Connection Between Grapes And Gluten?

[Scott Adams]

If you have celiac disease and your gut has not fully healed from the damage caused by it, many may experience reactions to other foods they ingest. For me it was tomatoes, corn, chicken eggs and cow's milk/casein, and those reactions certainly were not a myth (although the scientific reasoning behind this may not be a "protein confusion" in the body, I was, nevertheless, "cross-reacting" to these foods). After healing I can now eat each of these foods daily, with the exception of chicken eggs, which I can eat 1-2 times a week without significant issues.

So, please stop telling people that they are not "cross-reacting," when in fact, they clearly are reacting to additional foods in addition to gluten, and this is probably due to a leaky gut issue that triggers an immune reaction to the proteins in those additional foods (whether or not there is actual confusion by the body is, in my opinion, a moot point). If you want to argue about the cause or source of these additional temporary food intolerance issues, let's discuss that. Far too many people experience additional, temporary food intolerance for it to be a myth. I've not seen any scientific studies done on this yet, but do believe that the science will catch up and be able to accurately describe exactly what is going on when this occurs.

After hundreds of studies on gluten and how it triggers the autoimmune reaction in those who are sensitive to it, scientists have only just recently found that cytokine production is the trigger of the gut reaction that makes people feel so sick. It would not surprise me at all if the foods that I was temporarily reacting to also were triggering the production of cytokines, but again, it will take years for this research to be done.  If it turns out that this is the case, then what kind of reaction is it...a cross-reaction? (Gluten causes leaky gut and cytokine production...then other food proteins pass into the body via leaky gut and the body may react by producing cytokines, which cause the exact same sick feelings at the gluten did...).

 

[Scott Adams]

PS - For years, and to this day, MANY medical doctors tell people with a negative biopsy who may have gluten sensitivity to continue to eat gluten and that they are fine. Even though non-celiac wheat sensitivity/gluten sensitivity has now, after dozens of studies, been properly determined to be a separate but related condition to celiac disease. Should those who are gluten sensitive continue to eat gluten? No, of course not. 

I bring this up because the mainstream medical community, unfortunately, is way behind the curve on many things. Even though the science on gluten sensitivity is now years old, many doctors, and perhaps most of them, still would not recommend a gluten-free diet to their patients unless there is measurable gut damage in a biopsy.

I don't even want to get into the concept of gastroenterologists fighting to protect "their turf" of being the only ones who should diagnose those with celiac disease (virtually all research done in the past 10 years indicate that it can accuracy be diagnosed via blood tests alone), but this gastroenterology-turf issue certainly reinforces the mistaken concept that what doctors should be diagnosing is celiac disease, and not gluten sensitivity. Of course they should be diagnosing both, and since ~10% of people have gluten sensitivity they should really be focusing on diagnosing gluten sensitivity rather than just celiac disease, because when you do this you end up diagnosing far more people who have celiac disease than simply relying on gut biopsies alone.

My daughter's doctor never said a single word about her very high, but just under the cut-off, celiac blood test results. The doctor knows that she carries the genetic makeup to get celiac disease, has gastro symptoms, and that her father and grandmother have celiac disease--and yet because the test had her just below a cut-off line she's fine, right? No need to even discuss it or bring up the results with the patient.

Although some of these things may seem unrelated to the thread, they are related to my last post. Don't necessarily ask those the medical community whether or not you are gluten sensitive, because in many cases they will get it wrong. They really don't know what the existing science says, and they really can't interpret their own test results that well (demonstrated almost daily in this forum my people asking us to help interpret their results). Certainly on the concept of cross-reactivity which hasn't even been studied they likely can't help you. Wiser doctors tell you to keep a food diary and eliminate things that bother you, in addition to doing certain allergy testing that my indicate additional food sensitives. 

[cyclinglady]

21 hours ago, Scott Adams said:

If you have celiac disease and your gut has not fully healed from the damage caused by it, many may experience reactions to other foods they ingest. For me it was tomatoes, corn, chicken eggs and cow's milk/casein, and those reactions certainly were not a myth (although the scientific reasoning behind this may not be a "protein confusion" in the body, I was, nevertheless, "cross-reacting" to these foods). After healing I can now eat each of these foods daily, with the exception of chicken eggs, which I can eat 1-2 times a week without significant issues.

So, please stop telling people that they are not "cross-reacting," when in fact, they clearly are reacting to additional foods in addition to gluten, and this is probably due to a leaky gut issue that triggers an immune reaction to the proteins in those additional foods (whether or not there is actual confusion by the body is, in my opinion, a moot point). If you want to argue about the cause or source of these additional temporary food intolerance issues, let's discuss that. Far too many people experience additional, temporary food intolerance for it to be a myth. I've not seen any scientific studies done on this yet, but do believe that the science will catch up and be able to accurately describe exactly what is going on when this occurs.

After hundreds of studies on gluten and how it triggers the autoimmune reaction in those who are sensitive to it, scientists have only just recently found that cytokine production is the trigger of the gut reaction that makes people feel so sick. It would not surprise me at all if the foods that I was temporarily reacting to also were triggering the production of cytokines, but again, it will take years for this research to be done.  If it turns out that this is the case, then what kind of reaction is it...a cross-reaction? (Gluten causes leaky gut and cytokine production...then other food proteins pass into the body via leaky gut and the body may react by producing cytokines, which cause the exact same sick feelings at the gluten did...).

 

Food intolerances are real and so is a leaky gut (or whatever you want to call it).  They are both common, especially with those who have celiac disease.  How those intolerances (which differ from an IgE allergy response) work is still unknown. 

In the case of celiac disease, there is no evidence that the body is tricked into thinking that other foods (other than wheat, rye or barley) trigger an autoimmune response that damages the small intestinal lining and destroys villi.  Some websites tout that if you are not healing from celiac disease, it may be due to “gluten” cross-reactive foods and they provide a list.  Per the University of Chicago and other celiac research centers, these “gluten cross-reactive foods” that supposedly trigger celiac disease does not exist.  Is this just an example of medical science  that hasn’t figured it out yet?  I do not think so (and I have no medical background).  I can only state that as a confirmed celiac, I have altered my diet to exclude gluten.    I also excluded a few other foods as well based on a journal.  Foods that have bothered me include dairy, eggs, onions, Xanthan Gum, mushrooms, garlic,  nuts, etc.  As I healed  from celiac disease (based on symptoms), I was able to add back in dairy and eggs but not mushrooms, sometimes nuts, Xanthan Gum, and never garlic or onions.  Those still cause intestinal upset and trigger my Acne Rosacea which is a very visible inflammatory response.   

If I had followed those websites touting “gluten cross reactors” I would have eliminated many foods from my diet that would have been unnecessary for me.  As it stands, I did trial the Fasano diet for a few months after a severe gluten exposure that lasted for almost a year (Follow-up DGP IgA antibodies were off the charts and measured several times).   I never gave up “gluten cross reactive” foods like rice, coffee, and dairy on this very restrictive diet.   Despite the Fasano diet, I was still unwell and had a repeat endoscopy.  Biopsies revealed a healthy small intestine.  The scope’s magnification was so strong that I could see the healthy villi (my doctor gave me photos).  Unfortunately, gastric biopsies revealed Chronic autoimmune gastritis which was the root cause of my current intestinal issues and not celiac disease.  It was a relief to know that I was following the gluten-free diet well.  I healed from celiac disease despite consuming “gluten cross reactive foods”.  No theories.  Hard scientific lab results and photographs.  

I still have intolerances to onions, garlic, Xanthan Gum, and some nuts.  So, something is still going on, but it is not active celiac disease.  

I think we are just getting caught up in word definitions.  Those with celiac disease must avoid gluten from wheat, rye and barley in order to prevent intestinal damage.  They may have additional allergies, food intolerances or other illnesses like Crohn’s, SIBO, UC, cancer, parasites, etc.  Those should be addressed by the patient and/or their doctor.   

This all really strays from the OP’s topic of grapes, but I felt it necessary to address your posting, Scott.  I do agree that there are many doctors, health plans and insurance companies, who do not make getting a celiac disease diagnosis easy.  Even today, it is hard to get a simple screening test.   So frustrating!  

Edited September 12, 2019 by cyclinglady

[CATRYNA]

Good call!  You are so right. When the gut is damaged it is easy for things to get into the blood stream that do not belong there setting up an allergic reaction or attack on the part of the body. 

[cyclinglady]

@Scott Adams

I am sorry to hear about your daughter.   Has she decided to just go gluten free?  I hope so!  

My own daughter was tested twice despite that she is symptom free.  Her results were negative after doing a 12 week gluten challenge both times as our house is gluten free.  We wanted to be sure celiac disease was firmly ruled out before she went off to college.  I just had a friend who has been gluten-free for more than a decade (she too refuses to do a challenge).  Yet her young adult son is having GI issues and their doctor will only refer them to a GI for even the blood tests!  That is crazy!  I gave out the standard advice — Find another doctor or go to a walk-in lab.  It should not be that difficult!  

 

 

[Scott Adams]

Yes, my daughter is now gluten-free and no longer has symptoms. She never got a biopsy, but definitely is gluten sensitive with high antibodies, symptoms that go away on a gluten-free diet, etc., so no need. 

[Posterboy]

On 9/12/2019 at 9:16 AM, cyclinglady said:

I still have intolerances to onions, garlic, Xanthan Gum, and some nuts.  So, something is still going on, but it is not active celiac disease.  

Cyclinglady,

Have you considered whether you might have a FODMAP problem.

All your sensitive foods seem to be high in FODMap's.

See this Monash University list.

https://www.monashfodmap.com/about-fodmap-and-ibs/high-and-low-fodmap-foods/

Also I ran across something about six months ago that can explain your Mushroom issue(s) if it is not a FODMAP problem for you.

https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/too-much-of-a-good-thing-mushrooms-intolerance-and-your-genes/

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

[cyclinglady]

2 hours ago, Posterboy said:

Cyclinglady,

Have you considered whether you might have a FODMAP problem.

All your sensitive foods seem to be high in FODMap's.

See this Monash University list.

https://www.monashfodmap.com/about-fodmap-and-ibs/high-and-low-fodmap-foods/

Also I ran across something about six months ago that can explain your Mushroom issue(s) if it is not a FODMAP problem for you.

https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/too-much-of-a-good-thing-mushrooms-intolerance-and-your-genes/

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

I also read up on the genetic intolerance to mushrooms a few years ago — very interesting.  The foods I mentioned previously typically trigger a skin reaction (hives/swelling) , tingling mouth, vomiting, passing out and stomach cramps.  These were diagnosed by my allergist decades ago. I have avoided these foods for decades with the exception of Xanthan Gum which might just be an intolerance.  It was never identified by my allergist, just sleuthing on my part.  I discovered it after my celiac disease diagnosis.  I suspect it was a new food for me.   My current allergist suspects Mast Cell Activation Syndrome since I have had many anaphylactic episodes throughout my life.  My major triggers are insect bites and medications.  You can see why I am wary of taking even supplements.  

These same allergies to these foods run in my family as well along with insect bites, medications, horses, cats, and other common allergens.  Most are not that severe.  (I still ride horses!)

Allergies are under the hypersensitivity umbrella (Type 1) If my celiac disease or other autoimmune is flaring then my IgE allergies or MCAS can ramp up.  

In any case, thank you, but I am doing very well.  I am riding the wave of good health!  

[Posterboy]

Cyclinglady,

If your main complaint is chronic hives try taking some Vitamin D or have your doctor check your Vitamin D levels.

Vitamin D is a known immune system modulator....

Here is a couple links about this topic/connection.

One entitled "Vitamin D  modulator of the immune system."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427238

And this on the study of how supplementing with Vitamin D can help chronic hives entitled

"Vitamin D provides relief for those with chronic hives, study shows"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140217084804.htm

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy

[kareng]

13 minutes ago, Posterboy said:

Cyclinglady,

If your main complaint is chronic hives try taking some Vitamin D or have your doctor check your Vitamin D levels.

Vitamin D is a known immune system modulator....

Here is a couple links about this topic/connection.

One entitled "Vitamin D  modulator of the immune system."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20427238

And this on the study of how supplementing with Vitamin D can help chronic hives entitled

"Vitamin D provides relief for those with chronic hives, study shows"

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140217084804.htm

I hope this is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy

What? What does this have to do with the topic of grapes?  I don’t see where Cycles said anything about “chronic hives”.  

Please stay on topic 

Edited September 15, 2019 by kareng

[cyclinglady]

Not to be mean, but you would think that you would know by now that I do not supplement unless it is necessary.   I have my vitamin and mineral levels checked as recommended for proper follow-up celiac disease care. I am NOT deficient in anything.  I am a healed celiac!  

Did you actually read every line of my post?   It is like you have blinders on.  I often react to medications.  Why should I take unnecessary risks?  Your post makes me think that you think that I am stupid.  

This is why forum members complain about you.  You respond without thought.  You are often off topic.  You seem to have only one agenda and that is to push vitamins and minerals.Yes, some people maybe deficient, but you should encourage them to get tested.  

You are NOT a doctor.  You should not be worrying about solving health issues for people especially when it is not solicited.  That means if they actually ask for help.  I did not.  

If I sound harsh it is because I am super frustrated!  ?

Let’s go back to the original topic.  Grapes.  If you want to start a topic of your choosing, then do so.  

My apologies to all who responded to grape issues.  

 

 

[kareng]

2 minutes ago, cyclinglady said:

Not to be mean, but you would think that you would know by now that I do not supplement unless it is necessary.   I have my vitamin and mineral levels checked as recommended for proper follow-up celiac disease care. I am NOT deficient in anything.  I am a healed celiac!  

Did you actually read every line of my post?   It is like you have blinders on.  I often react to medications.  Why should I take unnecessary risks?  Your post makes me think that you think that I am stupid.  

This is why forum members complain about you.  You respond without thought.  You are often off topic.  You seem to have only one agenda and that is to push vitamins and minerals.Yes, some people maybe deficient, but you should encourage them to get tested.  

You are NOT a doctor.  You should not be worrying about solving health issues for people especially when it is not solicited.  That means if they actually ask for help.  I did not.  

If I sound harsh it is because I am super frustrated!  ?

Let’s go back to the original topic.  Grapes.  If you want to start a topic of your choosing, then do so.  

My apologies to all who responded to grape issues.  

 

 

Agree and well said.  

[squirmingitch]

15 hours ago, cyclinglady said:

Not to be mean, but you would think that you would know by now that I do not supplement unless it is necessary.   I have my vitamin and mineral levels checked as recommended for proper follow-up celiac disease care. I am NOT deficient in anything.  I am a healed celiac!  

Did you actually read every line of my post?   It is like you have blinders on.  I often react to medications.  Why should I take unnecessary risks?  Your post makes me think that you think that I am stupid.  

This is why forum members complain about you.  You respond without thought.  You are often off topic.  You seem to have only one agenda and that is to push vitamins and minerals.Yes, some people maybe deficient, but you should encourage them to get tested.  

You are NOT a doctor.  You should not be worrying about solving health issues for people especially when it is not solicited.  That means if they actually ask for help.  I did not.  

If I sound harsh it is because I am super frustrated!  ?

Let’s go back to the original topic.  Grapes.  If you want to start a topic of your choosing, then do so.  

My apologies to all who responded to grape issues.  

 

 

Cyclinglady nails it totally!!!!! Posterboy, every single thing cycling lady said is true. You NEVER seem to actually read & pay attention to what someone posted and you are completely unable to stay on topic. You run people off because you go off the rails constantly. Just b/c you put "this is not medical advise" at the end of your posts does not mean you are not diagnosing them b/c your history shows that you are. Further, you diagnose w/o reading or asking for all the relevant facts. You make me crazy!!!!! Oh, now I'll bet you'll freaking post something in reply to me on how some freaking vitamin will cure my craziness. You NOT being here will cure my craziness. A vitamin sure won't do it. If anything, you have made me anti vitamin. The worlds ills are not going to be solved with a vitamin.

[Posterboy]

To All,

I didn't see where anybody mentioned this..I was doing research for something else on Pubmed and this come up about allergic reactions to grapes... though rare it can happen.

There was at least four different studies on it but I will only mention this one because it seems representative of the problem the OP and others have had with grapes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15650314 

I hope it is helpful but it is not medical advise.

Posterboy,

[CATRYNA]

Boy, this sure would have been nice to know 60 years a ago.

[Jenny923]

On 3/24/2006 at 11:41 AM, Flyingmango said:

Has anyone experienced side effects/intolerance/allergy symptoms to grapes? I'm finding if I eat red grapes, drink red wine or fruit punches containing grapes, that I get the same symptoms as I do when I eat gluten. Funny enough, green grapes and white wine don't seem to bother. Any thoughts, or similar experiences?

Please get your gall bladder checked next time you get the stomach pain from grapes. I had horrible stomach pain every time I ate grapes or raisins or drank wine or grape juice.   Never felt that kind of stomach pain until my gall bladder had to be removed.  Turns out I can now magically eat and drink all those things now that my gall bladder is gone.  And I NEED to know if this has happened to anyone else!!  Lol

[trents]

3 hours ago, Jenny923 said:

Please get your gall bladder checked next time you get the stomach pain from grapes. I had horrible stomach pain every time I ate grapes or raisins or drank wine or grape juice.   Never felt that kind of stomach pain until my gall bladder had to be removed.  Turns out I can now magically eat and drink all those things now that my gall bladder is gone.  And I NEED to know if this has happened to anyone else!!  Lol

The function of the gallbladder is to secrete bile, a substance that aids on the digestion of fats. Not fats in grapes.

[Scott Adams]

Red grapes naturally contain sulphites, which some people are allergic to, and if so they can cause inflammation. Some wineries add more sulphites during processing for various reasons, so this issue can be magnified with red wines.

[trents]

Grapes and especially raisins can also be high in histamines and may cause the symptoms you describe in some people who don't break down histamines well. You may want to look into histamine intolerance/mast cell activation syndrome.

[Anniehall]

On 9/11/2019 at 9:46 AM, squirmingitch said:

https://www.foodsafety.com.au/blog/top-surprising-foods-that-might-be-making-you-sick

 

https://www.livestrong.com/article/287341-stomach-pain-from-eating-grapes/

I don't react to grapes but wine may be filtered using gluten so if it's not labeled gluten free it may not be. 

[Scott Adams]

On 5/1/2022 at 7:31 AM, Anniehall said:

I don't react to grapes but wine may be filtered using gluten so if it's not labeled gluten free it may not be. 

Wine is gluten-free, and I've never heard the claim that it is "filtered using gluten." Please provide a source for this claim.

For years people have claimed that when wheat paste is used to seal wine barrels it contaminates the wine, but this has not been verified by those who make this claim. New wine barrels are steam power washed inside before use, and I've seen this process going on in front of me when visiting wineries. 

[Anniehall]

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-wine-gluten-free#:~:text=Wine is naturally gluten-free%2C but some practices — including,purchase certified gluten-free varieties.  

Really just because you saw this happen at one winery does not mean every winery is the same. Although people could be reacting to something else in the wine. I just know that wine can trigger me. Not sure why. I seem to be able to eat grapes with no issue. Maybe it's just that the amount of sulphites in wine are much higher than what you would be exposed to eating a few grapes. 

[Anniehall]

4 minutes ago, Anniehall said:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-wine-gluten-free#:~:text=Wine is naturally gluten-free%2C but some practices — including,purchase certified gluten-free varieties.  

Really just because you saw this happen at one winery does not mean every winery is the same. Although people could be reacting to something else in the wine. I just know that wine can trigger me. Not sure why. I seem to be able to eat grapes with no issue. Maybe it's just that the amount of sulphites in wine are much higher than what you would be exposed to eating a few grapes. 

When I read through that link more thoroughly it makes me think the histamine is to blame since it says that red wine contains far more histamine than white and people keep mentioning a reaction to red wine but no issues with white. I wonder if another good alternative could be a fruit wine. Like cranberry wine so it doesn't contain grapes at all. Just a thought. 

[trents]

2 hours ago, Anniehall said:

When I read through that link more thoroughly it makes me think the histamine is to blame since it says that red wine contains far more histamine than white and people keep mentioning a reaction to red wine but no issues with white. I wonder if another good alternative could be a fruit wine. Like cranberry wine so it doesn't contain grapes at all. Just a thought. 

But if the problem is histamine as you suggest, would cranberry wine have less histamine?

[Anniehall]

20 hours ago, trents said:

But if the problem is histamine as you suggest, would cranberry wine have less histamine?

Good question. Maybe all wine contains histamine just in varying amounts. Not sure. It might also be the yeast in the wine or any alcohol causing an issue with alcohol in general because yeast is a gluten cross reactive. I love nutritional yeast on popcorn. I don't react to popcorn and when I was doing elimination diet I tested nutritional yeast. It not only caused a bit of acne but caused insomnia for me.