Are Pfizer's And Moderna's Covid Vaccine Really Safe?

[RMJ]

57 minutes ago, Posterboy said:

RMJ and  Marc9803,

I don't know how to follow a thread without making a comment.

So I have a few questions as follow up. Fascinating and excellent conversation BTW. I have really enjoyed reading it....the back and forth.

I have really learned a lot from this thread.

1) So the two approved US vaccines use PEG as carrier. Is that correct??

2) does the Johnson and Johnson vaccine due for approval in January/February time rame also use PEG as a carrier?

3) If they both (Pfizer and Moderna) vaccine both use PEG as a carrier.....why does one have to be "SUPER COLD" and the other one can be stored in a regular refrigerator.

4) IF you have had a reaction to PEG before.....I Have had a terrible reaction to Miralax (PEG) before and won't touch the stuff.....does that mean I should stay away from the Morderna and Pfizer vaccine and wait instead on a Adenovirus carrier vaccine??

5) do either of you know when the Oxford Vaccine (Adenovirus carrier) is expected to be approved in the USA?

6) I have not heard of the Janssen virus yet? How close is it to being approved in the USA?

Thank you both for your great insight and wealth of knowledge on this topic.

Posterboy,

1. The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (which are authorized for emergency use, not approved) both have PEG attached to one of the lipids in the lipid nanoparticle. The PEG isn’t a carrier, the lipid nanoparticle, with PEG attached to one lipid is the carrier.

2.  Janssen is part of Johnson and Johnson. It is a different technology.  It uses an adenovirus to get the DNA for the spike protein into one’s cells, like the Oxford vaccine but a different adenovirus.

Vaccine technologies

3. Probably because of the exact lipids used for the nanoparticles. They use different lipids. PEG attached to one of the lipids is just one part of the nanoparticle.  My guess is that Pfizer could figure out a formulation stable at a normal freezer temperature, but that would have taken more research time. Both of these vaccines require freezing for “long term” storage, although at different temperatures.

4.  It depends on your reaction to Miralax.  Was it an allergic reaction?  Gastrointestinal reaction? If it were me and I’d had a bad reaction I’d probably wait. Definitely something to discuss with your health care provider.  

5.  I think I’ve heard April for Oxford.

6.  Janssen = Johnson & Johnson

 

[Posterboy]

7 hours ago, RMJ said:

Vaccine technologies

RMJ,

Thank you for your quick response and thorough answers.

Also think your for that link....It was very helpful as well.

Which leads me to a follow up question.

IF the first two warp speed vaccines us PEG as a carrier, do the Adenovirus vaccine candidates also use PEG.

quoting form the link "So in both of those vaccines, the mRNA coding for the spike is encased in small carrier molecules called lipid nanoparticles"

Can you list which vaccine candidates approved or in development that either use PEG or not as their carrier molecules.

I don't think my body would react well with being injected with PEG.....going  off my reaction to Miralax???

I am afraid at some point employers will require their employees to be vaccinated?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fact-check-covid-19-vaccine-mandates-don-t-violate-us-employment-law/ar-BB1cob5C?ocid=mailsignout

According to this Msn article some of might have to take a Vaccine whether we want too or not to keep our jobs???

quoting

"In the past, though, both the EEOC and OSHA have ruled that it is legal for employers to mandate flu vaccines, per the National Law Review......The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission issued guidance earlier this month that states that employers have the legal right to require that their employees receive coronavirus vaccines. As long as companies obey exceptions for employees with disabilities or "sincerely held" religious beliefs, vaccine mandates do not violate federal law."

So, I like many other's are trying to find the Vaccine that might best work for us.

A list of PEG free vaccines would let me feel more comfortable with taking a Coronavirus Vaccine.  Knowing my body might tolerate it better.

Thanks for your keen knowledge and interest in explaining these issue(s) to lay people like myself.

TIA

Posterboy,

[RMJ]

The Oxford vaccine does not contain PEG. See item 6 in the linked page.  It does contain polysorbate, which can cause allergic reactions in some people. 

Oxford Astrazeneca vaccine information

The best place to get vaccine ingredients is in the official information given out after they are authorized or approved - this is from the UK.

I would hope that people could get a medical exemption from taking the vaccine if they were likely to have an allergic reaction.  The places giving vaccines are supposed to have equipment/drugs available to treat allergic reactions.  Something to check before getting one if you might have issues! They are also supposed to have people stick around so that if they have allergic reactions they can be treated right away. You might want to stay around longer than the basic recommendation, maybe even 60 minutes.

[Posterboy]

RMJ,

Are you saying that we won't know what carriers the vaccine uses like PEG or Polysorbate until after the Vaccines are approved?

Also are you saying the Janssen vaccine candidate could also be using PEG as a carrier or we don't know yet or we won't know  until it is approved??? Or could it also being Polysorbate like the Oxford Vaccine but just with a different adenovirus??

quoting from an earlier post...

"2.  Janssen is part of Johnson and Johnson. It is a different technology.  It uses an adenovirus to get the DNA for the spike protein into one’s cells, like the Oxford vaccine but a different adenovirus."

Thanks again in advance.

Posterboy,

[RMJ]

I’m saying that companies don’t always make the full listing of ingredients public until they have to.  They have to once authorized/approved.  I couldn’t find anything about Janssen ingredients.

[RMJ]

Posterboy,

The only thing I can find is from another vaccine that Janssen makes that uses the same Ad26 adenovirus “platform” and that has been authorized by European authorities. Here are the excipients in that Ebola vaccine.  It is very likely but not certain that the same ingredients would be in their COVID vaccine. They look very similar to the excipients in the Astrazeneca/Oxford adenovirus vaccine.

Disodium edetate
Ethanol
Histidine hydrochloride monohydrate

Polysorbate-80
Sodium chloride
Sucrose
Water for injections
Sodium hydroxide (for pH adjustment)

 

[Scott Adams]

This article nicely covers where things are with vaccine reactions, and concludes: “In general, the benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the rare risks, experts say.”

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/here-are-the-cdc-guidelines-for-allergic-reactions-to-covid-19-vaccines

Millions have now been vaccinated, including my mother, and we are simply not seeing enough issues with either of these vaccines to justify not getting vaccinated.

 For those who don’t want to get vaccinated, good luck traveling in the future, going to school, working in an office, or just going to the store. You will have to live in fear of this virus, while those who are vaccinated, at least for some time period, won’t. 

Although @marc9803 has gone to lengths here to scare you about these vaccines, he’s completely avoided the topic of the effects of covid-19 on those who survive it, and the number of people it has killed, which will likely pass 500,000 Americans next month, more than were killed in all wars since 1900 combined, and all in less that a year. These are the known risks that you’ve fully avoided in this topic.

[marc9803]

On 1/2/2021 at 11:40 AM, Posterboy said:

RMJ and  Marc9803,

I don't know how to follow a thread without making a comment.

So I have a few questions as follow up. Fascinating and excellent conversation BTW. I have really enjoyed reading it....the back and forth.

I have really learned a lot from this thread.

1) So the two approved US vaccines use PEG as carrier. Is that correct??

2) does the Johnson and Johnson vaccine due for approval in January/February time rame also use PEG as a carrier?

3) If they both (Pfizer and Moderna) vaccine both use PEG as a carrier.....why does one have to be "SUPER COLD" and the other one can be stored in a regular refrigerator.

4) IF you have had a reaction to PEG before.....I Have had a terrible reaction to Miralax (PEG) before and won't touch the stuff.....does that mean I should stay away from the Morderna and Pfizer vaccine and wait instead on a Adenovirus carrier vaccine??

5) do either of you know when the Oxford Vaccine (Adenovirus carrier) is expected to be approved in the USA?

6) I have not heard of the Janssen virus yet? How close is it to being approved in the USA?

Thank you both for your great insight and wealth of knowledge on this topic.

Posterboy,

Posterboy, The main points of these mRNA vaccines: 

1) mRNA has no safety record in literature. This is a fact.

2) Vaccines using mRNA has never been used before. This is even more serious for not having long term studies done on them.

3) FDA didn't evaluate properly these mRNA vaccines nor do they have the proper expertise to do it, as the technology is too new and no literature on its safety. That's the truth. They in fact got by surprise by the allergic reactions, caused by these mRNA vaccines.  I read that a health U.S govt agency pretends to more less redo Pfizer's vaccine trials, as Pfizer's trials were poorly done. They pretend to create two groups, one with allergic people, and a second with non-allergic,  to understand the reasons why lots of allergic and non-allergic people, ended up going to ICU, 15 minutes after taking Pfizer's vaccine. 

4) Another point, theses mRNA vaccines are so safe that Pfizer and Moderna made all govts, who bought their vaccine, sign an agreement that these companies can't be sued, if someone develops serious health problems or dies, taking these vaccines. This shows that even the companies themselves, know that they are not 100% sure of the safety of their vaccine. If someone makes you sign an agreement, that waives all liabilities of their product, doesn't inspire too much confidence.  It even sound fishy.

5) Moderna and Pfizer rushed so quickly to develop their vaccines, that they didn't even properly evaluate the components they put into them, such as PEG. As the article that I previously posted states, " Szebeni says the mechanism behind PEG-conjugated anaphylaxis is relatively unknown  because it does not involve immunoglobulin E (IgE), the antibody type that causes classical allergic reactions. (That’s why he prefers to call them “anaphylactoid” reactions.) Instead, PEG triggers two other classes of antibodies, immunoglobulin M (IgM) and immunoglobulin G (IgG), involved in a branch of the body’s innate immunity, called the complement system, which Szebeni has spent decades studying in a pig model he developed.

In 1999, while working at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research, Szebeni described a new type of drug-induced reaction he dubbed complement activation-related pseudoallergy (CARPA), a nonspecific immune response to nanoparticle-based medicines, often PEGylated, that are mistakenly recognized by the immune system as viruses.

Szebeni believes CARPA explains the severe anaphylactoid reactions some PEGylated drugs are occasionally known to cause, including cancer blockbuster Doxil. A team assembled by Bruce Sullenger, a surgeon at Duke University, experienced similar issues with an experimental anticoagulant containing PEGylated RNA.

 A team assembled by Bruce Sullenger, a surgeon at Duke University, experienced similar issues with an experimental anticoagulant containing PEGylated RNA. The team had to halt a phase III trial in 2014 after about 0.6% of 1600 people who received the drug had severe allergic responses and one participant died.  “That stopped the trial,” Sullenger says. The team found that every participant with an anaphylaxis had high levels of anti-PEG IgG. But some with no adverse reaction had high levels as well, Sullenger adds. “So, it is not sufficient to just have these antibodies.”

At the NIAID meeting, several attendees stressed that PEGylated nanoparticles may cause problems through a mechanism other than CARPA. Just last month, Phillips and scientists at FDA and other institutions published a paper showing patients who suffered an anaphylactic reaction to PEGylated drugs did have IgE antibodies to PEG after all, suggesting those may be involved, rather than IgG and IgM.

 

 

[Scott Adams]

And how many have died from either of these covid vaccines...zero? How many now have taken it...millions? No deaths have been reported. Quit fear mongering @marc9803 . You still haven't mentioned ANYTHING here about the number of deaths worldwide so far from covid-19, the number of deaths that will occur without anyone getting a vaccine for covid-19, or the ~20% of those who get covid-19 and have long-term negative health issues due to it, and many of them are quite serious.

So every day that goes by where tens of thousands of people get these vaccines and don't die or get permanently sick clearly shows that you are wrong about their safety. Thousands of Americans are dying every day of covid-19, now that is something to be concerned about, not the effects of these vaccines.

[DJFL77I]

I wanna be like Scott Adams when I grow up.. Celiac and all... 

But I'm still not taking any vaccine!

[RMJ]

5 hours ago, marc9803 said:

3) FDA didn't evaluate properly these mRNA vaccines nor do they have the proper expertise to do it, as the technology is too new and no literature on its safety. That's the truth. They in fact got by surprise by the allergic reactions, caused by these mRNA vaccines.  I read that a health U.S govt agency pretends to more less redo Pfizer's vaccine trials, as Pfizer's trials were poorly done. They pretend to create two groups, one with allergic people, and a second with non-allergic,  to understand the reasons why lots of allergic and non-allergic people, ended up going to ICU, 15 minutes after taking Pfizer's vaccine. 

4) Another point, theses mRNA vaccines are so safe that Pfizer and Moderna made all govts, who bought their vaccine, sign an agreement that these companies can't be sued, if someone develops serious health problems or dies, taking these vaccines. This shows that even the companies themselves, know that they are not 100% sure of the safety of their vaccine. If someone makes you sign an agreement, that waives all liabilities of their product, doesn't inspire too much confidence.  It even sound fishy.

Item 3:  

• The FDA is used to reviewing new technology, it is part of their job.
• It is not at all uncommon to see new side effects (such as allergic reactions) once a drug is out of clinical trials and in a larger, less defined population.  
• The NIAID is not going to more or less redo Pfizer’s trials.  They’re going to look at a few hundred people, including severely allergic individuals, to try to understand the allergic reactions.

Item 4:

Many companies have decided to no longer make vaccines due to the risk of lawsuits.  Because of this a special National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was set up in 1988. It is not at all unusual for vaccine manufacturers to have protection from lawsuits.

History of vaccine injury compensation programs

The COVID vaccines are covered by the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program.

See item 6 on linked page

 

[marc9803]

1 hour ago, Scott Adams said:

And how many have died from either of these covid vaccines...zero? How many now have taken it...millions? No deaths have been reported. Quit fear mongering @marc9803 . You still haven't mentioned ANYTHING here about the number of deaths worldwide so far from covid-19, the number of deaths that will occur without anyone getting a vaccine for covid-19, or the ~20% of those who get covid-19 and have long-term negative health issues due to it, and many of them are quite serious.

So every day that goes by where tens of thousands of people get these vaccines and don't die or get permanently sick clearly shows that you are wrong about their safety. Thousands of Americans are dying every day of covid-19, now that is something to be concerned about, not the effects of these vaccines.

Like I said to you previously in other posts:

1) All the allergic people, or people who have underlining problems that could result in severe immune reactions, are not allowed to take these mRNA vaccines. This is why the number of reported adverse severe cases, dropped. A doctor of a friend of mine, told him to not these mRNA vaccines, as he has high blood pressure and heart problems. 

2) There are no long term studies for these vaccines. If there are no long term vaccines, it can't be scientifically stated that these vaccines are safe. This, even a 1st grader in primary school, is already taught in his science class. 

 

[Scott Adams]

25 minutes ago, marc9803 said:

Like I said to you previously in other posts:

1) All the allergic people, or people who have underlining problems that could result in severe immune reactions, are not allowed to take these mRNA vaccines. This is why the number of reported adverse severe cases, dropped. A doctor of a friend of mine, told him to not these mRNA vaccines, as he has high blood pressure and heart problems. 

2) There are no long term studies for these vaccines. If there are no long term vaccines, it can't be scientifically stated that these vaccines are safe. This, even a 1st grader in primary school, is already taught in his science class. 

 

Regarding #1, this statement is not correct. People with allergies are allowed to take the vaccine. They currently recommend that if you have a history of allergies to vaccines that you take it at your doctor's office, or at a hospital setting where you can get anaphylaxis support if needed, and wait there for up to an hour afterwards.  I've seen no rules published that say those with high blood pressure, allergies, or autoimmune diseases can't take these vaccines. Please provide a link to support this claim.

Regarding #2, this statement is misleading. Both Pfizer and Moderna conducted all of the necessary scientific studies that are required for approval by each countries' vaccine approval bureaucracies/medical boards, which means in the USA they got the FDA's approval for being safe and effective against covid-19. They met ALL requirements, and did not take any short cuts.

How about let's talk about the why these vaccines were developed in the first place, and the effects of covid-19 on society and business, the number of people dying daily of it, and its effects on those who survive it, which are only just beginning to be studied, for example:

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943437?nlid=138898_5364&src=WNL_mdplsnews_210101_mscpedit_wir&uac=39429HJ&spon=17&impID=2807411&faf=1

Quote

New Evidence That COVID-19 Invades the Brain

SARS-CoV-2 can invade the brain and directly act on brain cells, causing neuroinflammation, new animal research suggests.

Investigators injected spike 1 (S1), which is found on the tufts of the "red spikes" of the virus, into mice and found that it crossed the blood-brain barrier (BBB) and was taken up not only by brain regions and the brain space but also by other organs — specifically, the lungs, spleen, liver, and kidneys.

"We found that the S1 protein, which is the protein COVID-19 uses to 'grab onto' cells, crosses the BBB and is a good model of what the virus does when it enters the brain," lead author William A. Banks, MD, professor of medicine, the University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle, Washington, told Medscape Medical News.

"When proteins such as the S1 protein become detached from the virus, they can enter the brain and cause mayhem, causing the brain to release cytokines, which, in turn, cause inflammation and subsequent neurotoxicity," said Banks, who is also associate chief of staff and a researcher at the Puget Sound Veterans Affairs Healthcare System.

 

[marc9803]

49 minutes ago, RMJ said:

Item 3:  

• The FDA is used to reviewing new technology, it is part of their job.
• It is not at all uncommon to see new side effects (such as allergic reactions) once a drug is out of clinical trials and in a larger, less defined population.  
• The NIAID is not going to more or less redo Pfizer’s trials.  They’re going to look at a few hundred people, including severely allergic individuals, to try to understand the allergic reactions.

Item 4:

Many companies have decided to no longer make vaccines due to the risk of lawsuits.  Because of this a special National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program was set up in 1988. It is not at all unusual for vaccine manufacturers to have protection from lawsuits.

History of vaccine injury compensation programs

The COVID vaccines are covered by the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program.

See item 6 on linked page

 

1) FDA reviewing is a joke like they reviewing the safety of gmos. It is the famous revolving door. Michael Taylor, former lawyer of Monsanto, and who worked in the biotechnological sector of the FDA in three government administrations, sends a warm hug to you. 

2) FDA is that agency, who with a certain frequency, takes out a medication that was in the market for the last 20 years, because they finally found out that it causes cancer. The last one I saw was a baby powder of Johnson and Johnson. 

3)  All of the drug makers continue in vaccines. In fact, most of them are developing their covid vaccines-- even Sanofi.  Merck makes many every ten years. They even made for ebola. You might not know, but there are like 100 covid vaccines that are currently being developed, around the world. 

4)  I don't why you mention The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, when Pfizer made all govts who purchased its vaccines, to sign a agreement that they will not be liable to any injury or death, by people who takes their vaccine. They have a global agreement with all countries that purchased their vaccine and not just the U.S.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Scott Adams said:

Regarding #1, this statement is not correct. People with allergies are allowed to take the vaccine. They currently recommend that if you have a history of allergies to vaccines that you take it at your doctor's office, or at a hospital setting where you can get anaphylaxis support if needed, and wait there for up to an hour afterwards.  I've seen no rules published that say those with high blood pressure, allergies, or autoimmune diseases can't take these vaccines. Please provide a link to support this claim.

Regarding #2, this statement is misleading. Both Pfizer and Moderna conducted all of the necessary scientific studies that are required for approval by each countries' vaccine approval bureaucracies/medical boards, which means in the USA they got the FDA's approval for being safe and effective against covid-19. They met ALL requirements, and did not take any short cuts.

How about let's talk about the why these vaccines were developed in the first place, and the effects of covid-19 on society and business, the number of people dying daily of it, and its effects on those who survive it, which are only just beginning to be studied, for example:

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943437?nlid=138898_5364&src=WNL_mdplsnews_210101_mscpedit_wir&uac=39429HJ&spon=17&impID=2807411&faf=1

 

With due respect, but all the information of your last post, is all wrong. It is not even worth answering to it. I'll let you stay with your ignorance. 

[Scott Adams]

If you make these claims you need to back them up with support, sorry but simply calling me ignorant doesn't cut it. I know for a fact that people with high blood pressure (like me) can take either vaccine when it becomes available. You made this claim, you need to provide the evidence to back it up.

Quote

With due respect, but all the information of your last post, is all wrong. It is not even worth answering to it. I'll let you stay with your ignorance. 

 

[Scott Adams]

This thread has been closed. I will share a final update on this:

"Anaphylaxis Cases After COVID Vaccine Rising But Still Rare: CDC"

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/943673

Quote

There have been 29 cases of anaphylaxis to date following administration of a COVID-19 vaccine, officials from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said on a Wednesday call with reporters.

There have been about 11.1 cases of anaphylaxis per million doses with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, which is higher than the estimated 1.3 cases per million doses with influenza vaccines, she said. But the low risk of anaphylaxis must be balanced against the threat of COVID-19, which currently claims about 2000 lives a day in the United States, she said. In addition, many people are reporting long-term complications with COVID-19 even if they recover.

Kept in context, the data on anaphylaxis should not scare people away from getting a COVID-19 vaccine, she said.

"Their risk from COVID and poor outcomes is still more than the risk of a severe outcome from the vaccine," Messonnier said. "And fortunately, we know how to treat anaphylaxis."