Sourdough And Celiacs

[squirmingitch]

Great video!!!! Thanks GFinDC.

[cyclinglady]

1 hour ago, GFinDC said:

Hi kiwifruta,

This video from America's Test Kitchen might be interesting to you.  They show how to remove the starch from gluten dough by washing it away with water.  So you are left with a pure gluten residue.

You could try this with your sourdough and see how much gluten you end up left with after washing the starch out.  That seems like it would give you a rough idea of how much gluten your breads have in them.  It's not a hard or complicated process to do.  I am curious what you would find if you are willing to try it?  Thanks ! 

 

 

The video indicated that the least amount of gluten was found in cake flour.  Normally, you do not bake bread with cake flour.  It is for delicate cakes that do not require kneading or rising before baking.   I can not image trying cake flour in a sourdough recipe — maybe all purpose, but not cake flour. 

 Maybe @kiwifrutais not gluten intolerant and has a FODMAP issue instead.  If so, her sourdough recipe might be easier for her to digest.  

I think members are a bit upset because anyone who has celiac disease should not consume sourdough bread made with wheat flour.  Look at what the Gluten Free Watchdog has to say about sourdough bread — regardless of fermentation.  This is based on actual lab testing to measure gluten.  All the celiac research centers and organizations do not recommend consuming any sourdough bread.  Remember, if you have celiac disease, you can not measure damage based on symptoms.  It is all about intestinal damage.  Some celiacs are asymptomatic.  Some symptoms change.  

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/news/sourdough-wheat-bread-is-not-safe-for-folks-with-celiac-disease/

https://www.beyondceliac.org/celiac-news/product-alert-dan-the-baker-sourdough-bread-is-not-gluten-free-despite-its-sourdough-for-celiacs-claim/

https://www.glutenfreeliving.com/gluten-free-foods/diet/is-sourdough-bread-gluten-free/

Bottom line:

If you have celiac disease, do not eat any bread make with wheat, barley or rye flour.  

[GFinDC]

I don't think sourdough bread is safe for celiacs either.  One of the commenters on the reddit thread was saying that if the bread rises, then it has gluten in it.  That makes sense.  After all the gluten is what causes the bread to rise in concert with the gas from the yeast.  If there wasn't any gluten in the sourdough bread it wouldn't rise and would be flat like a cracker or come out like a brick.  Nobody would want to eat it then.  So I think that is evidence there is still gluten in the sourdough bread.

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by GFinDC

[kiwifruta]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:40 AM, squirmingitch said:

OMG! So you base this on one person on Reddit who made sourdough bread said they can eat it??? First off, that person says they have a gluten ALLERGY. There is NO such thing as a gluten ALLERGY. Secondly, YOU are not celiac, you state yourself that you are gluten intolerant, you do not state how you come to that conclusion.

You suspect....... wow, great, let's all kill ourselves on your suspicion. 

Here, read a real scientific study but read the entire thing carefully, don't just skim it.

https://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(10)00987-0/pdf

SOURDOUGH BREAD IS NOT SAFE FOR CELIACS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also, read this:

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/news/sourdough-wheat-bread-is-not-safe-for-folks-with-celiac-disease/#comments

Thankfully, we have your comment as an example of the belligerent consequences of erroneously inferring that when a gluten intolerant person is adding something that hasn’t yet been brought up in conversation by way of sharing a couple of experiences and their current understanding of the role of water and enzymes regarding gluten in slow (cold) fermentation bread production that the gluten intolerant person is making a recommendation to celiacs.

[kiwifruta]

On 12/27/2019 at 1:40 AM, squirmingitch said:

OMG! So you base this on one person on Reddit who made sourdough bread said they can eat it??? First off, that person says they have a gluten ALLERGY. There is NO such thing as a gluten ALLERGY. Secondly, YOU are not celiac, you state yourself that you are gluten intolerant, you do not state how you come to that conclusion.

You suspect....... wow, great, let's all kill ourselves on your suspicion. 

Here, read a real scientific study but read the entire thing carefully, don't just skim it.

https://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565(10)00987-0/pdf

SOURDOUGH BREAD IS NOT SAFE FOR CELIACS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Also, read this:

https://www.glutenfreewatchdog.org/news/sourdough-wheat-bread-is-not-safe-for-folks-with-celiac-disease/#comments

My reply to your points 

1) I said I ‘first learned about it’ on the linked reddit post, don’t know where you got the ‘base this on’ idea from.

2) Yes, I’m not celiac, why you believe I implied that celiacs are safe to eat bread made this way, is beyond me.

3) gluten intolerance, blood tests by a laboratory and results interpreted by nutritional doctor.

4) I suspect, yes as in a hypothesis yet to be proven. That is, it’s not a proven fact. Are we not supposed to discuss ideas on this forum? (Rhetorical question)

 

[kiwifruta]

On 12/27/2019 at 12:22 PM, GFinDC said:

Hi kiwifruta,

This video from America's Test Kitchen might be interesting to you.  They show how to remove the starch from gluten dough by washing it away with water.  So you are left with a pure gluten residue.

You could try this with your sourdough and see how much gluten you end up left with after washing the starch out.  That seems like it would give you a rough idea of how much gluten your breads have in them.  It's not a hard or complicated process to do.  I am curious what you would find if you are willing to try it?  Thanks ! 

 

 

Nice video thanks. Looks like the water activated enzymes worked quickly to separate the starch and gluten. 
 

I’m happy to give the test a go,  over a 7(?) day period, but it’ll need to wait until January sometime.

What are you wanting to validate? My original comment wasn’t explicitly nor implicitly stating  that a 3 day cold/slow fermentation destroys gluten.

 

 

 

 

[GFinDC]

8 hours ago, kiwifruta said:

Nice video thanks. Looks like the water activated enzymes worked quickly to separate the starch and gluten. 
 

I’m happy to give the test a go,  over a 7(?) day period, but it’ll need to wait until January sometime.

What are you wanting to validate? My original comment wasn’t explicitly nor implicitly stating  that a 3 day cold/slow fermentation destroys gluten.

Hi Kiwifruta,

I am just curious if the 3 day fermentation actually reduces the gluten content of the dough significantly.  I'd never try eating it myself since I do have celiac disease.  But I can see where a gluten intolerant person with NCGS (non-celiac gluten sensitive) might be able to.  The reactions in NCGS are not known to be immune related like in celiac disease.  As CL mentioned the NCGS reaction may be a FODMAP reaction.  At least that's what some researchers found in some cases, not all.  People with NCGS are welcome on this forum.  Sometimes we forget that and assume everything is meant to refer to celiac.

I appreciate your interest in maybe doing that experiment.  But totally understand if it is too much trouble.  We all have plenty to do after all.

There are some enzymes that may help with gluten symptoms.  One is DPP-4 and and another is called AN-PEP.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317341.php#1

Here's some links about FODMAPS and gluten.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS873US873&sxsrf=ACYBGNSsNhNizYlbEqjSgZuzZ6eYx7Ww7w%3A1577538947090&ei=g1UHXpGSBZu-tAbEwZGQCQ&q=fodmap+intolerance+gluten&oq=fodmap+intolerance+gluten&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30l2.23599.26591..28439...0.2..0.451.1203.0j6j4-1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i20i263j0i67j0.9tCTC3nhEHo&ved=0ahUKEwjR373EttjmAhUbH80KHcRgBJIQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

Edited December 28, 2019 by GFinDC

[cyclinglady]

5 hours ago, kiwifruta said:

Thankfully, we have your comment as an example of the belligerent consequences of erroneously inferring that when a gluten intolerant person is adding something that hasn’t yet been brought up in conversation by way of sharing a couple of experiences and their current understanding of the role of water and enzymes regarding gluten in slow (cold) fermentation bread production that the gluten intolerant person is making a recommendation to celiacs.

I think I need to try to clarify the miscommunication that is occurring this thread.  

For those of us who have dealt with a gluten free diet for decades, the definition of  “gluten intolerance” meant celiac disease.      You can see one example (a 2005 study) in the link just below this paragraph proving this.  Even if you just Google “gluten intolerance” celiac disease will appear on the first page. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15841709

Within the last few years, the label “gluten intolerance” has been reassigned to those who do not have celiac disease or a wheat (IgE response) allergy.  Some researchers  prefer the term Non-Celiac Gluten Intolerance or Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity.  Interestingly, researchers are finding that a different kind of intestinal damage may be occurring.  So, NCGS should not be taken lightly.  Damage maybe occurring and avoiding gluten might be imperative.  You can learn more here:

https://celiac.org/about-celiac-disease/related-conditions/non-celiac-wheat-gluten-sensitivity/

I think we are coming from different directions in terms of word definitions.

I have to come to the defense of SquirmingItch as a friend and not as a forum moderator.  She has Dermatitis Herpetiformis (DH).  It is the skin version of celiac disease.  A blistering rash that is insanely itchy and difficult to treat and manage.  DH sufferers tend to be even more sensitive than celiacs like me.  She is a long-standing member who has helped countless DH sufferers.   I can only imagine her horror regarding your post when she has worked so hard to help members prevent a DH flare-up.  (Please consider reading through the DH section of the forum just to get her perspective).

Now my personal opinion.  This site was developed by a celiac with the original intention of helping celiacs.  He realized that many members were not able to get a proper diagnosis and that some might have issues with gluten and not have celiac disease. The site is devoted to learning about the gluten-free diet.  We also share research and friendships.  We are a gluten-free community.

Research indicates that about 60% of celiacs never heal.  Either they make mistakes in the diet or they choose not to follow the diet.  They may even have refractory celiac disease.  When you chose to discuss extending the fermenting times of sourdough bread on this forum, even I was horrified.  I can not imagine and would never allow loose wheat flour in my house.  Airborne gluten can be swallowed and can cause an autoimmune response.  

Definitions have changed over the years, but what has not changed is that celiacs and NCGI/S need to avoid the gluten found wheat, rye and barley in order to heal.  All research on sourdough bread and lab testing indicates that the gluten content remains high.  It is not recommended by any celiac research center.  Since not much is known about “gluten intolerance” and the possible damage it may do, I would not suggest consuming or even handling sourdough bread.  

 

 

 

[kareng]

I agree with Cycling lady.  And the title of this thread is “sourdough and Celiac”.  So of course we are reacting to the fact that someone is trying to say sour dough might be safe for Celiacs.
 

I have seen several instances of people who make and sell bread trying to scam Celiacs and other gluten-free people by saying that sour dough has no gluten.  So I want to make sure that people reading this know that sour dough made with wheat flour , is not considered safe for a Celiac.   I think there were some links to recent tests that show that in previous posts above?  

Edited December 28, 2019 by kareng

[GFinDC]

Yep, Squirmy posted a link to a Gluten Free Watchdog article on 3 sourdough breads they tested.  None of the 3 tested were safe for people with celiac disease.  Hopefully all of them have since stopped marketing their sourdough breads as gluten-free since the testing proved them unsafe.  Of the 3 bakeries gluten-free Watchdog tested, I see Purbread hasn't updated their FB page since 2017.  I believe they were sued over false advertising.  Dan the Baker doesn't seem to advertise their bread as gluten-free anymore.  Same for Levain Bread.  Levain bread does claim that long fermentation makes the bread more digestible.

I am not surprised that people would want to try making sourdough bread and thinking it is safe though.  Scientific articles suggesting it may be safe and numerous publications suggesting it may be safe plus commercial bakeries selling sourdough bread as safe for celiacs in the past make it sound credible.  The gluten-free Watchdog proved it isn't safe but that's not widely reported in the media.

  http://levain-bakery.com/sourdoughs.html

In addition, sourdoughs are more digestible and produces a lower surge in blood sugar than usual breads. Gluten, carbohydrates and proteins are also broken down during the long fermentation process, making it less likely to cause digestive discomfort. We also use mainly European flours in our sourdoughs and they have a lower gluten content compared to North American, Japanese and Taiwanese flours. 

By contrast there are recipes for actual gluten-free sourdough breads that are made with gluten-free flours.  These are safe for celiacs since they don't start with gluten containing flours.

https://gfjules.com/recipes/gluten-free-sourdough-bread-recipe/

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by GFinDC