Hidden Gluten in distilled vinegar

[Leslie Clark]

Recently diagnosed with Celiac Disease and must have strict gluten-free diet. I'm learning that even the distilled vinegar in ketchup can be with wheat (I'm super sensitive). My frustration comes with NOT knowing for certain and don't mind reading labels, but if the manufacturer of the food I might want to eat, won't just say what they've used, dangit, I go without it. I'm TRYING to be a good patient, but it's always the little hidden gluten that sets me into a flare .... I just want to eat and not have diarrhea because the food has gluten in it. I'm still learning and love all tips and tricks and fiber supplement recommendations anyone can give me. THANK YOU!!

 

[trents]

Welcome to the forum, Leslie!

Theoretically at least, distilling should remove all nonvolatile substances so distilled vinegar will actually be gluten free. But not all vinegar is distilled and some of the ones that are not distilled and are made from grains (like malt vinegar) would be a problem for celiacs. Having said that, I am also aware that there are those on this forum who claim to get glutened from even distilled spirits. We are not sure why this is. People have conjectured that some cross contamination may happen if the spirits are stored in barrels sealed with wheat paste. Look for catsup made from distilled white vinegar. You may have to contact the manufacturer to find out that much ingredient detail.

There is also the possibility that some other ingredient in that catsup brand does contain some gluten. Does it say "gluten free" on the container?

Edited March 12, 2023 by trents

[captaincrab55]

FYI, Heinz Ketchup is safe for me, but Hunts Ketchup sets off my Dermatitis Herpetiformis.   Distilled flavored vinegar may be a problem if the flavoring contains gluten.   Many of your questions have already been answered here.     You just need to use the site search function for most of your questions .

 

[Leslie Clark]

Thank you for your input!!

I WILL search for related answers previously posted.

I'm new to the forum, so ... learning curve.

[Scott Adams]

There articles might be helpful:

 

 

[Manaan2]

I realize I'm super late in the game regarding this topic but in case anyone is still reading/commenting on this one-does anyone who is especially sensitive have their personal observations to share regarding Primal Kitchen brand?  My daughter was diagnosed almost 2 years ago with celiac and within 6 months, her follow up labs were normal and a year later vitamin levels significantly improving, but we are still battling GI symptoms; particularly, constipation, so much that she has been on MiraLax every day since she was 3.  We've managed to get her down to a half cap every other day but without that, she continues to have issues (when she has a known, accidental ingestion unfortunately it takes a lot more MiraLax and additional laxatives to help her).  I was searching for something else and found this and am wondering if anyone has any specific comments regarding Primal Kitchen.  I feel like we are so incredibly careful with diet, logging diet and symptoms to look for patterns (we've had multiple dieticians help with this piece as well), not eating out, contacting companies and of course, there is always room for improvement but I'm running out of ideas regarding where her issues could be coming from.  Even if the Primal Kitchen is contributing, I'm sure it's not the only thing contributing but I can't help but think there must be handful of things that are working together and against her.  The ingredients list distilled white vinegar, but also white wine vinegar and balsamic, then "spices" which I'm always cautious about.  However, after contacting the company, I felt more comfortable allowing her to consume their products but over time I've realized that the front-line customer service support people don't always provide the most accurate of information.  Thanks for reading to anyone that does.   

[trents]

@Manaan2, have you considered the possibility that she might be cross reacting to some food or foods that technically don't contain gluten but whose proteins closely resemble gluten. Chief candidates might be dairy (casein), oats (avenin), soy, corn and eggs. One small study showed that 50% of celiacs react to CMP (Cow's Milk Protein) like they do gluten.

Edited February 9 by trents

[Manaan2]

Hi Trents-Thanks for reading and sharing insight.  We need all the help we can get and it's super appreciated.  She is currently dairy, soy and oat free and those have mostly been completely excluded from her diet since the diagnosis (we tried going back on dairy and oats at different times for a bit, didn't see a significant difference but have now cut out again just to be extra safe since her issues are so persistent.  We did cut eggs out for about 3 months and didn't notice significant difference there, either.  The only one we haven't specifically cut out completely for any portion of time is corn, however, we've kept it minimal in all of our diets for a long time.  She definitely goes 3-4 weeks without any corn products at times and still has issues, but I'm guessing that's not long enough to confirm that it isn't causing issues.   We could definitely try to go longer just to double check.  Thanks again!   

[Scott Adams]

I've not heard of any issues with Primal Kitchen, but it certainly would be worth not using the brand for a while to see if this helps.

Many people with celiac disease, especially those who are in the 0-2 year range of their recovery, have additional food intolerance issues which could be temporary. To figure this out you may need to keep a food diary and do an elimination diet over a few months.

Some common food intolerance issues are dairy/casein, eggs, corn, oats, and soy. The good news is that after your gut heals (for most people who are 100% gluten-free this will take several months to two years) you may be able to slowly add some these items back into your diet after the damaged villi heal.

This article may be helpful:

 

 

[Manaan2]

22 hours ago, Scott Adams said:

I've not heard of any issues with Primal Kitchen, but it certainly would be worth not using the brand for a while to see if this helps.

Many people with celiac disease, especially those who are in the 0-2 year range of their recovery, have additional food intolerance issues which could be temporary. To figure this out you may need to keep a food diary and do an elimination diet over a few months.

Some common food intolerance issues are dairy/casein, eggs, corn, oats, and soy. The good news is that after your gut heals (for most people who are 100% gluten-free this will take several months to two years) you may be able to slowly add some these items back into your diet after the damaged villi heal.

This article may be helpful:

 

Thank you for posting this and for all of the ongoing information you provide on this site.  Our stress level with managing our daughter's celiac disease would be much higher without this site as a resource.  

[knitty kitty]

@Manaan2,

You may want to consider switching from Miralax (polyethylene glycol) to magnesium citrate and Thiamine supplements.  

When I was prescribed Miralax for constipation, I developed worsened gastrointestinal problems, including worsening leaky gut syndrome.  Since polyethylene glycol is a synthetic chemical made from petroleum or coal byproducts, I was uncomfortable with that.  

Miralax can cause poor vitamin absorption, flushing vitamins and minerals away before they can be absorbed.  Miralax can cause electrolyte imbalances, meaning low magnesium.  Low magnesium levels can cause constipation.  Low Thiamine Vitamin B1 can cause constipation as well.  Magnesium and Thiamine work together to make life sustaining enzymes.  Without sufficient thiamine and magnesium, the gastrointestinal tract slows down resulting in constipation, a sort of catch twenty-two.  

I quit taking Miralax.  I took a form of Thiamine, Benfotiamine 250-300 mg, at the beginning of every meal and 200mg magnesium citrate or magnesium glycinate or magnesium l-threonate (Neuromag) at the end of every meal.  My constipation resolved quickly.  When my stool got too loose, I simply reduced the amount of magnesium.  I did not reduce Benfotiamine which has been shown to promote intestinal health and reduce leaky gut syndrome.  If thiamine at night gives too much energy to fall asleep at night, skip the Benfotiamine at the last evening meal.

Blood tests ate not accurate measures of vitamin sufficiency.  The best way to check for Thiamine insufficiency is to take it and look for health improvement within a few days.  Thiamine is water soluble, easily excreted in urine if not needed.  Thiamine is safe and nontoxic when used in high doses.  No harm in trying, just to rule this out.  

Best wishes.  Do keep us posted on your daughter's progress!

[Manaan2]

@knitty kitty I can't thank you enough!  My husband and I already started looking into those supplements.  We definitely plan to give it a try.  We've been against the Miralax since it was originally advised by PCP, but because of the level of pain she experienced on a daily basis, we decided to try it.  We've made many attempts to gradually decrease but due to her pain and related symptoms, we've kept her on it while trying all sorts of other dietary adjustments pre and post diagnosis specific to food; so far none of those efforts have made a significant difference.  I will definitely share how she's doing along the way!

[knitty kitty]

@Manaan2, 

I'm so happy to hear you're going to try thiamine and magnesium!  Do let us know the results!  

You may want to add a B 50 Complex with two meals of the day to help boost absorption.  Thiamine interacts with each of the other B vitamins which are all water soluble.  

When supplementing magnesium, make sure to get sufficient calcium.  Calcium and magnesium need to be kept in balance.  If you choose a calcium supplement, take two hours apart from magnesium as they compete for absorption.  Take Calcium with Vitamin D.  Vitamin D helps calm the immune system.  

For pain, I use a combination of thiamine, B12 Cobalamine, and Pyridoxine B6.  These three vitamins together have analgesic effects.  My preferred brand is "GSG 12X Takeda ALINAMIN EX Plus Vitamin B1 B6 B12 Health Supplementary from Japan 120 Tablets".  Alinamin is another form of thiamine.  It really is excellent at relieving my back pain from crushed vertebrae without side effects and no grogginess.  

Look into the low histamine version of the Autoimmune Protocol Duet (Dr. Sarah Ballentyne, a Celiac herself, developed it.)  It really helps heal the intestines, too.  It's like a vacation for the digestive system.  Add foods back gradually over several weeks after feeling better.  

I'm so happy to have pointed the way on your journey!  Let us know how the journey progresses!

P. S. Add a Potassium supplement, too.  Potassium is another electrolyte, like magnessium, that we need.

Edited February 12 by knitty kitty
Added Post Script

[Manaan2]

@knitty kitty 

The information you've provided is invaluable!  I have a lot more homework to do before we make the official switch but you have significantly increased my hope that we can get her off Miralax (she started at 3 years old and is almost 8!).  This weekend my husband and I plan to solidify all the details for a start point, then adjust as we go along.  I realize that everyone's body is different, then there's also the fact that she's a child but just out of curiosity if you don't mind sharing and if you'd rather not, no problem at all-how long did you take Miralax before switching and when you switched, did you just completely stop the Miralax or was there a period where you did Miralax and the supplements?  I plan to research that piece this weekend but just curious what you did.  

[knitty kitty]

@Manaan2,

I was on Miralax for several months after I crushed three vertebrae and fractured my hip.  The compression fractures of my vertebrae affected the Vagus nerve that stimulates digestion and intestinal movement, peristalsis.

Miralax just didn't relieve the constipation I was experiencing at all.  Nothing budged. 

I tried Milk of Magnesia (magnesium oxide) which pulls water into the digestive tract, and found that rather harsh and dehydrating.   Bad idea.

I was already taking thiamine in various forms, Benfotiamine, TTFD (tetrahydrofurfuryl  disulfude), Lipothiamine and Allithiamine.  Click on my name, then Activities in the pull down menu to get to my blog to learn more about my journey with thiamine.  

Since we need more thiamine when we are physically ill and emotionally stressed, I decided to focus on TTFD,  Benfotiamine, and magnesium l-threonate.  Within a week of increasing my doses a bit, my constipation was gone.  It took several more months to heal the compressed nerve damage.  For pain, I take a combination of TTFD, Pyridoxine B 6, and  Cobalamine B12 which together have an analgesic effect.  I can't function with pharmaceutical pain killers, besides they cause constipation.  

Mechanisms of action of vitamin B1 (thiamine), B6 (pyridoxine), and B12 (cobalamin) in pain: a narrative review

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35156556/

Yes, I did just stop the Miralax, but I wasn't on it as long as your daughter.  Yes, there's a difference between adults and children.  Yes, my circumstances were different than your daughter's, but thiamine deficiency does affect the nerves and the brain.  A twenty percent increase in dietary thiamine causes an eighty percent increase in brain function (which activates the Vagus nerve and controls digestion).  

I recommend you visit Dr. Chandler Marrs' website, hormonesmatter.com.  Dr. Marrs worked with Dr. Derrick Longsdale, a pioneer in thiamine research, specifically with children and autism spectrum disorders.  She has been very helpful to me when I reached out to her.  She would be better able to guide you about your daughter's care.

https://hormonesmatter.com/sibo-ibs-constipation-thiamine-deficiency/#google_vignette

Do stay in touch, please.  You can start another thread or personal message me any time.  My heart goes out to you, your husband, and especially your daughter.  

Namaste

[Mynx]

On 3/11/2023 at 6:18 PM, Leslie Clark said:

Recently diagnosed with Celiac Disease and must have strict gluten-free diet. I'm learning that even the distilled vinegar in ketchup can be with wheat (I'm super sensitive). My frustration comes with NOT knowing for certain and don't mind reading labels, but if the manufacturer of the food I might want to eat, won't just say what they've used, dangit, I go without it. I'm TRYING to be a good patient, but it's always the little hidden gluten that sets me into a flare .... I just want to eat and not have diarrhea because the food has gluten in it. I'm still learning and love all tips and tricks and fiber supplement recommendations anyone can give me. THANK YOU!!

 

Many people will tell you that distilled vinegar is gluten free. The reason this is believed is because the gluten protein molecule is too big to pass through the distillation process. Unfortunately, the liquid ie vinegar is cross contaminated because the gluten protein had been in the liquid prior to distillation process. Most people don't react to distilled vinegar. However, there is a very small group who are 100% gluten intolerant. I'm in thos group. Unless I make homemade ketchup using apple cider vinegar. The rest of the ingredients are gluten free. I have to research every ingredient on a label that I don't already know is gluten free. It's not easy but health wise, it's worth it. 

[Mynx]

On 3/11/2023 at 7:36 PM, trents said:

Welcome to the forum, Leslie!

Theoretically at least, distilling should remove all nonvolatile substances so distilled vinegar will actually be gluten free. But not all vinegar is distilled and some of the ones that are not distilled and are made from grains (like malt vinegar) would be a problem for celiacs. Having said that, I am also aware that there are those on this forum who claim to get glutened from even distilled spirits. We are not sure why this is. People have conjectured that some cross contamination may happen if the spirits are stored in barrels sealed with wheat paste. Look for catsup made from distilled white vinegar. You may have to contact the manufacturer to find out that much ingredient detail.

There is also the possibility that some other ingredient in that catsup brand does contain some gluten. Does it say "gluten free" on the container?

It isn't a conjecture. I have gotten glitened from having some distilled white vinegar as a test. When I talked to some of my scientists friends, they confirmed that for a mall percentage of people, distilled white vinegar is a problem. The cross contamination isn't from wheat glue in a cask. While yhe gluten protein is too large to pass through the distillation process, after the distillation process, the vinegar is still cross contaminated. Please don't dismiss or disregard the small group of people who are 100^ gluten intolerant by saying things are conjecture. Just because you haven't done thr research or aren't as sensitive to gluten doesn't mean that everyone is like you. 

[trents]

@Mynx, you say, "The reason this is believed is because the gluten protein molecule is too big to pass through the distillation process. Unfortunately, the liquid ie vinegar is cross contaminated because the gluten protein had been in the liquid prior to distillation process."

I guess I misunderstand what you are trying to say but the statements in those two sentences seem to contradict one another.

[Mynx]

On 3/11/2023 at 7:37 PM, captaincrab55 said:

FYI, Heinz Ketchup is safe for me, but Hunts Ketchup sets off my Dermatitis Herpetiformis.   Distilled flavored vinegar may be a problem if the flavoring contains gluten.   Many of your questions have already been answered here.     You just need to use the site search function for most of your questions .

 

The reason that it triggers your dermatitis herpetiformis but not your celiac disease is because you aren't completely intolerant to gluten. The celiac and dermatitis herpetiformis genes are both on the same chronometer. Dermatitis herpetoformus reacts to gluten even if there's a small amount of cross contamination while celiac gene may be able to tolerate a some gluten or cross contamination. It just depends on the sensitivity of the gene. 

[Mynx]

Just now, trents said:

@Mynx, you say, "The reason this is believed is because the gluten protein molecule is too big to pass through the distillation process. Unfortunately, the liquid ie vinegar is cross contaminated because the gluten protein had been in the liquid prior to distillation process."

I guess I misunderstand what you are trying to say but the statements in those two sentences seem to contradict one another.

No they do not contradict each other. Just like frying oil can be cross contaminated even though the oil doesn't contain the luten protein. The same is the same for a distilled vinegar or spirit which originally came from a gluten source. Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean you can tell me that my sentences contradict each other. Do you have a PhD in biochemistry or friends that do and access to a lab?  If not, saying you don't understand is one thing anything else can be dangerous to others. 

[trents]

Take it easy! I was just prompting you for some clarification. 

In the distillation process, the liquid is boiled and the vapor descends up a tube and condenses into another container as it cools. What people are saying is that the gluten molecules are too large and heavy to travel up with the vapor and so get left behind in the original liquid solution. Therefore, the condensate should be free of gluten, no matter if there was gluten in the original solution. The explanation contained in the second sentence I quoted from your post would not seem to square with the physics of the distillation process. Unless, that is, I misunderstood what you were trying to explain.

[Scott Adams]

13 hours ago, Mynx said:

Many people will tell you that distilled vinegar is gluten free. The reason this is believed is because the gluten protein molecule is too big to pass through the distillation process. Unfortunately, the liquid ie vinegar is cross contaminated because the gluten protein had been in the liquid prior to distillation process. Most people don't react to distilled vinegar. However, there is a very small group who are 100% gluten intolerant. I'm in thos group. Unless I make homemade ketchup using apple cider vinegar. The rest of the ingredients are gluten free. I have to research every ingredient on a label that I don't already know is gluten free. It's not easy but health wise, it's worth it. 

Many major brands of distilled vinegar in the USA, including Heinz white vinegar, are typically made from corn. In the United States, corn is a common and cost-effective raw material used in the production of distilled white vinegar. The process involves fermenting the sugars derived from corn into alcohol, which is then further fermented into acetic acid to produce vinegar. Distillation follows, which purifies the liquid and removes impurities, including any residual proteins or allergens. While the source of the vinegar (e.g., corn) is not always explicitly stated on the label, corn-derived vinegar is widely used in the food industry due to its neutral flavor and affordability. For individuals with gluten intolerance or celiac disease, distilled vinegar made from corn is generally considered safe, as the distillation process effectively removes gluten proteins. However, if you have concerns about cross-contamination or specific sensitivities, it’s always a good idea to contact the manufacturer directly to confirm the sourcing and production practices. Heinz, for example, has stated that their distilled white vinegar is gluten-free and safe for those with celiac disease, but verifying this information can provide additional peace of mind.

The belief that distilled vinegar is gluten-free is rooted in the scientific understanding that gluten proteins, which are large and complex molecules, are generally too big to pass through the distillation process. Distillation involves heating a liquid to create vapor, which is then condensed back into a liquid form, leaving behind larger molecules like gluten proteins. However, the concern about cross-contamination arises from the possibility that gluten-containing ingredients may have been present in the liquid prior to distillation. While the distillation process itself is highly effective at removing gluten, the equipment used in production could potentially introduce trace amounts of gluten if not thoroughly cleaned between batches. For most individuals with gluten sensitivity or celiac disease, distilled vinegar is considered safe because the gluten content, if any, is typically below the threshold that would trigger a reaction. However, for those with extreme gluten intolerance or celiac disease, even trace amounts can cause adverse effects. This is why some individuals, like yourself, may choose to avoid commercially produced distilled vinegar and opt for alternatives like apple cider vinegar, which can be verified as gluten-free. The meticulous process of researching ingredients and preparing homemade products, such as ketchup, is indeed challenging but crucial for maintaining health and avoiding gluten exposure. It’s important to note that regulatory standards for gluten-free labeling vary by region, and in many places, products labeled "gluten-free" must contain less than 20 parts per million (ppm) of gluten, which is considered safe for the vast majority of people with celiac disease. Nonetheless, individual sensitivity levels can vary, and your approach highlights the importance of personalized dietary management for those with severe gluten intolerance.

[Scott Adams]

@Mynx, how long have you been gluten-free? I ask because many newly diagnosed celiacs react to many things, and often think their reactions are caused by gluten, when in fact, they are really caused by a combination of a sensitive gut due to damage, as well as additional food intolerance/leaky gut issues to other foods which may be temporary until their villi heal.