Omg...i Might Be On To Something

[Fiddle-Faddle]

That reminds me of a wildlife park/petting zoo in Oregon that has deer and goats running free. I wonder if the captive deer would be different since they aren't out in the wild. Hubby and I went down there 8 years ago. Hmmmm.

They might not be out in the wild, but they are outdoors, with grass, trees, etc.

[AndreaB]

This is a very interesting line of discussion. I've run past articles before about petting zoos and all the germs/bacteria etc. that kids can get on their hands and how they can get sick. Wonder if that would apply to adults.

I love animals too Rachel.

[Rachel--24]

This is a very interesting line of discussion. I've run past articles before about petting zoos and all the germs/bacteria etc. that kids can get on their hands and how they can get sick. Wonder if that would apply to adults.

Andrea....anyone can get sick from germs/bacteria...its just that mostly kids are the ones petting all the animals in the petting zoo. I just happen to be a big kid who always has to go into the petting zoos.

They usually have hand sanitizer in the petting zoos....you're supoosed to use it before and after touching the animals.

[AndreaB]

Here's something I found.

Petting Zoos

Children are enchanted by face-to-face encounters with animals in public settings. But their fascination can fade quickly if the animal gives them a disease.

"In the past few years, we've seen numerous outbreaks of disease among persons visiting petting zoos, farms and county fairs," says John Dunn, D.V.M., Ph.D., an epidemiologist at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

Infections in people, particularly children, have been linked to venues where they had hands-on contact with animals. One of the largest outbreaks occurred in 2000 among school groups and families that visited a dairy farm in Worcester, Pa. Fifty-one people reported symptoms that included bloody diarrhea, fever, and vomiting within 10 days of their visit. While none of the infected people died, 16 needed to be hospitalized, including one child who required a kidney transplant.

The illnesses, caused by a strain of the bacterium Escherichia coli (E. coli), arose from nail-biting, eating food, or other manners of touching the mouth with hands after petting the animals, according to the CDC. This and similar incidents prompted the CDC to publish federal safety guidelines for operators of events and facilities that offer public contact with farm animals. The guidelines recommend providing hand-washing facilities with soap and disposable towels, posting information about diseases that can be contracted from animals, and prohibiting human food in the interaction area.

"We're not advocating that people don't interact with animals," says Dunn. "We want to emphasize hygiene and education; people should be informed that there is some risk when handling animals, especially when eating afterwards without washing their hands."

This one doesn't seem to pertain as much, but it's interesting.

Zoonotic Diseases

While some diseases show host species specificity, meaning that they can only occur in one animal species, many other diseases can be spread between different animal species, including humans and animals. These diseases are collectively known as zoonotic diseases. The term zoonoses, is derived from Greek zoon (animals) and noses (diseases) that literally mean diseases from animals.

Zoonotic diseases can be transmitted by a variety of routes. Some documented ways include direct and indirect contact with infected animals, airborne exposure to infective agents shed by animals, consumption of animal products, consumption of water that has been contaminated by animal fecal material, or exposure to insect vectors such as fleas or ticks.

Previously, the primary mode of transmission of zoonotic diseases at agricultural fairs, petting zoos, and farm visits was thought to be fecal-oral, that is, by ingestion of bacteria-laden feces via contaminated food or water, or transfer by hand to mouth following contact with contaminated surfaces or animals. Conclusions reached by investigators in several recent fair-associated outbreaks of E. coli O157:H7 suggest that ingestion or perhaps even inhalation of contaminated dust particles may be how fair attendees become infected with the bacteria.

Open Original Shared Link

Article below:

CO-INFECTIONS

Because some diseases are transmittable to humans it is wise to discourage small children from kissing their pets, especially on their mouths. Equally advisable is to discourage pets from licking the face or mouth of a human. It is also prudent to encourage children to be careful with animals in petting zoos and to wash their hands after leaving (carrying disinfecting wipes is a good idea).

It is possible to have an overlap of Lyme disease symptoms with one or more tick-borne diseases such as Ehrlichiosis, Anaplasma, Babesiosis, Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever, Bartonellosis and Q Fever (Q for Query), thus increasing the difficulty of diagnosis and treatment management. The co-infections do not affect all animals.

As with Lyme disease, co-infections are a stronger possibility in animals that are in a higher tick exposure environment. For example, dogs used for hunting are definitely at an enhanced risk for multiple infections. Recent evidence indicates that veterinary care should include screening for a panel of tick-transmitted pathogens when a sick dog has a history of tick exposure in endemic areas. One veterinarian in the US reported the test results for a dog brought in; Lyme disease was found as well as 5 co-infections!

Recent molecular and serologic findings indicate that coinfection of multiple pathogens is probably more frequent than had been realized. It has also been found that dogs infected with Ehrlichia and Bartonella are more prone to nosebleeds. Further research is needed to determine how multiple infections can impact the severity of illness.

As the list of symptoms of co-infections is long, it is highly improbable that an animal at risk would have all the symptoms. Here are some further notes on the other tick-borne diseases; all can present as a single infection or as co-infections.

Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever

This disease is caused by the organism Rickettsia rickettsii when a dog tick is attached for 5 to 20 hours. It occurs mostly in the spring and summer, poses a greater risk to dogs under 4 years old and large breed dogs ( most likely to be outdoors more frequently). German Shephards may be at higher risk than other purebreds.

Clinical signs of the disease are swelling of the face and limbs, fever, depression, abdominal pain, coughing, loss of appetite, enlarged lymph nodes, pinpoint hemorrhages under the skin (called petecchiae), eye inflammation, swollen or painful joints and pneumonia. With active infection it is possible that the organs of an animals body could be affected.

It is reported that other small mammals are vulnerable but no further information is available at this time. However, cats and dogs can bring in infected ticks that could infect humans. There is no vaccine available for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

Babesiosis

Caused by an organism of the genus Babesia canis or Babesia gibsoni; these species are protozoa, different from bacteria, thus requiring a different treatment protocol.

Dogs under three years of age are more susceptible although older dogs do sometimes present with anemia, loss of platelets (decreasing the blood's ability to clot) or inflammation. Greyhounds are more vulnerable than other breeds. Babesiosis, while it mainly affects red blood cells, can involve many organ systems, and can result in many complications. The disease can be mild or can lead to fatalities.

Signs to watch for are: pale gums, lethargy & weakness, labored or fast breathing, inability to produce urine or red colored urine, excessive thirst, poor appetite, jaundice (yellow coloration of the gums & eyes), fever, coughing, bloody & frothy nasal discharge, collapse, seizures or coma.

Cats are also vulnerable to Babesiosis; watch for: fever, vomiting, diarrhea, loss of appetite, weight loss, cough, breathing difficulties, depression, jaundice, enlarged lymph nodes, seizures, muscle spasm, paralysis and blindness.

Equine babesiosis (also called Equine piroplasmosis) can be caused by two species: Babesia equi (or Theileria equi) and Babesia caballi. B. equi causes more severe disease. A number of ticks can carry Babesiosis. Donkeys and mules are included in Equine Babesiosis.

Susceptibility to Babesia can be of special concern to horses involved in international trading or equestrian sports. The United States and Canada are considered to be disease free though it is endemic in South and Central America, the Caribbean, Africa, the Middle East, and Eastern and Southern Europe. Therefore, there is a risk of introduction in situations where infected and non-infected animals are together, such as equestrian events.

Severe health problems are unlikely in horses that are routinely exposed to Babesia but some infected horses can become very ill or die. Signs to watch for are: fever, swollen abdomens, constipation, colic, breathing difficulties, jaundiced mucous membranes, loss of appetite, and depression. Although the chronic form usually appears after an acute phase, clinical signs are not specific and include: loss of condition, poor exercise tolerance and slow recovery. Rare atypical forms include gastro-enteritis, broncho-pneumonia and abortions.

The disease is not known to be a problem with cattle or other ruminants in North America.

Bartonellosis

In the past Bartonellosis was called Cat Scratch Fever as it could be passed to humans through a simple scratch. Fleas as well as ticks may carry the organisms responsible.

In 1993, Bartonella vinsoni (berkhoffii) was isolated in dogs. However, because this discovery is recent, data is limited. There has been one case reported with Bartonella henselae implicated. Dogs more prone to Bartonella are those at risk in high tick exposure areas, exposure to infected cattle or heavy flea exposure. With only basic knowledge available as yet, manifestation of the disease is known to present as heart (specifically endocarditis) , lymphatic, liver and rhinitis (nose) disorders.

The parasite responsible for Bartonella in cats is mycoplasma haemofelis. Two strains of this organism have been identified; one in Ohio, the other in California. Mother cats can pass the pathogen to kittens though how that is possible, whether in utero or nursing, has not be determined. Symptoms include anemia, pale mucous membranes, poor appetite, depression, fever, weakness, enlarged spleen and jaundice. Chronically infected cats may present with intermittent fever and weight loss. The chronic stage may become a subclinical infection that recurrs after stress.

Present knowledge does not include other domestic animals as being vulnerable to Bartonella. However, in 2000, a study on Bartonella species in wild and domestic ruminants in North America, found that 49% of cattle, 90% of mule deer and 15% of elk tested positive.

Ehrlichiosis & Anaplasma

There are several Ehrlichia species that are known to infect dogs. Because Ehrlichia are rickettsial organisms they are difficult to isolate using conventional tissue cultures. Clinical diagnosis can be difficult as symptoms are not always noticeable or specific; a dog can live for years without presenting any major "bell ringing" symptoms. The organisms responsible are: Ehrlichia canis, Ehrlichia platys,Ehrlichia chaffeensis, ehrlichia ewingii, and Ehrlichia equi (Anaplasma phagocytophilum).

Worldwide, E. canis is the most significant cause of infection in dogs. There can be a wide range in the severity & duration of the illness. While animal infections can provide an awareness of the potential for infections in humans, with Ehrlichia, human patients have contributed to recognition of the manifestations in animals.

Perhaps the most notable generic symptom is that a sick dog will just not seem to be in the peak of health. The animal is depressed, (lethargic and uninterested in daily routine). There may be discharge from the eyes or nose, enlarged lymph nodes, poor appetite or possible breathing difficulties. These symptoms mark the acute stage which manifests at 8 to 20 days after infection. At this point the disease is easily treatable, fatalities are rare and spontaneous recovery may occur.

However, if these early symptoms go unnoticed the illness goes into a sub clinical stage where no symptoms are in evidence. Thus begins a five year decline in health that decimates the immune system. Treatment in this stage is not simple but remains possible.

The later chronic stage is the most difficult. While the disease can become debilitating, it can also be fatal. Dogs may present swelling, severe weight loss, nosebleeds, and/or blood disorders. The animal may be prone to vague symptoms to outright kidney failure, cancer or brain inflammation. Unfortunately, there is still little information regarding long term treatment follow-up for dogs with Ehrlichiosis.

Ehrlichiosis in cats is less well-defined, and the pattern of the development of disease is not yet well known. Present evidence indicates that three species of Ehrlichia are responsible for infection: E. risticii, E. canis, and E. phagocytophilia (Anaplasma phagocytophilum). The lack of knowledge is mainly due to the under recognition of feline tick-borne infections and the fact that cats often have a decreased development of disease, compared to other animals. However, known cases of Ehrlichiosis, such as they are, have provided some insight into symptom possibilities.

In experiments, clinical symptoms of E. risticii include fever, depression, lymph node disorders, poor appetite and diarrhea. In 2001 there were only 50 suspected or proven cases of E. canis. Of those cases, where age was reported, most were over two years of age and were domestic short hairs. Symptoms included poor appetite, lethargy, joint pain, weight loss, breathing difficulties, and swollen spleen and lymph nodes.

Because healthy cats can also test positive for Ehrlichiosis, diagnosis of a suspected case should not rely on serology, but should include clinical symptoms, testing to exclude other diseases, and monitored response to anti-rickettsial medications. It is possible for cats to be infected with more than one specie of Ehrlichiosis. Therefore it is possible that infected cats could present as a reservoir of infection for humans. Outdoor cats should be protected with a tick collar or deterrent, and be groomed frequently.

Horses are vulnerable to two species of Ehrlichiosis: Ehrlichia equi (also known as Equine Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis) and Ehrlichia risticii (also known as Equine Ehrlichial Colitis, Equine Monocytic Ehrlichiosis and/or Potomac horse Fever).

E. risticii, or Potomac horse fever, has not been reported outside of North America, often occurring in only one animal out of several on a farm. Clinical symptoms are lethargy, poor appetite, fever, ileus (intestinal obstruction), colic, diarrhea and laminitis (inflammation of the tissues inside the hoof wall). It is unlikely that the majority of these symptoms would be present. However, symptoms of intestinal obstruction is the most common of clinical finding and diarrhea develops in about 60% of infected horses.

In the early phase changes in the leukocytes of the blood are notable; leukocytes being the blood corpuscles that protect the body against micro organisms that cause disease. The severity of symptoms can vary widely. Without treatment, the mortality rate ranges from 5 to 30% as a result of toxemia. It is sometimes necessary for a horse to be euthanized due to laminitis.

Blood tests are generally not a reliable method of diagnosis. There is a recent development of a more specific diagnostic test, the Western Blot, but it may not be available in Canada. Because a definitive diagnosis may not be available, administration of the appropriate antibiotics may be an effective method of determining the infection. If E. risticii is the causative agent improvement will be noted within 12 hours. The improvement will be noticeable in temperature of the animal, upgraded attitude, feed intake and gastrointestinal sounds. If such dramatic response to the antibiotics is not present, the diagnosis and selection of antibiotic should be reconsidered.

Ehrlichia equi, now renamed as Anaplasma phagocytophilum, has been confirmed in several states, British Columbia, Sweden, Great Britain, and South America. Although horses and humans appear to be infected with strains of the same causative agent, it is not believed that direct transmission is possible from horses to humans.

The severity of clinical symptoms can vary with the age of the infected animal and the duration of illness. Younger horses may present with only a fever while some animals up to three years old may exhibit fever, depression, some swelling of limbs and lack of coordination (ataxia). Adult horses also present with fever, some loss of appetite, depression, reluctance to move, limb swelling, lesions, jaundice and petichiation. Symptoms worsen over several days and in rare situations, heart arrythmias may be present. Concurrent infectious ailments, such as a wound or respiratory problem, will be worsened with the presence of Ehrlichiosis in the system. Diagnosis is determined by the exclusion of other possible illnesses, clinical findings and blood tests.

Sheep, goats, and llamas are also at risk for infection with A. phagocytophilum in North America but little information is available.

Donkeys and mules would have the same vulnerability to Ehrlichiosis as horses. Cattle are not at risk in North America.

Q Fever

Q fever, caused by the rickettsial organism, Coxiella burnetti, does not normally cause clinical disease in animals with the possible exception of abortion in sheep and goats. Known worldwide, the disease is underreported, therefore accurate assessment is not possible. It is worth including in cooinfections because of the risk of infection to humans through animals.

Animals shed the microbe in their urine, feces, milk and particularly in birth products. The organisms resist heat, drying and many common disinfectants, allowing long term survival in soil and dust. Due to its highly infectious nature it is a serious concern on farms. Therefore all farm animals are at risk as are those who work with farm animals. Only a few contaminated organisms floating in airborne dust are all that is necessary for infection to be passed on, either to humans or other animals. It may be prudent for farm dogs to be tested prior to breeding.

Tuleremia

Tuleremia is the bacterium Francisella tularenisis, a highly contagious disease that affects 250 species, including birds, reptiles, fish, wild and domestic animals and humans. It is primarily transmitted by ticks in the adult stage, though the nymph and larval stages are also capable of transmission. Although there are two types, only Type A is found in North America. Carnivores, including dogs and cats, can be infected by eating infected carcasses such as rabbits or rodents.

Dogs are considered resistant but there is a high prevalence in dogs in endemic areas. Illness is not always apparent therefore reports of clinical signs are limited. In reported cases, disease has been self-limiting with supportive treatment. Symptoms include: nasal and eye discharge, pus lesions at the bite site, lymph node abcesses, fever, poor appetite, muscle pain, and weakness.

Cats infected with Tuleremia can experience a range of the disease, from nonapparent illness to fatal sepsis (bacteria in the blood) and death. When apparent, clinical signs may include fever, depression, lymph node abcesses, skin abcesses, muscle pain, eye disorders, mouth or tongue ulcers, intestinal disorders, liver and/or spleen enlargement, jaundice, weight loss, poor appetite, pneumonia, weakness.

Sheep infection is usually a seasonal disease reflecting the months of tick infestation. Affected sheep may islolate themselves from the flock. Death is more common in lambs (up to 15% of untreated lambs during an outbreak) and pregnant ewes. Clinical signs are fever, rigid gait, diarrhea, frequent urination, weight loss and difficulty breathing.

Cattle appear to be resistant to Tuleremia although natural infection is evident from reports of seroconversion. At present there is little data showing the true incidence of infection or knowledge of clinical signs.

Horse infection reports are also limited; though known affected animals have been highly exposed to tick infestation. Existing data gives the clinical signs as fever, difficulty breathing, lack of coordination and depression. These symptoms would likely be similar in infected donkeys or mules.

Though goats, llamas and alpacas are all vulnerable there is little data on clinical signs or findings. It can probably be assumed that infection would be possible where the more common clinical signs are apparent, ie., fever, lethargy, poor appetite, stiffness, reduced mobility or other signs that would indicate a blood infection.

Tick Paralysis

Tick Paralysis is a relatively rare ailment that can prove fatal if the attached tick is not discovered and removed. Unlike other tick-borne illnesses, Tick Paralysis is not a disease but rather, a condition created by a toxic chemical substance in affected ticks. Unlike a pathogen-caused disease, Tick Paralysis recovery begins with the removal of the affected tick. While the Rocky Mountain wood tick is the specie of concern in British Columbia and the northwest US, the American dog tick is responsible in the southeastern US, though other areas of Canada and the US are also vulnerable. Other species of ticks may be involved: the blacklegged tick, the western blacklegged tick and the lonestar tick. However, not all ticks of a particular species can cause the condition.

Because of the rarity and lack of surveillance, information is scanty. However, Tick Paralysis is a serious concern on the east coast of Australia where 100,000 pets and 10,000 cattle are affected yearly. Therefore, much information is available from Australian sources.

Tick Paralysis occurs when an animal is bit by a female tick that secretes a chemical toxin from its salivary glands. As the tick feeds (up to several days), the toxin attacks the central nervous system (neurotoxin). In approximately seven to nine days after the tick attaches symptoms can be noticed.

All animals are at risk of Tick Paralysis. Symptoms begin with lack of coordination and numbness of the legs. As the paralysis moves upwards, the body becomes relaxed, the joints easily moved. In veterinary language this is called ascending, flaccid paralysis. Eventual paralysis of the limbs will move to the chest muscles, then to the voice box. A further complication will arise if the animal breathes stomach contents into the lungs, thereby causing severe, possibly fatal, pneumonia. The toxin can also cause sudden heart failure.

Tick removal with tweezers does not pose a danger of more toxin being released into the bite site. However, it is possible for the tick to be infected with any of the other tick-borne diseases and further infection is possible. Recovery from tick paralysis requires one to 14 days, depending on severity of illness. During this recovery time the animal must be discouraged from sleeping on its' side to prevent further risk of breathing stomach contents into the lungs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bibliography

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Journal of the American Veterinarians Association: 2000 April 1: 218 (7):1092-7 "Assessing the association between geographic distribution of deer ticks and seropositivity rates to various ticks-transmitted disease organisms in dogs.

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United States Police Canine Association: Open Original Shared Link

12th International Conference on Lyme Disease & Other Spirochetal & Tick Borne Disorders April 99: Lyme Disease in Dogs: Basic Research

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Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever Equine Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis Potomac Horse Fever Tularemia Tick Paralysis Open Original Shared Link

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[Rachel--24]

Yeah....I wonder if its not Lyme what other bacteria I coould have picked up?? I wonder if theres anything else that could cause my symptoms?? Something that has the same "tail" as the Lyme bacteria?? I have antibodies against the tail of the Lyme bacteria....but it could be any bacteria that has a tail.

Stupid tests....its all giving me a headache now.....getting me all stessed out.

I dont think it could be E. Coli.....because that would cause different symptoms.

Man...I hope my Dr. can tell me something more definative on Dec. 4th.

At my last appt. I said "So can I be confident that I have Lyme Disease?" He looked at me kind of like this and said "You never want to be "confident" about having Lyme Disease."

What the heck does that mean??

I DO want to be confident!!!

[AndreaB]

At my last appt. I said "So can I be confident that I have Lyme Disease?" He looked at me kind of like this and said "You never want to be "confident" about having Lyme Disease."

What the heck does that mean??

I DO want to be confident!!!

Mitch loves your emoticon choice.

Ok, I'm confused too. The 4th is only 2 weeks away. I may keep you busier next week after I get back from seeing my dad. Don't have any idea how I'm going to feel after seeing him and returning home.

I suppose it's possible that you could have a bunch of co-infections that can mimic lyme, but you can't excuse the bite and rash even if you didn't see the bug.

[Rachel--24]

Andrea....good scientificness.

These are the co-infections I was tested for.

Babesiosis (Babesia)

Monocytic Ehrlichiosis

Granuloccytic Ehrlichiosis

Bartonella Henselae

Will find out soon enough...how many days till Dec. 4th??

[AndreaB]

Will find out soon enough...how many days till Dec. 4th??

2 weeks from tomorrow. It's on a Monday. Don't know the time though since you didn't tell me.

[Rachel--24]

I suppose it's possible that you could have a bunch of co-infections that can mimic lyme, but you can't excuse the bite and rash even if you didn't see the bug.

Thats what I'm not sure about....if you can have co-infections but NOT have Lyme??

2 weeks from tomorrow. It's on a Monday. Don't know the time though since you didn't tell me.

I forgot the time but they gave me a card....also they call me the Friday before to confirm...so I'll know when they call.

[AndreaB]

About the co-infections. It seems possible to get something from an animal that has the infection from the article I posted above. I skimmed it, but animals licking you, dust particles in the air; they can cause illness.

[Rachel--24]

About the co-infections. It seems possible to get something from an animal that has the infection from the article I posted above. I skimmed it, but animals licking you, dust particles in the air; they can cause illness.

I believe the co-infections in your article are co-infections found in animals. Some animals can get Lyme Disease and co-infections from ticks...animals can get tick-borne diseases but they cant transfer them to people.

I dont think its possible to "catch" the tick-borne illnesses from an animal....its possible to catch *other* diseases but not Lyme or most co-infections. I'm thinking the species of co-infections are different in humans than they are in animals....because the names are different.

For example in my test they are looking for Human Granuloccytic Ehrlichiosis and in the article you posted for dogs...there is this info

here are several Ehrlichia species that are known to infect dogs. Because Ehrlichia are rickettsial organisms they are difficult to isolate using conventional tissue cultures. Clinical diagnosis can be difficult as symptoms are not always noticeable or specific; a dog can live for years without presenting any major "bell ringing" symptoms. The organisms responsible are: Ehrlichia canis, Ehrlichia platys,Ehrlichia chaffeensis, ehrlichia ewingii, and Ehrlichia equi (Anaplasma phagocytophilum).

and for horses ...

Horses are vulnerable to two species of Ehrlichiosis: Ehrlichia equi (also known as Equine Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis) and Ehrlichia risticii (also known as Equine Ehrlichial Colitis, Equine Monocytic Ehrlichiosis and/or Potomac horse Fever).

Although horses and humans appear to be infected with strains of the same causative agent, it is not believed that direct transmission is possible from horses to humans.

To me it looks like there are many strains of certain types of bacteria...and humans as well as *some* animals are vulnerable but we are not all vulnerable to the same species. The animals cant transmit their tick-borne illnesses to people and we cant transmit our infections to animals. I think the infections come from ticks. It looks like the one that can be transmitted is Bartonella....from a cat scratch.

In the past Bartonellosis was called Cat Scratch Fever as it could be passed to humans through a simple scratch.

I could be wrong but I was certain I'd read that tick-borne diseases cant be transmitted from animal to person.

[rinne]

I'm thinking the co-infections mean Lyme. I need to understand this better. I don't get your doctor saying that, I'm thinking he doesn't know what it is like to spend four years having your life taken away by illness and needing to know what it is.

I think I got spoiled by Hoffman, I felt like he so totally got it that he was willing to give me the a clinical diagnosis based on my history and symptoms.

I am thinking that the mercury could be a bigger problem for you right now.

[Rachel--24]

I need to understand this better. I don't get your doctor saying that, I'm thinking he doesn't know what it is like to spend four years having your life taken away by illness and needing to know what it is.

I think he does "get it" because he's told me several times that after all I've been through I deserve to know *exactly* whats going on. He's told me that I should be angry for having to wait this long for someone to take me serious. He says he wants to give me all of the answers I should have had a long time ago. He's just not the type of Dr. to guess or assume what might be wrong. He wants to be POSITIVE....thats what I want too but the waiting is hard.

He obviously believes in getting answers from testing so I'm going with that because I want to be sure for myself as well.

I've kind of been down the road of getting a clinical diagnosis when I was diagnosing myself with candida. No Dr. would listen to me so I went to a Naturopath knowing she would listen. She diagnosed me with systemic Candidiasis just based on my symptoms and history....thats it. I was really happy because I felt like finally someone believed me and was agreeing with my diagnosis and confirming it but in the end it didnt mean much because I didnt get better.

I dont want to go down that road again...I want to have evidence that Lyme is the *correct* diagnosis since lots of things can cause similar symptoms.

I dont think I would be satisfied with a clinical diagnosis at this point. Also I havent completely ruled out the use of antibiotics.....I would most likely use them for the co-infections but not necessarily the Lyme. The co-infections can be dealt with using anti-biotics....they arent as "stealthy" as the Lyme. I cant have all of the treatment options available to me if I were to only receive a clinical diagnosis.

Thats why I'm sticking with this Dr. for now. Because he will use ALL methods of treatment....not just anti-biotics and not just alternative methods. I think a combination will be needed....especially with co-infections present.

[rinne]

I'm glad you feel he really does get it Rachel and it does sound like he is the right doctor for you given what you've just said. Waiting is hard.

I don't know if I am going to get this right and I'm too tired to go looking for it so please excuse but the way I understand it is that many people may have Lyme but will not get ill from it unless there is a stress point that triggers it, another illness, a car accident, another tick bite with different co-infection, etc. and it then becomes a problem once it is triggered. The question about the tests is whether or not they show latent or active Lyme in the body and that is why a clinical diagnosis is critical in conjunction with the blood tests because the tests might show Lyme but Lyme might not be the main problem.

I read somewhere that there are LLMDs who treat Lyme based on a clinical diagnosis and only one band being positive.

I don't mean to imply Lyme should ever be ignored.

[rinne]

I think if I had gone to Naturapath I might be more skeptical about my diagnosis, I do hear what you are saying.

When I realized I was in big trouble I wanted a doctor who knew how to negotiate both worlds and was trained in both of them. I haven't ruled out antibiotics either, it is just not my first choice.

[AndreaB]

How is it that dog/cat ticks aren't really known to be lyme carriers but deer tick are?

[Rachel--24]

I don't know if I am going to get this right and I'm too tired to go looking for it so please excuse but the way I understand it is that many people may have Lyme but will not get ill from it unless there is a stress point that triggers it, another illness, a car accident, another tick bite with different co-infection, etc. and it then becomes a problem once it is triggered. The question about the tests is whether or not they show latent or active Lyme in the body and that is why a clinical diagnosis is critical in conjunction with the blood tests because the tests might show Lyme but Lyme might not be the main problem.

Everything you wrote is accurate and is the same as what I was told by both the Dr. and the BioSET lady. They are saying that the Lyme (if there really is an infection) was present before I got sick....my immune system was keeping it in check. Once my immune system became weakened by other factors (mercury, stress, a co-infection or a combination of these things) the Lyme would have then been able to progress. It may not have progressed enough to be my primary problem but if its there....it is creating a burden on my immune system along with the other factors. So....it would need to be treated to take that burden off of my immune system.

Also, I was told that none of these other factors....not even the exposure to mercury would have been as severe a problem if not for the Lyme infection already creating a "situation waiting to happen". So its really a combination of things and all of them would need to be dealt with. It goes back to the whole layers of an onion thing. Gluten intolerance would be another layer....things just start piling up when the immune system gets overwhelmed.

There is no way to know whether the Lyme is latent or active (in every case)....even with symptoms present....as is the case with me. I have symptoms but are they caused by the Lyme, the mercury, candida, co-infections or something else?

All I can do is follow the treatment protocol for whatever we are certain that I have....according to the tests.

I know that if I went to an LLMD I could get a diagnosis of Lyme Disease...no doubt about it...but what about all the other factors? I need treatment for *everything* if I want to get better. I know that there probably just isnt one thing to treat. I think if co-infections are positive that would be a huge piece of the puzzle.

I'm thinking its very possible I had the Lyme from the time I had the bite and the flu-like symptoms but then maybe picked up a co-infection on this camping trip seen in my avatar. That would have tipped the scales I think.

One reason I'm not positive about mercury being the main cause is that when I think back to my original symptoms I had chills and hot flashes and alot of sweating. The symptoms seem more consistent with a systemic infection developing. Its just a guess though.

[rinne]

All I can do is follow the treatment protocol for whatever we are certain that I have....according to the tests.

I know that if I went to an LLMD I could get a diagnosis of Lyme Disease...no doubt about it...but what about all the other factors? I need treatment for *everything* if I want to get better. I know that there probably just isnt one thing to treat. I think if co-infections are positive that would be a huge piece of the puzzle.

I think you are right, I think they may be a real key to the puzzle.

[georgie]

Rachel, I know nothing about Lymes as we don't seem to have it here. We have no ticks at all. Jury is still debating whether Sydney ( which has ticks in the wildlife and bush)has it , or a variant of it. But I can comment on Thyroid in so much to say that having Thyroid weakens your immune system if you are not on the right meds. I notice you had Graves and Rai(?). Anyway - just my 2c worth.

[Rachel--24]

Rachel, I know nothing about Lymes as we don't seem to have it here. We have no ticks at all. Jury is still debating whether Sydney ( which has ticks in the wildlife and bush)has it , or a variant of it. But I can comment on Thyroid in so much to say that having Thyroid weakens your immune system if you are not on the right meds. I notice you had Graves and Rai(?). Anyway - just my 2c worth.

Funny thing is you DO have Lyme Disease there....they just arent sure how it GOT there.

I know about the thyroid issues....you've mentioned it before and posted about Armour. I've been on Armour for a couple years now and my labs are normal.

[CarlaB]

That's interesting about the animals. I only skimmed it ... my step-father is a hunter and our labradors always had ticks.

Andrea, I know there are different kinds of ticks, and I have read that while deer ticks prefer deer, they will got to dogs and humans. So, even though there are other ticks that like dogs and humans better than deer ticks do, dogs and humans can get deer ticks.

We have always lived where there were deer. Granted, there weren't as many deer when I was a kid as there are now, but they've always been around.

[happygirl]

x

[AndreaB]

Already saw it.

YEA!!!!!

Now for your eos results in a couple days.......

[dlp252]

x!

Oh that is SOOOOOOO WONDERFUL!!!!! I am so happy for you both!

[jerseyangel]

Hi Laura,

I answered over there, but I wanted to say again how happy I am to hear that you and Eric will be back living full time together. I know firsthand (I think I told you) how difficult the long distance marriage can be--what a nice holiday gift for the both of you