of these other diseases.

GFinDC et Al,

Wikipedia is a good place to start...not end up.. (often).

I have thought about why other's can 't see Pellagra and I can...and it is because we are

looking in different places.....

In the literature classically "Pellagra" here after will and does only refer to skin eruptions/lesions etc.

In this narrow view...then Cyclinglady it absolutely correct....in the Western world ...

Celiac does not produce Pellagra or vice versa unless you include DH as a presenting symptom.

The problem Pellagra is triad of symptom's with the skin eruptions being a late stage presentation confirming the high clinical suspicion...

I think it proper to think of it in these terms Level 1, 2, 3 or as is used in Cancer. ..

Stage 1, 2, 3 etc.  in this analogy Pellagra (with Skin lesions) is stage 3 of the disease.

And NO Celiac's do not develop stage 3 pellagra normally...again unless you include DH as symptom in both diseases....as a possible dermatitis eruption of low niacin levels.

having said that what you find ....is terminology "Pellagra Like" state in HIV cases....

because they assign these lesion in advanced HIV to that disease and not a presenting symptom of Pellagra instead.....much like is done in other diseases...

Here is the original HIV research that links what they term "intracellular pellagra" to skin lesions in HIV patients... and yes the lesions reverse as expected if the lesions are from Pellagra being undiagnosed/misdiangosed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7611995

quoting their concluding statement in the abstract...

"We conclude that HIV induces a state of intracellular pellagra which is reversed by the administration of nicotinamide."

We see the same thing in DH....if the common DH (to both diseases) is caused by low intracelluar Niacinamide levels then DH can be put in to remission .....I didn't say cure.

Here is the research on it ....and it is recent.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30390734

People will question the number in the study 2 ...but you have to remember studies are like letters to congress....for every study written on the topic ....probably a thousand have been helped....there is actually an older study about this ...but I thought newer was better in this case...

They were actually doing this out of desperation and by accident (Many things are discovered this way) ...and was moved enough to go to the trouble to publish a study about it...they were so impressed with the results.

You want to recognize any disease as soon as you can...not in it's late stage...certainly you don't want to find out you have stage 3 cancer...well if the doctor's are diagnosing you with Pellagra because they can see it in your face and your hands and gloves....the gauntlet of Pellagra has reared it's nasty head.... and the doctor's didn't recognize it first two stages with GI problems....or depression (dementia or ataxias') etc....

they couldn't be sure (at least in the West) they won't diagnose you until your half-dead, drunk and homeless...and the 3 D ....skin lesions erupt confirming their clinical suspicion

the IJCD said the same thing about Pellagra connections in Celiac disease over 3 years ago now.

http://pubs.sciepub.com/ijcd/3/1/6/

quoting their discussion points on the this topic...

3. Pellagra and celiac disease

The two diseases can be connected in two aspects. 58% of pellagra patients were shown to have malabsorption and many had intestinal pathology on biopsies ^{[36, 37]}. Alternatively, Pellagra was described in celiac disease ^[38]. The skin manifestations in pellagra might have some additional etiologies, since multiple nutrient deficiencies are at the origin of the cutaneous manifestations in celiac disease. The following nutritional deficiencies inducing skin rashes, were describe in celiac disease: Zinc, Iron, Vitamin A, E, B12, niacin, folate, selenium and essential fatty acids ^{[39, 40]}.

I know I a good theory when I hear one....more studies need to be done to confirm this clinical suspicion....

GFinDC I need to stop for now...but every time I study something I learn something new and surprising....I knew about HIV connection before to "Pellagra Like states" but not for long...but on doing research on this discussion ....I found something I thought was interesting that you might like because you quoted the issue(s) of Pellagra/HIV and it's possible connection.

This article has a lot of earlier studies (summarized well) about how Niacinamide was used early on in Tubercolosis treatment and its possible use in HIV treatment but was rejected for a medicine....as Vitamin's often are today! it is entitled

"Nicotinamide: An Oral Antimicrobial Agent with Activity against Both Mycobacterium tuberculosis and Human Immunodeficiency Virus"

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/36/4/453/439703

As always I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

[GFinDC]

My understanding is DH is caused by IgA deposits in the skin, not by lack of niacin in the diet.  If you have some info that contradicts that I'd be glad to look at it.  By info I mean a  study showing niacin deficiency causes IgA deposits under the skin and DH blisters.  Otherwise I consider your claim that pellagra causes DH to be erroneous.

[ravenwoodglass]

6 hours ago, GFinDC said:

My understanding is DH is caused by IgA deposits in the skin, not by lack niacin in the diet.  If you have some info that contradicts that I'd be glad to look at it.  By info I mean a  study showing niacin deficiency causes IgA deposits under the skin and DH blisters.  Otherwise I consider your claim that pellagra causes DH to be erroneous.

I developed DH as a young child after being impaled. It was one of my first celiac symptoms. At that time I was eating lots of cereals and breads that were fortified. There is no way I was niacin deficient. Unfortunately we have two posters who seem to think that niacin is a cure-all for celiac. I do hope newbies are not mislead into thinking a few vitamins are going to 'cure' their celiac. There is no treatment for celiac other than the gluten free diet. Before folks start to take overdoses of vitamins they really need to have vitamin and mineral panels done by their doctor as overuse of some vitamins has it's own dangers.

[kareng]

I agree.  These theories are getting out of hand.  I hope new people will not be put off by this , but I fear some have.  ?

[knitty kitty]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/medgen/14368

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30390734

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10844495

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8445075

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15412276

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3418983/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/557289

ScienceDirect › article › pii › pdf
Nicotinic Acid Therapy of Dermatitis Herpetiformis - ScienceDirect.com

I don't think Niacin is a "cure-all" for Celiac.  I think Celiac Disease causes malabsorption which results in malnutrition.  Supplementing with Niacin, nicotine acid, nicotinamide helps repair skin in DH and helps alleviate intestinal damage.  

I think you would be wise to reevaluate your treatment of others. 

[kareng]

1 hour ago, knitty kitty said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/medgen/14368

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30390734

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10844495

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8445075

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15412276

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3418983/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/article-abstract/557289

ScienceDirect › article › pii › pdf
Nicotinic Acid Therapy of Dermatitis Herpetiformis - ScienceDirect.com

I don't think Niacin is a "cure-all" for Celiac.  I think Celiac Disease causes malabsorption which results in malnutrition.  Supplementing with Niacin, nicotine acid, nicotinamide helps repair skin in DH and helps alleviate intestinal damage.  

I think you would be wise to reevaluate your treatment of others. 

I didn’t say that you said that pellegra causes Celiac .  Sure Celiac can cause deficiencies but to say DH is not Celiac, it is Pellegra , is a bit of a stretch.  And you didn’t say that, I understand.  

[GFinDC]

23 hours ago, Posterboy said:

...

Celiac does not produce Pellagra or vice versa unless you include DH as a presenting symptom.

Wrong, celiac disease could cause pellagra because celiac causes malabsorption of many nutrients including B's and other vitamins and minerals.

....

And NO Celiac's do not develop stage 3 pellagra normally...again unless you include DH as symptom in both diseases....as a possible dermatitis eruption of low niacin levels.

DH is not a symptom of pellagra.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/856598/supplement-overdose-vitamin-liver

Overdosing on B-3 (niacin) can also cause bleeding in the brain per the linked article.  So, while it is ok to take in moderate amounts, taking too much niacin can be detrimental to health.

[squirmingitch]

6 hours ago, kareng said:

I agree.  These theories are getting out of hand.  I hope new people will not be put off by this , but I fear some have.  ?

This!!!!! A thousand times THIS!!!!!! I am positive this is off putting to new people. I'm not a new people & it's come very close to driving me away and I mean that with every fiber of my being. I see Posterboy & my mind screams. Here we go with the pellagra post again and if it isn't that, it's some other nutrient deficiency. He's so single minded too. He will. not. stop. It's as if he's a broken record that just keeps playing the same line over & over & over & over endlessly. It makes me crazy.

The kind part of me says that Posterboy is an honestly good person who really & truly has good intentions & just wants to help people. But poster boy, you have NO filter. You refuse to take NO. You refuse to read what people tell you & just keep hitting them over the head with your theory, hammering, hammering, hammering. Do you recall that I once went so far as to tell you to get lost, stop, go away, shut up, cease & desist? And it was as if I never typed that. You just kept right on like some crazed animal that just keeps coming after you over & over & over & over & over again. You need some help. You need some serious help. 

[squirmingitch]

On 8/20/2019 at 7:51 AM, kareng said:

 This site was helpful to me as a newbie because I got practical info on how to live as a Celiac.  No one tried to argue that I didn’t have Celiac or that it could be cured with large amounts of something.  I got coping strategies, how to or not to eat out, how to shop, and support for feeling sad about the diagnosis.  I hope we can get back to that.  

Ditto this! I will forever be grateful for this site for the reasons Karen has stated here.

[squirmingitch]

On 8/19/2019 at 10:21 PM, cyclinglady said:

Native Americans knew that adding ash to corn would improve the nutritional value of corn.  Too bad the poor Southerners did not know this very old trick.  

https://www.onondaganation.org/blog/2011/cooking-with-ashes/

Interesting! Just to add to this..... I am a suthunuh & mom always bought hominy grits. I knew what made hominy grits different than ordinary grits or rather I should say I knew what made hominy corn different because I asked & mom explained that hominy was treated with lye to soften it but I don't recall anything about the process allowing the niacin to be absorbed by our bodies. She may have said something about that but I was just too young to take it all in at that point. I would bet that she knew though because my mom was highly cognizant of the nutrients in different foods.

Also interesting to learn form the Wiki entry is that masa harina is made from hominy corn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominy