Thiamine supplementation

[Sultana]

I hope someone can help. I've read some of posts on here on thiamine and wondered if anyone knew about thiamine interactions with manganese? I've googled and found that thiamine and manganese work together. I read that manganese is also good for blood sugar...

I have been using it on and off for a while (benfotiamine). I have not been diagnosed as a celiac, I've been tested in the past, but who knows. I do have non alcoholic fatty liver disease, often get diabetes symptoms but not diabetic (runs in family), evidence of gallstones have been found before (misdiagnosed as IBS?). I also lost a litre of blood when I gave birth earlier this year and was put on high dose iron (which I react badly to and get joint and muscle pain - low manganese? Docs have no idea why?) I've also had low vit d in the past and had to take high doses, I've also been taking k2, magnesium and b complex for a while. I occasionally feel like I have malabsorption issues, like I'm not getting energy from my food.

My main reason for using thiamine: I read that it can take away "diabetes symptoms", and it does!! I had blurry vision, reacted badly to carbs and sugar, crashed in energy after eating etc. Also my stomach was bloated my face was swollen. 

So after taking thiamine in the past I found that the "good energy" effects wore off, I guess because of manganese?

In the past week, I suddenly had shortness of breath at night (wasn't on thiamine for a while) and also tiredness. After going to the doctors then hospital they couldn't find anything wrong with me other than "mild acidosis". They weren't concerned about that, so I had a look in to it and voila: thiamine deficiency can cause acidosis! And it has taken the symptoms away!

So I'm here looking to see if others have gone through a similar thing and if anyone could guide me.

[knitty kitty]

Welcome to the forum, @Sultana!

I have Type Two Diabetes and I take Benfotiamine, too.  

Several minerals like to work with Thiamine including magnesium, manganese, and chromium.  These all help with various aspects of diabetes.  

Helpful reading...

Effects of Chromium Picolinate Supplementation on Cardiometabolic Biomarkers in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes Mellitus: a Randomized Clinical Trial

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7192664/

And...

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Chromium-HealthProfessional/

And...

The Effects of Oral Magnesium Supplementation on Glycemic Response among Type 2 Diabetes Patients

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6356710/

And...

Association of vitamin D and magnesium with insulin sensitivity and their influence on glycemic control

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9850798/

And...

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Manganese-Consumer/

[Scott Adams]

The most common nutrient deficiencies associated with celiac disease that may lead to testing for the condition include iron, vitamin D, folate (vitamin B9), vitamin B12, calcium, zinc, and magnesium.  Unfortunately many doctors, including my own doctor at the time, don't do extensive follow up testing for a broad range of nutrient deficiencies, nor recommend that those just diagnosed with celiac disease take a broad spectrum vitamin/mineral supplement, which would greatly benefit most, if not all, newly diagnosed celiacs.

Because of this it took me decades to overcome a few long-standing issues I had that were associated with gluten ataxia, for example numbness and tingling in my feet, and muscle knots--especially in my shoulders an neck. Only long term extensive supplementation has helped me to resolve these issues.

 

 

 

[Celiac16]

I have found similar benefits from thiamine. I was diagnosed with celiac at 16 and never really recovered despite strict gluten and dairy free diet and no detectable antibodies on checkup bloodworks. I’ve tried stopping the b1 but start to feel bad again- I wanted my doctors to do more extensive testing for the different thiamine transporters and enzymes which would be a better indication if I was deficient or dependent on it but everyone dismisses it (there are know genetic mutations where you need to take it daily for life). I have looked into Thiamine Responsive Megablast Anemia and I have a lot of the more mild symptoms of the disease that manifest when thiamine isn’t given to the patient such as optic neuritis… I just find the parallels interesting.

i think that celiacs could be a side issue of inflammation that resulted from vitamin deficiencies. I was eating a lot of sugar leading up to my diagnosis and since eating gluten free didn’t make me feel much better, I’m wondering if this was more the underlying issue (sugar heavily depletes b1). I usually take 1.5g thiamine a day.

[Scott Adams]

You may want to look into Benfotiamine, which is the fat soluble version of B1.

[Celiac16]

Thanks @Scott AdamsYes I alternate between forms just to experiment. I definitely agree that there are probably a variety of nutrients I am probably lacking too.

I forgot to mention @Sultana that I also experienced symptoms of acidosis that resolved with continuous thiamine supplementation- my bloodwork showed slightly elevated anion gaps (sign of acidosis) and elevated lactic acid (same) and was experiencing shortness of breath, tachycardia, etc that was dismissed as anxiety as it wasn’t off the charts enough… (I too went to the ER bc I felt so awful). When I was discharged home, I took the b1 and symptoms resolved.. After researching, I found studies by Dr Constantini with high dose thiamine for fatigue in IBD. (He did studies for many chronic diseases which were ameliorated by “high” dose b1).

I’m not sure how reliable it is but I’ve read a lot of articles by Dr Lonsdale formally of the Cleveland clinic who did a lot of research into thiamine- apparently the sulfur component of thiamine promotes the excretion of metals ( whether good or bad, so manganese might be effected)… id like to cover my bases with a multivitamin but they usually make me feel off( Its a rabbit hole trying to find a good one - I know I don’t tolerate methylated forms and there are many variables it’s hard to narrow it down…)

I take breaks with b1 too when the effects wear off but have come back to it repeatedly with renewed symptom relief. I’ve started to monitor my blood glucose at home too and it definitely lowers it.

[Celiac16]

On 4/15/2024 at 1:55 PM, Celiac16 said:

@Sultana i have found similar benefits from thiamine. I was diagnosed with celiac at 16 and never really recovered despite strict gluten and dairy free diet and no detectable antibodies on checkup bloodworks. I’ve tried stopping the b1 but start to feel bad again- I wanted my doctors to do more extensive testing for the different thiamine transporters and enzymes which would be a better indication if I was deficient or dependent on it but everyone dismisses it (there are know genetic mutations where you need to take it daily for life). I have looked into Thiamine Responsive Megablast Anemia and I have a lot of the more mild symptoms of the disease that manifest when thiamine isn’t given to the patient such as optic neuritis… I just find the parallels interesting.

i think that celiacs could be a side issue of inflammation that resulted from vitamin deficiencies. I was eating a lot of sugar leading up to my diagnosis and since eating gluten free didn’t make me feel much better, I’m wondering if this was more the underlying issue (sugar heavily depletes b1). I usually take 1.5g thiamine a day.

i am trying a low carb (20g or less) diet (high fat and protein) and i feel a lot better. I was also getting nausea and dizziness after eating before and I don’t with the diet. 

[knitty kitty]

@Celiac16,

When the effects wear off, have you tried taking MORE thiamine?  

Have you tried Allithiamine (Tetrahydrofurfuryl Disulfide TTFD) or Thiamax?  Are you taking a magnesium supplement, too?

[Celiac16]

@knitty kitty yes I have tried higher doses - I think I’ve done 10 g hcl in a day a few times… I know in hospital for Wernicke they can give 500g injections which is obviously absorbed at magnitudes higher.

Magnesium really knocks me out so I don’t take it (I could only take it at bed). I did supplement for a while but didn’t feel it helped. I’ve used benfothiamine for a while (2 months) and also don’t think I see a difference with hcl. I don’t feel comfortable ordering a supplement from a brand that’s not really big/well known so I stick to the more mainstream options. 

I have a really great CFS Dr who would prescribe thiamine shots too but she worries about taking them for too long and throwing off other things which I also worry about.

thiamine has sulfur which excretes metals and I don’t want to lower good nutrients like chromium, selenium, manganese, etc. I’ve had a hard time tolerating multivitamins, they make me feel wierd and there’s too many variables to narrow down… 

i know biotin has similar pathways in the body to thiamine so i will also take that occasionally and find similar benefits (there are also a few genetic diseases where they are taken in tandem).

[Celiac16]

Sorry i meant 500mg**

[knitty kitty]

@Celiac16,

Thiamine (any form including Benfotiamine) needs magnesium to make life sustaining enzymes.  Taking Thiamine without sufficient magnesium means the body cannot use Thiamine properly.  

I understand how magnesium can make you feel  "knocked out" but that goes away with continued supplementation.  When I first started supplementing magnesium, I took it at bedtime, too.  Magnesium helps muscles relax, so feeling really knocked out was a sign to me I was deficient.  I kept taking it.  Magnesium doesn't knock me out anymore since my deficiency was corrected.

Thiamine chelates heavy metals like Lead and Cadmium.  Thiamine binds irreversibly with dangerous heavy metals like Lead and Cadmium, so they can be removed from the body through the digestive tract.  

Thiamine combines with chromium to form an enzyme.  Thiamine and chromium separately both help regulate blood glucose levels and use of insulin.  Thiamine and Selenium are both utilized in the thyroid.  Enzymes made with manganese are used after thiamine enzymes inside cells.  

Thiamine interacts with each of the other B vitamins.  Each of the B vitamins is needed at different points in the production of energy for cell metabolism.  

You are doing yourself a disservice by not supplementing with the other B vitamins and magnesium as well as Thiamine.  Insufficiencies in the other B vitamins can affect how well Thiamine is utilized in the body.  

Some people don't like a B Complex supplement because Nicotinic Acid or Niacin Vitamin B 3 causes flushing.  Flushing is temporary, and goes away with continued use.  I've heard it said, the worse the flush, the more your body needs the niacin.  As deficiency levels are corrected, the flushing ceases.  

If you don't like B Complex, take each of the eight B vitamins separately.

Vitamins A, D and C are important as well.  Vitamin D helps regulate inflammation.  Vitamin A and C help in healing.  

Have you been referred to a Nutritionist?

References:

Subclinical magnesium deficiency: a principal driver of cardiovascular disease and a public health crisis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5786912/

Vitamins and Minerals for Energy, Fatigue and Cognition: A Narrative Review of the Biochemical and Clinical Evidence

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7019700/

Effects of Combined Dietary Chromium(III) Propionate Complex and Thiamine Supplementation on Insulin Sensitivity, Blood Biochemical Indices, and Mineral Levels in High-Fructose-Fed Rats

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3510416/

[Celiac16]

@knitty kitty it’s hard for me to figure out what causes the reactions in multivitamins for me - I found out through individual supplements that I can’t do methylated forms - methyl folate and methyl cobalamin both gave me hives. It’s really tedious trying out each form of vitamin individually but I do taken b2 and b6 too for nausea/vertigo. I can’t tolerate b3 bc it gives me nausea and hives.

I actually feel pretty good where I’m at now and kind of have supplementation fatigue - it’s so much work doing trial and errors that I’d like to hold my course for a bit. 

[knitty kitty]

@Celiac16,

Have you tried taking Niacinamide, the non-flushing form of Niacin Vitamin B 3?

Have you tried non-methylated forms of Cobalamine B12 and Folate B 9? 

Nausea and vertigo can be helped by Thiamine.  Vitamin D helps with vertigo, too.