Sourdough And Celiacs

[trents]

Have any of you read or heard that the microbial process involved in producing sourdough bread renders it safe for consumption by Celiacs? I ran across this idea this summer on the internet. Here is an excerpt from a sourdough noodle recipe where the author makes the claim:

"The digestibility of these dumplings was also a noticeable virtue; they were very light on the stomach while at the same time satisfying to eat. For this toothsome aspect we can thank the lactic acid bacteria at work on the flour from the whey. Not only are anti-nutrients such as phytic acid neutralized by the acidic long soaking period, but recent research has shown that the lacto-bacilli present in sourdough cultures effectively neutralize the toxic components of the wheat gluten molecule responsible for the allergic reaction in celiac-sprue sufferers.1 Mere soaking with the addition of acetic acid showed no effect on the gluten molecule. This discovery is truly exciting for those who are gluten-intolerant, as it may be the door to food that is traditionally prepared and safe to eat, with the welcome bonus of being both tasty and extra-nutritious. The lacto-bacteria in a sourdough culture can be boosted by the addition of whey (in place of water) for baking bread, and as the liquid component of noodle dough, as we see in this traditional recipe for pel’meni." http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/s...gg_noodles.html

I thought it was just anecdotal quackery but found the article she referenced and found it to be a scientific abstract supporting these claims: http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/68/2/623

Can anybody shed some light on this idea?

[lonewolf]

I've read a lot about this. I'm assuming you read an article and recipe by Sally Fallon, who is the chairman of the Weston A. Price organization. I think that the reason we have so much trouble with Celiac and gluten intolerance is that we don't soak and then ferment (sourdough is basically fermented grain) our grains like traditional cultures did. That said, I don't think I'd eat gluten-filled sourdough bread at this point. There are people who believe, based on research, that no one should eat unsoaked grains, whether they are sensitive to gluten or not. We're too busy to prepare food in the traditional ways, so we're suffering the consequences.

It would be interesting to do a study on this.

[trents]

I've read a lot about this. I'm assuming you read an article and recipe by Sally Fallon, who is the chairman of the Weston A. Price organization. I think that the reason we have so much trouble with Celiac and gluten intolerance is that we don't soak and then ferment (sourdough is basically fermented grain) our grains like traditional cultures did. That said, I don't think I'd eat gluten-filled sourdough bread at this point. There are people who believe, based on research, that no one should eat unsoaked grains, whether they are sensitive to gluten or not. We're too busy to prepare food in the traditional ways, so we're suffering the consequences.

It would be interesting to do a study on this.

Yes, the article was from the archives of the Weston Price Foundation but was actually authored by a Katherine Czapp. If we moderns have traditional ways of preparing our food, less healthy though they be, then that must make us a traditional culture, but I think I know what you meant.

[lonewolf]

You might be interested in reading the book, "Nourishing Traditions" By Sally Fallon.

[cgilsing]

I think my mom has undiagnosed Celiac disease, or at least a gluten sensitivity. She normally has a strong enough reaction from bready food that she knows what did it to her. She normally will not eat cake, cookies, breads, crackers, etc. And she only cooks with rice flour. However she doesn't have a strong enough reaction to things like cream soups, or processed ingredients to quit using them. Anyways...she and my dad took a trip to Germany last summer and she says the whole time she was there she ate the breads and baked goods and never really had a problem. I have wondered if something was different about the grain that they used to bake with. Does anyone know if they soak their grain in Europe?

[Guest Robbin]

My son is allergic to many raw vegetables and fruits. We noticed that when he would eat certain vegetables raw, he would itch around his mouth but if he had the same thing cooked he wouldn't be bothered. I mentioned this when we took him to an allergist to be tested and he said that the chemical changes in the vegetables when cooked render them ok for him. Using this reasoning, even though celiac is not an allergy, perhaps this is true. I absolutely love sourdough bread, but hate being sick more. Afraid to risk it! I'll wait till more research is done, but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

[Guest nini]

I think my mom is also an undiagnosed Celiac, but she makes sourdough bread just about every week and eats it with no problems. She says that other baked goods do bother her, but not the sourdough. Gosh, wouldn't it be nice if we could eat yummy sourdough bread?

[munchkinette]

You know, I was eating a lot of sourdough last week when I had to eat gluten. (Thank goodness that is over.) Now that I think about it, my sandwiches (with sourdough) didn't make me feel tired or sick like the bagels and pizza did. The other big difference was that I was eating lots of meat at the same time as the sourdough. I only fell asleep in the middle of the afternoon on the days that I had the bagels and pizza.

Is it possible to make a gluten-free sourdough bread? I have no idea what the sourdough starter is.

[Mongoose]

Is it possible to make a gluten-free sourdough bread? I have no idea what the sourdough starter is.

Can't imagine why it would not be possible. It even sounds like an interesting opportunity. I'm pretty close to yeast-free or I'd give it a try myself -- maybe I will do that anyway.

Come to think of it, injera, which is an Ethiopian pancake-like flat bread made from teff, is a sourdough bread that ferments overnight. Check any sourdough starter recipe -- http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/bread...-sourdough.html, this one for instance -- and where it says to use flour then substitute in some nice flour like sorghum, or else whatever gluten-free blend you typically use.

Hmm -- there is also a fermented Indian pancake called dosas made from lentils and rice. There are several recipes on the web (http://www.somacon.com/p269_80.php for instance, but I mill my own urad dal flour) and these are gluten-free.

Back in the old days (pre-gluten-free) I would make sourdough bread from starter that I kept in the refrigerator. Didn't use a recipe as my hands would tell me when the dough was ready. Since giving up wheat I haven't had the heart to take up yeast bread baking in the way that I used to, although the discussion here on sourdough makes me long to do it again.

[Rusla]

I think in the Betty Hagman Breads and Buns book there is a recipe for Sourdough. My favorite bread, when I ate bread was Sourdough.

[Guest Robbin]

YES! in the GLUTEN-FREE GOURMET-revised edition by Bette Hagman there IS a sourdough recipe! I just got the book over the weekend and didn't read all of it yet. It is on p. 58. I will try it next week. I'll let everyone know how it compares. I'll make the starter today (Thurs) and let it sit for the weekend. Yay!

[munchkinette]

Oh cool, that's the one gluten-free cookbook I have so far! I'll have to look into that.

[Jean-Luc]

Thanks for the tip on the Bette Hagman books. I went to Barnes and Noble last night and they have four different books from her. Read through some of the recipes with my wife, they sound great.

Since I do a majority of the cooking in the house, this will make it easier.

[Electra375]

Just a note about Sour Dough -- you need a natural sour dough starter for real sour dough with no commercial yeast. This takes a few days to make.

Nourishing Traditions has a recipe in it for Millet bread, I think. It uses Lacto-fermenation using the whey from diary to begin the starter. I returned the book to the library, so a friend could check it out. I'll get my turn again soon. We both get raw organic dairy from a local farm and have both had 'whey' happen, but didn't know what to do with it.

A Macrobiotic cook book I have, called Cooking the Whole Foods Way by Christina Pirello has the following starter --

3 cups spring or filtered water and 2 cup flour placed in a stone or glass jar or starter crock,mixed well and loosely covered

Set in warm place for 2 - 5 days, when it starts to bubble and smell sour, stir, cover and refrigerate.

You will need to feed the starter about every 2 wks

-- 1part starter, 1part water, and 1-2 cups flour allow to stand in warm place for 24 hours and then return to refrigerator.

The water used can get a jump start by soaking dried organic fruit in the water, I do this verse plain water, remove the fruit peices before adding the flour. I have not done this with gluten-free flours.

The results of sour dough with wheat are tricky, the breads rise less and are a bit more dense. I have used the method above and the results I acheived were not spectacular, not terrible, but not fluffy, they are heavy. Since the rise and fluff is what gluten-free flours have trouble with, well, this could be quite challenging. As well as the wet to dry ratios for just the right consistancy in a gluten-free loaf, since the starter is wet.

Bette Hagman's Sour Dough recipes all call for Yeast -- a TRUE and REAL sour dough bread is not made with Commerical yeast. And the health benefits of sour dough are not acheived in using commercial yeast.

If all you want is the taste, then the BH recipe is a go, if you want the health benefits of Natural Sour Dough, well, get out a big jar and start fermenting some flour... While that is going, find a recipe or two for natural sour dough starter bread and prepare to play... Not something I'm ready to do yet myself, seeing how I just recently perfect how to cook gluten-free bread -- 4" round glass tubual pan for even baking!!!

http://www.cybermacro.com/

http://www.cybermacro.com/pages/userpages/brucewalk.html

This page here called Bruce's Daily Bread which was a very down to earth real easy to read explaination of sour dough, wheat based mind you.

[Mom031988]

I was diagnosed with celiac four year ago and really miss my bread. I have been reading a lot about sourdough bread and how celiacs may be able to eat it. I tried and made a loaf last week and have not had any problems that I normally have after eating something with gluten in it, i.e. extreme tiredness, achy joints, and diarrhea. A friend told me they think it is just in my head that I told myself I will not have a reaction but I don't think this is possible. I am making another batch of starter this week and will bake another loaf next week.

[Victoria1234]

1 hour ago, Mom031988 said:

I was diagnosed with celiac four year ago and really miss my bread. I have been reading a lot about sourdough bread and how celiacs may be able to eat it. I tried and made a loaf last week and have not had any problems that I normally have after eating something with gluten in it, i.e. extreme tiredness, achy joints, and diarrhea. A friend told me they think it is just in my head that I told myself I will not have a reaction but I don't think this is possible. I am making another batch of starter this week and will bake another loaf next week.

The study showing celiacs not being affected by the bread ate a VERy specific type of sourdough. Sadly I couldn't find the original study, but just a summary.

These results showed that a bread biotechnology that uses selected lactobacilli, nontoxic flours, and a long fermentation time is a novel tool for decreasing the level of gluten intolerance in humans.

[Ennis-TX]

Early on in my bakery days with gluten free, I did a experiment using Greek yogurt in the bread to and a extract I had found to make a type of sour dough knock off the texture was more cake like and soft.
I do have a theory on making a new version, but the process of of making it gives a high chance for food poisonings.

[Grammy654]

I took my great grandmothers starter (wheat) & fed it sorghum flour & or rice flour. i ordered one of those elisa(?) tests & my starter passed gluten-free with flying colors. BUT my sourdough bread does not quite taste like the sourdough I used to make with wheat. i wish i could use millet because it would be better tasting bread (thyroid problems). 

Edited October 7, 2017 by Grammy654

[psawyer]

This topic, which was revived today, is more that ten years old. Most of the original participants have not visited the board in many years. FYI

[cyclinglady]

Are you guys kidding?  This topic about sourdough bread has been floating around the internet for years.  It is not advisable for a celiac to consume sourdough bread made with wheat.  Read what the Gluten Free Watchdog has to say:

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/product/dan-the-baker-country-sour-bread-not-labeled-gluten-free/333

https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-disease-news/Celiac-Disease-in-the-News-article/1395/postid--15583/

 

 

[kiwifruta]

I’ve been trying a refrigerated 3 day bulk ferment of white wheat flour sourdough with success. I’m gluten intolerant, there are celiacs in the extended family. With a 2 day refrigerated bulk ferment I felt some reaction unlike the 3 day ferment.

 

I first learned about it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/comments/cko3x8/72_bulk_ferment_turned_out_nice_made_it_last/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

I suspect what is happening is the water is activating enzymes which are then breaking the bond between the gluten and the starch. I read iof another study in the book ‘Breaking the vicious cycle” https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Vicious-Cycle-Intestinal-Through/dp/0969276818/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=breaking+the+vicious+cycle+by+elaine+gottschall&qid=1577352226&sprefix=breaking+the+vici&sr=8-2, where celiacs were fed wheat products that had had the gluten separated from the starch and there were no reported negative effects. 
 

Here is a great scientific explanation with the role of water and enzymes in the production of bread. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/enzymes-the-little-molecules-that-bake-bread/

 

 

 

[squirmingitch]

OMG! So you base this on one person on Reddit who made sourdough bread said they can eat it??? First off, that person says they have a gluten ALLERGY. There is NO such thing as a gluten ALLERGY. Secondly, YOU are not celiac, you state yourself that you are gluten intolerant, you do not state how you come to that conclusion.

You suspect....... wow, great, let's all kill ourselves on your suspicion. 

Here, read a real scientific study but read the entire thing carefully, don't just skim it.

https://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(10)00987-0/pdf

SOURDOUGH BREAD IS NOT SAFE FOR CELIACS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also, read this:

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/news/sourdough-wheat-bread-is-not-safe-for-folks-with-celiac-disease/#comments

[kareng]

4 hours ago, kiwifruta said:

I’ve been trying a refrigerated 3 day bulk ferment of white wheat flour sourdough with success. I’m gluten intolerant, there are celiacs in the extended family. With a 2 day refrigerated bulk ferment I felt some reaction unlike the 3 day ferment.

 

I first learned about it here. https://www.reddit.com/r/Sourdough/comments/cko3x8/72_bulk_ferment_turned_out_nice_made_it_last/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

I suspect what is happening is the water is activating enzymes which are then breaking the bond between the gluten and the starch. I read iof another study in the book ‘Breaking the vicious cycle” https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Vicious-Cycle-Intestinal-Through/dp/0969276818/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?keywords=breaking+the+vicious+cycle+by+elaine+gottschall&qid=1577352226&sprefix=breaking+the+vici&sr=8-2, where celiacs were fed wheat products that had had the gluten separated from the starch and there were no reported negative effects. 
 

Here is a great scientific explanation with the role of water and enzymes in the production of bread. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/enzymes-the-little-molecules-that-bake-bread/

 

 

 

Have fun making bread but it is still not gluten-free for Celiacs.

gluten-free wheat starch is a thing but it is not what you are playing with by fermenting bread.  So trying to say it’s the same thing is incorrect.  

[kiwifruta]

8 hours ago, kareng said:

Have fun making bread but it is still not gluten-free for Celiacs.

gluten-free wheat starch is a thing but it is not what you are playing with by fermenting bread.  So trying to say it’s the same thing is incorrect.  

I wasn't suggesting it was gluten free, nor was I referring to gluten-free wheat starch.

Edited December 26, 2019 by kiwifruta

[GFinDC]

Hi kiwifruta,

This video from America's Test Kitchen might be interesting to you.  They show how to remove the starch from gluten dough by washing it away with water.  So you are left with a pure gluten residue.

You could try this with your sourdough and see how much gluten you end up left with after washing the starch out.  That seems like it would give you a rough idea of how much gluten your breads have in them.  It's not a hard or complicated process to do.  I am curious what you would find if you are willing to try it?  Thanks ! 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by GFinDC