Question on Histamine and the Stomach

[CharlesBronson]

Hello All,

I had a pretty good period of fewer symptoms recently on a diet of chicken, beef, eggs, sweet potato, and bananas, but after eating avocado for a few days, I feel like I've been glutened (bed bound again) and my bathroom habits have worsened as well. 

I figured avocado would be a good food for a severe case of Celiac like mine, but then I found out that it's high in histamine (too late, of course). So my question is: can histamine make me feel this bad (to the point where I feel glutened) and change my bathroom habits (mimicking glutening)? 

If not, then I must have consumed gluten somehow. But, if it's the case that avocado/histamine can cause this level of distress, well, then I feel pretty defeated and I am fearful of anything I put in my mouth.

Thank you all for once gain hearing me out. 

[Ennis-TX]

From my freak allergies, I can tell you a histamine response can cause all kinds of issues mostly fatigue, brain fog, headaches, and the urge to vomit. I mostly feel out of it. I read some can have lower GI issues like cramping and Diarrhea. More severe issues start swelling in the throat/mouth/face and in my case forming of blood blisters/sores in the mouth.

I started taking a Daimine Oxidase (DAO) supplement to break down histamines to prevent it from overloading my system and it seems to reduce some types of reactions. It is handy if you eat quite a few high histamine foods. You could also just have a mild allergy to avocados in which case you need to avoid them regardless or risk more severe issues.

[knitty kitty]

Here's some articles for you....

https://mthfrsupport.com.au/2016/09/dao-deficiency-and-histamine-the-unlikely-connection/

And also.... symptoms of high histamine....

https://www.histaminintoleranz.ch/en/symptoms.html#uneinheitlich

High histamine levels are what you get when you ingest gluten, so, yes, eating high histamine foods (or histamine releasing foods) can cause the same symptoms as being glutened.  

Like Ennis, I get the digestive problems, headaches, brain fog, and also panic attacks,  stuffy head-sinusitis and insomnia.  

I made the same mistake with avocados when I first started my journey.  As Cycling Lady says "there's a learning curve!"  You'll get the hang of it!  So thankful for the help I've gotten here! 

In the first article, increasing your Vitamin C intake is recommended, and I've found that to be helpful.  Just don't eat citrus fruits to increase your Vitamin C because citrus fruits are histamine liberators.  As are bananas.  Learning curve experience there.  

Here's a list that I found helpful...

https://www.histamineintolerance.org.uk/about/the-food-diary/the-food-list/ 

Chicken causes digestive problems for me.  (Seems a protein in chicken meat is SIMILAR to a gluten protein, hence a reaction.)  But I can eat Cornish Game Hens, turkey and duck.  So you might want to switch to a less foul fowl.  Or try lamb, it's low histamine.

Vitamin C is water soluble, just like the eight essential B vitamins, and you need to have some every day.  Remember cooking destroys vitamins, so if you can't stomach raw veggies (shudder, learning curve flashback to raw broccoli --- very bad idea), ask your doctor about supplementing temporarily.  (And get checked for vitamin and mineral deficiencies.)  Stick to the AutoImmune Paleo diet crossed with the low histamine foods.  Stay away from processed foods until you're feeling better (this means at least three months).  And keep a food/mood/pooed journal.  This will help you pinpoint problematic foods.  It can also show your progress between learning curve experiences!   We're all here to help and support each other on our Celiac journey. 

Hope this helps! ?

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by knitty kitty
Typo

[CharlesBronson]

15 hours ago, knitty kitty said:

Here's some articles for you....

https://mthfrsupport.com.au/2016/09/dao-deficiency-and-histamine-the-unlikely-connection/

And also.... symptoms of high histamine....

https://www.histaminintoleranz.ch/en/symptoms.html#uneinheitlich

High histamine levels are what you get when you ingest gluten, so, yes, eating high histamine foods (or histamine releasing foods) can cause the same symptoms as being glutened.  

Like Ennis, I get the digestive problems, headaches, brain fog, and also panic attacks,  stuffy head-sinusitis and insomnia.  

I made the same mistake with avocados when I first started my journey.  As Cycling Lady says "there's a learning curve!"  You'll get the hang of it!  So thankful for the help I've gotten here! 

In the first article, increasing your Vitamin C intake is recommended, and I've found that to be helpful.  Just don't eat citrus fruits to increase your Vitamin C because citrus fruits are histamine liberators.  As are bananas.  Learning curve experience there.  

Here's a list that I found helpful...

https://www.histamineintolerance.org.uk/about/the-food-diary/the-food-list/ 

Chicken causes digestive problems for me.  (Seems a protein in chicken meat is SIMILAR to a gluten protein, hence a reaction.)  But I can eat Cornish Game Hens, turkey and duck.  So you might want to switch to a less foul fowl.  Or try lamb, it's low histamine.

Vitamin C is water soluble, just like the eight essential B vitamins, and you need to have some every day.  Remember cooking destroys vitamins, so if you can't stomach raw veggies (shudder, learning curve flashback to raw broccoli --- very bad idea), ask your doctor about supplementing temporarily.  (And get checked for vitamin and mineral deficiencies.)  Stick to the AutoImmune Paleo diet crossed with the low histamine foods.  Stay away from processed foods until you're feeling better (this means at least three months).  And keep a food/mood/pooed journal.  This will help you pinpoint problematic foods.  It can also show your progress between learning curve experiences!   We're all here to help and support each other on our Celiac journey. 

Hope this helps! ?

 

 

This is great information. Thank you Kitty!

I wonder why I don't get sick when I eat bananas everyday yet I try avocado and get sick? This is such a confusing process  After looking at a list of high/low histamine foods, I seem to be fine with some histamine foods (bananas, green beans), but others leave no doubt that they hurt me (spaghetti sauces, things in tins, mature cheeses, etc). 

Between worrying about gluten, grains, histamine and glutamate, I'm totally exhausted. Sorry for complaining. And thank you so much for the help. It's much appreciated

 

[knitty kitty]

Sometimes it's the amount of histamine that trips my reaction trigger.  Like you have a cup that is half full of histamine from the bananas, but the added avocado filled your cup up to overflowing and there's a reaction.  Every body is different and may tolerate different levels of histamine before it triggers a reaction.  

Yes, figuring out what's right for you can be taxing and frustrating, but stay with it.  You may feel like a guinea pig, but with your fmp journal, you will find out what works for you. 

It's worth all the frustration and limited diet at the beginning.  As you heal, you'll feel better and more confident.  And you will be able to expand your tolerated foods list.  It can take a few months, but you'll be off and running soon!

Best wishes!

 

[CharlesBronson]

2 hours ago, knitty kitty said:

Sometimes it's the amount of histamine that trips my reaction trigger.  Like you have a cup that is half full of histamine from the bananas, but the added avocado filled your cup up to overflowing and there's a reaction.  Every body is different and may tolerate different levels of histamine before it triggers a reaction.  

Yes, figuring out what's right for you can be taxing and frustrating, but stay with it.  You may feel like a guinea pig, but with your fmp journal, you will find out what works for you. 

It's worth all the frustration and limited diet at the beginning.  As you heal, you'll feel better and more confident.  And you will be able to expand your tolerated foods list.  It can take a few months, but you'll be off and running soon!

Best wishes!

 

Thank you so much for helping me out Kitty. 

Yes, I'd say a histamine threshold makes sense, and when I added avocado to my already daily banana intake, I must have gone way over my histamine threshold. 

Well, now that I know that avocado made me ill, I'm convinced that histamine is an issue for me. My diet was going well, I felt better, and then WHAM! a few avocado made me bed-ridden again. So... that means I'll be ditching bananas and substituting with something else.

I'll go over these histamine resources in depth this weekend and eat histamine free (or as close as I can get) for a while and see how it goes. 

Thanks again

[Ennis-TX]

Another aspect is it could be a sensitivity or intolerance to Avocados, you might have to try them again by themselves to figure that out. https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/are-food-sensitivities-for-life

 

[CharlesBronson]

Hello All,

Just looking for information on vitamins. Had some testing come back this week that my bone density is low, as is my B12 and D. So, I clearly need to supplement, but have read that it's hard to trust vitamin brands that say they're gluten free as their regulations are less strict. Is there a list of brands that are safe?

Also, I'm still a mess after this "avocado incident" which is very distressing. Mostly bed bound, in pain (especially after waking), and my bathroom habits are still off. This doesn't make any sense...  

[cyclinglady]

Why do you need to supplement?  I can understand Vitamin D, but by now you should be absorbing nutrients from your foods since it has been a year or so since you went gluten free.  (Is that correct?) You might very well need to supplement, but is celiac disease the root cause (either still active or refractory)?  I think you need to see your GI.  It might be another autoimmune disorder or illness.  

For example, I was not healing after a glutening.  My GI wanted to scope but I insisted on going on the Fasano diet.  That diet did not help because gluten was not the issue.  I had autoimmune gastritis as revealed by the gastric and small intestinal biopsies.  My celiac disease was in remission and I had healed but my stomach was a mess.  

 

[knitty kitty]

21 hours ago, CharlesBronson said:

Hello All,

Just looking for information on vitamins. Had some testing come back this week that my bone density is low, as is my B12 and D. So, I clearly need to supplement, but have read that it's hard to trust vitamin brands that say they're gluten free as their regulations are less strict. Is there a list of brands that are safe?

Also, I'm still a mess after this "avocado incident" which is very distressing. Mostly bed bound, in pain (especially after waking), and my bathroom habits are still off. This doesn't make any sense...  

CB, sorry to hear you're still having problems.  Deficiency of Vitamin B12 can cause diarrhea.  It's a frequently overlooked symptom. 

Did you discuss with your doctor what to do about the B12 deficiency? Shots or oral supplements?  Perhaps your doctor can refer you to a nutritionist or dietitian.  

You need B12 to help lower your histamine levels, so you need to include foods with lots of B12 like liver (my favorite). 

Have you been keeping a food journal?  Have you added any new foods that might have been irritating? 

As for which supplements that are gluten free, read the label.  I have found supplements that said they were gluten free, but had additives I didn't want either, like rice starch fillers or cellulose. 

Have you had any dental work done?  Had any anesthesia (injected or inhaled)?  These can affect your B12 level several months after they were administered.  Had any antibiotics or vaccines? Any medications?  These can affect your intestinal bacteria.  

You might want to revisit your doctor, as Cycling Lady suggested, to rule out anything more serious.

Found an article for you...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5292330/#!po=6.25000

Hope this helps!

K

 

 

[notme]

food/mood/pooed - I love it, kk lolz

I have to take zyrtek and acid reducer at night, Flonase and Xanax (very small amount does the trick) in the morning, and use nasalcrom before eating.  this, plus strict gluten free diet has done wonders for my digestion/energy/overall LIFE.  look into something called mast cell activation syndrome (or also called disorder) it seems they are onto something there.  I seem to be at the milder end of the spectrum, but until I started experimenting with histamine blockers, etc, I was not progressing.  knitty kitty has the right idea with the food journal, I use the app my fitness pal to keep track of what goes in my mouth if i'm trying to figure out what is bothering me, easy when you're out and about because it's on the phone.  my vitamin levels are fine without supplementing anything, just eating clean.  I can even sneak some chocolate in from time to time.  try eating some activia to boost your gut flora.  good luck!  it can be regulated, everybody's different.  oh, also, I take about a tablespoon of psyllium husk (mix into my morning tea) every morning, makes everything more 'regular'  - after 10 years post dx, I can definitely say that just gluten-free was not the whole solution for me, might not be for you, too.  ps - my gi doc doesn't 'believe' in mcas, so I don't know how much help you will find from your doctor.  I still go to him, I tell him i'm feeling great, he thinks I just wear lucky socks.  (well, I DO, lolz)   everything I use to control the histamines except the Xanax is over the counter stuff.  

 

[cyclinglady]

1 hour ago, notme! said:

food/mood/pooed - I love it, kk lolz

I have to take zyrtek and acid reducer at night, Flonase and Xanax (very small amount does the trick) in the morning, and use nasalcrom before eating.  this, plus strict gluten free diet has done wonders for my digestion/energy/overall LIFE.  look into something called mast cell activation syndrome (or also called disorder) it seems they are onto something there.  I seem to be at the milder end of the spectrum, but until I started experimenting with histamine blockers, etc, I was not progressing.  knitty kitty has the right idea with the food journal, I use the app my fitness pal to keep track of what goes in my mouth if i'm trying to figure out what is bothering me, easy when you're out and about because it's on the phone.  my vitamin levels are fine without supplementing anything, just eating clean.  I can even sneak some chocolate in from time to time.  try eating some activia to boost your gut flora.  good luck!  it can be regulated, everybody's different.  oh, also, I take about a tablespoon of psyllium husk (mix into my morning tea) every morning, makes everything more 'regular'  - after 10 years post dx, I can definitely say that just gluten-free was not the whole solution for me, might not be for you, too.  ps - my gi doc doesn't 'believe' in mcas, so I don't know how much help you will find from your doctor.  I still go to him, I tell him i'm feeling great, he thinks I just wear lucky socks.  (well, I DO, lolz)   everything I use to control the histamines except the Xanax is over the counter stuff.  

 

Mast Cell Activation Syndrome is real.  Sorry your doctor thinks it is not pursuing. But I guess unless you have daily severe reactions, there is nothing medical staff can really do.   I get MCAS reactions (like passing out, hives, swelling, vomiting, etc.).  I do have a standing order at the local ER for testing, but have not had to go in in the past two years.    My allergist thinks my case is mild.  Most of my reactions are for insect bites and medications.  Antihistamines help.    Took those daily.  Now?  I take nothing.  Even the old seasonal allergies are gone or greatly diminished.  

I strongly think all hypersensitivities (four types) are linked.  This explains it well:

https://www.amboss.com/us/knowledge/Hypersensitivity_reactions

Calm down one and they all diminish.  That means as long as I remain gluten free, they will not be triggered or the chances of them being triggered are greatly reduced.  It has been over two years since my last gluten exposure.  What a difference!  

But you already know this, NotMe!  It is worth repeating for new members.  ? 

 

[CharlesBronson]

Hello All

Thank you once again for the replies. I'm grateful.

I'd sure love to get another GI scope but I cannot get in to see my GI doc  until May at the earliest. I basically get to see him once a year now, so it's borderline useless. I was referred to a Celiac specialist nutritionist here and it was a joke. She basically said anything with a gluten-free label is safe, and I know from my experience that's not true. My GI doc has the same opinion, and it's just not worth arguing with them. I'm thinking the health care in my area is really bad. 

I do have an open-minded pain clinic doctor, however, and she just just sent me for blood work regarding mast cell activation disorder, so I should know soon whether I have it or not.

My B12 was just a little low, so I'm taking 1000mcg tablets for a short while until my next round of blood work. No dental work or injections, and the only medication I'm on is Prozac (which I'm sure is not helping my stomach at all) but I'm not well enough to taper off it yet either. It's so frustrating. I was put on it for pain, it never worked, and now I'll go into withdrawals coming off it. Grrrrrr! 

Yes I started a food journal too (food, mood, poo'd). 

I guess I'll just have to wait until I see the GI doc again to ask for a follow up scope of my guts. 

Thank you

[MisterSeth]

from what I see most of your calories are still coming from fat and you might not be getting much fibre at all. 

https://www.bodyenergyclub.com/products/protein-gummies-wild-blueberry-w-100687

don't know if thats a good site to order them, but those gummies are full of fibre and its all fruit-based. makes my stool the size of a babies arm

[knitty kitty]

On 1/20/2020 at 10:12 PM, CharlesBronson said:

Hello All

Thank you once again for the replies. I'm grateful.

I'd sure love to get another GI scope but I cannot get in to see my GI doc  until May at the earliest. I basically get to see him once a year now, so it's borderline useless. I was referred to a Celiac specialist nutritionist here and it was a joke. She basically said anything with a gluten-free label is safe, and I know from my experience that's not true. My GI doc has the same opinion, and it's just not worth arguing with them. I'm thinking the health care in my area is really bad. 

I do have an open-minded pain clinic doctor, however, and she just just sent me for blood work regarding mast cell activation disorder, so I should know soon whether I have it or not.

My B12 was just a little low, so I'm taking 1000mcg tablets for a short while until my next round of blood work. No dental work or injections, and the only medication I'm on is Prozac (which I'm sure is not helping my stomach at all) but I'm not well enough to taper off it yet either. It's so frustrating. I was put on it for pain, it never worked, and now I'll go into withdrawals coming off it. Grrrrrr! 

Yes I started a food journal too (food, mood, poo'd). 

I guess I'll just have to wait until I see the GI doc again to ask for a follow up scope of my guts. 

Thank you

Hi there. 

Work on getting your Vitamin D levels up.  I found a daily dose raised my level faster than once a week.  Vitamin D will help with the depression, too, making it easier to wean off antidepressants.  

Vitamin D will also help calm down your intestinal tract.  I found an article for you...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4412886/

Glad to hear you're taking a B12 supplement.  You might want to consider taking a B Complex as well.  The eight essential B vitamins need each other to work effectively.  The B vitamins are water soluble and are excreted easily in prolonged diarrhea.  You can reach a subclinical deficiency in 2 to 3 weeks.  And magnesium is needed for some of the B vitamins to work, too.  Prozac can deplete magnesium and B6 (pyridoxine).  

You're going through a bumpy bit right now, but keep peddling!  Give the vitamins some time to work their magic.  Keep up your food, mood, poo'd journal (thanks for the apostrophe!) And you'll soon start to see differences.  

Hope this helps!

[BuddhaBar]

I've never been able to eat avocado without getting severe stomach cramps and watery diarrhea 5-6 hours after I've eaten it. The avocado sickness is so severe I can only compare it to food poisioning.