Irish Heritage And Celiac's

[gfp]

I beg to differ, all my grandparents and great-grandparents on both my fathers and mothers side for 100% croatian, with maybe a little Hungarian contamination. I am not sure about what those haplotypes mean, but I am sure I have the 100% Croatian haplotype. I think celiac is a lot less common in Croatian and Eastern European populations because all we eat is bread. Bread for breakfast, lunch and dinner..... I am sure we developed so kind of a tolerance to gluten over the centuries. When I went to Germany I was shocked at the rye bread that they eat. For me it just tasted terrible, but I am sure you can get used to it after a while. There's very little rice or corn in the diets of Slavs (actually corn is considered pig food)

How can you be sure if you havn't checked.

Genetically, on the Y chromosome line, a majority (>87%) of Croats belong to one of the three major European Y-DNA haplogroups -- Haplogroup I (38%), Haplogroup R1a 35% and Haplogroup R1b 16%.

The R1a haplogroup that is usually at 40-60% levels in most Eastern European countries is at 35% within the Croat population.

link to paper mentioned earlier:

Open Original Shared Link

The largest group is haplogroup I, commonly understood to be decended from F.

This is found all over Europe but is higher in Scandanvian and Croatians.

However the idea of being 100% anything is ridiculous. Even if the croats maintain some cultural identity and had a distinct racial identity 12,000 or 1,200 years ago you are saying that non of your female ancestors EVER screwed around and got pregnant with a non Croat.

Statistically 1:25 kids today (with contraception) is not the offspring of the father named on the birth certificate.

Even taking 1:25 it seems improbable that you can guarantee your lineage back over 25 generations.

What you are saying is that not a single Ottoman, Turk or hungarian EVER donated genes to either of your family lines and this is assuming you can prove the last 25 generations were all BORN in Croatia, not a single immigrant.

Now the bread theory is completely seperate.

However

Epidemiology of coeliac disease in children in one Croatian county: the cumulative incidence over ten-year period and the way of clinical presentation (Part I).

Matek Z, Jungvirth-Hegedus M, Kolacek S.

Referral Center for Paediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition, Children's Hospital, Zagreb, Croatia.

Coeliac disease is a permanent intolerance to gluten, producing small-intestinal lesions. Its incidence in European countries varies from 1:400 to 1:2000, while there are no such epidemiological data for Croatia. Therefore, we investigated the incidence of coeliac disease for ten-year period in one well-defined region. Also, data concerning age at diagnosis and symptoms at the disease onset were collected. The cumulative incidence was 1.9:1000 life-births. The disease presented typically in more than 60% of cases. In 65% of patients, symptoms appeared during the first 2 years of life, while, when diagnosed, 45% were below 2 years. Also, it was shown that coeliac disease presented significantly later in children diagnosed during the last five years (p < 0.05). In conclusion, coeliac disease in Croatia is more frequent than previously suspected. It presents early, mostly with classical symptoms, although a tendency towards later ages of diagnosis was observed during the last few years.

Is seriously flawed.

Firstly these are figures for diagnosis NOT screening.

Nowhere in Europe has as low an incidence as 1:400 when random screening is used and in places with systematic screening this incidence is always between 1:200 and 1:400.

Corn is pretty much historically irrelevant. It is native to the Americas and has not played any major role in diet and was not introduced until late 15C and even then it took a long time for the human modified hybrid field maize to become popular and in most of Europe it was considered animal feed until WWI. It was considered animal food in France up to about 15 years ago and is still very rare.

I am not saying that reliance on bread is not a historical factor in weeding out celiacs but relaince on bread is common through most of post-Roman Europe until after the dark ages and in most places up to the 19C.

[bluejeangirl]

Most people here seem to be Irish/Swedish/German. I am 100% pure blooded Croatian .... are there any other Eastern Euros/Slavic people out there with celiac disease?

Yes I am. My dad's father came over to the states from Yugoslavia. He's the puzzle in my family tree though because he was killed when my dad was just three. He had a brother but I don't know anything about him. So I don't know what kind of diseases he had or would of had. My grandma would never talk about him because as far as I know it there was a gambling debt he got into and was shot to death.

Gail

[natalunia]

I am of German, Irish, Cajun (exiled from Nova Scotia), Native American (Alabama-Coushatta tribe) ancestry, with some really distant English and French ancestors many, many generations back.

[Queen Serenity]

Hi gfp,

Thanks for the lesson in genetics. But, I didn't start this thread by looking through a scientific point of view. It was strictly curiosity! I am very suprised by the amount of responses to this survey. We, as people on the planet Earth, have always been taught to verify ourselves through the ancestory of our past. I know, that if we could trace deep enough, that we would all come from the same race of people. Unfortuately, no one really cares about this. So, for now, we all just identify with what is passed down through the generations. As I said before, I am very impressed by the variety people inflicted with this special "gene". Please keep up the survey!

Vicki

11 years and still going!

[BeckyW]

I am also Irish and half Dutch.

[eKatherine]

I beg to differ, all my grandparents and great-grandparents on both my fathers and mothers side for 100% croatian, with maybe a little Hungarian contamination. I am not sure about what those haplotypes mean, but I am sure I have the 100% Croatian haplotype. I think celiac is a lot less common in Croatian and Eastern European populations because all we eat is bread. Bread for breakfast, lunch and dinner..... I am sure we developed so kind of a tolerance to gluten over the centuries. When I went to Germany I was shocked at the rye bread that they eat. For me it just tasted terrible, but I am sure you can get used to it after a while. There's very little rice or corn in the diets of Slavs (actually corn is considered pig food)

I am half Croatian, but the family has a Turkish family name.

I would beg to differ. A population only develops a tolerance by die-off of the less tolerant members, evolution being what it is.

[Guest Kathy Ann]

[Guest Kathy Ann]

[Kaycee]

Most people here seem to be Irish/Swedish/German. I am 100% pure blooded Croatian .... are there any other Eastern Euros/Slavic people out there with celiac disease?

Just found this part of the discussion. I am not 100% Croatian, but my maternal grandparents were from Korcula, presumably they were 100%, and found there way to New Zealand in the early 1900's. My father is from English descent, third generation, not too sure of Irish, but definately English.

Catherine

[olalisa]

I'm Scotch-Irish, English, and Apache Indian. Go figure.

[gfp]

Hi gfp,

Thanks for the lesson in genetics. But, I didn't start this thread by looking through a scientific point of view. It was strictly curiosity! I am very suprised by the amount of responses to this survey. We, as people on the planet Earth, have always been taught to verify ourselves through the ancestory of our past. I know, that if we could trace deep enough, that we would all come from the same race of people. Unfortuately, no one really cares about this. So, for now, we all just identify with what is passed down through the generations. As I said before, I am very impressed by the variety people inflicted with this special "gene". Please keep up the survey!

Vicki

11 years and still going!

Vicky,

However you meant the question it has taken on a life of its own and people are speculating as to where it "came from" thus adding another myth to celiac. When certain people, claiming to be MD's make statements about being 100% Croatian you can see this guy is either stirring up trouble or having a laugh with his medical buddies.... or perhaps he actually does beleive in racial purity ... after all so did Josef Mengele.

You might wish to see the real reason IM_resident came to this board.... which seems to be to disprove his mother and sister did not have celiac disease.

In the end discussions on racial purity all end up following the same path.... one I personally find very disturbing.

Open Original Shared Link

In Rwanda, the Hamitic hypothesis was a racialist hypothesis created by John Hanning Speke (Gourevitch 1999) which stated that the "Hamitic" Tutsi people were superior to the "Bantu" Hutus because they were more Caucasian in appearance, and thus destined to rule over the Hutus.

[BostonCeliac]

Hey I thought I'd throw in my "two cents".

On my mom's side I'm Irish/German/Swedish and on my Dad's side I'm Italian/Greek....My Gastro Doc had a lot to say about how he thinks this comes from the "Irish" in me, and it seems like a lot of people here think that too!

[Queen Serenity]

gfp,

I found your response interesting. I do agree with you that "racial purity" is a concept that is very sinister. That is just an idea that would breed hate. But, what does hold truth is that all humans share are a common set of genes. I also agree with you about the fact, that no one is anything but 100% human, and not 100% of anything else. As I said before, we only have what was passed on to us, and no one ever bothers to see the big picture. So everyone is guilty of relating themselves to a nation. What can you do? I guess it might take a few more generations before we get it! We may never find the answer to Celiac's, but at least with a trace in linegage, we can see where it lies the most. To everyone else, sorry this gets off topic, but I felt a need to answer gfp. This survey is huge! I have read every thread. Thank you!

Vicki

gluten-free for 11 years and still counting

[gfp]

gfp,

I found your response interesting. I do agree with you that "racial purity" is a concept that is very sinister. That is just an idea that would breed hate. But, what does hold truth is that all humans share are a common set of genes. I also agree with you about the fact, that no one is anything but 100% human, and not 100% of anything else. As I said before, we only have what was passed on to us, and no one ever bothers to see the big picture. So everyone is guilty of relating themselves to a nation. What can you do? I guess it might take a few more generations before we get it! We may never find the answer to Celiac's, but at least with a trace in linegage, we can see where it lies the most. To everyone else, sorry this gets off topic, but I felt a need to answer gfp. This survey is huge! I have read every thread. Thank you!

Vicki

gluten-free for 11 years and still counting

Vikki I just want to point to the danger in this .... BostonCeliac, sorry your is just the last post.... nothing personal against you.

.My Gastro Doc had a lot to say about how he thinks this comes from the "Irish" in me, and it seems like a lot of people here think that too!

Here is the real danger....

Irish/German/Swedish and on my Dad's side I'm Italian/Greek.

Well most Irish people have Viking blood ... most "germans" are gothic races who again have Swedish blood.

Italy was only invented this century anyway.... so Southern Italians have a lot of Viking (Norman) blood and greek blood .. indeed Naples spoke Greek until Napoleon. etc.

Northern Italians have Norman (viking) and Lombard (viking blood)

All of Europe carries Roman blood ....

So the danger is that the GI is looking for an Irish connection.... 1:133 in ITALY today have celiac disease ...by screening, 1:200 are diagnosed. (the incidence is exactly the same as the US through screening btw)

and the real point is noone knows what there heritage really is past a few generations....

I obviously have some nordic in me..... neither of my parents looks vaguely Nordic.... my aunt looks the most Jewish of us all and Im 1/8 Jewish but no one knows which Branch??? because my GG grandfather never said since it was pretty much irrelevant when he married a non Jew. If you lok carefully at my photo you might spot the nose!

[Mamato2boys]

My ethnic background is Irish, French Canadian, Scottish, and Welsh. My DH is Pennsylvania Dutch and Irish (I'm not sure what else). We just recently found out our oldest son is gluten sensitive and has two genes predisposing him of that - one from me, one from DH. I was VERY surprised to find out we each have at least one GS gene.

[BostonCeliac]

Vikki I just want to point to the danger in this .... BostonCeliac, sorry your is just the last post.... nothing personal against you.

Here is the real danger....

Irish/German/Swedish and on my Dad's side I'm Italian/Greek.

Well most Irish people have Viking blood ... most "germans" are gothic races who again have Swedish blood.

Italy was only invented this century anyway.... so Southern Italians have a lot of Viking (Norman) blood and greek blood .. indeed Naples spoke Greek until Napoleon. etc.

Northern Italians have Norman (viking) and Lombard (viking blood)

All of Europe carries Roman blood ....

So the danger is that the GI is looking for an Irish connection.... 1:133 in ITALY today have celiac disease ...by screening, 1:200 are diagnosed. (the incidence is exactly the same as the US through screening btw)

and the real point is noone knows what there heritage really is past a few generations....

I obviously have some nordic in me..... neither of my parents looks vaguely Nordic.... my aunt looks the most Jewish of us all and Im 1/8 Jewish but no one knows which Branch??? because my GG grandfather never said since it was pretty much irrelevant when he married a non Jew. If you lok carefully at my photo you might spot the nose!

No problem GFP-- I figured I'd get a post from you with my info quoted, but I wanted to put in my "information" for others who were curious.

The funny (if you want to call it that) thing about my doctor is that he talked more to me post-diagnosis about my Irish heritage than about the kinds of foods I should stay away from, the fact that I should be taking a vitamin to get my iron up, etc etc... I thought that was weird. To be honest, I don't care where this gene in me came from, I have it, and I plan on treating it.

Speaking of the "Italian" in me - my dad's family is sicilian, and we were recently looking into it and our last name is apparently Catalan, or more typically found from that region, it's interesting ... BUT I'm out of my league here with you, not enough research on my end to have an intelligent conversation... But your posts are extremely informative & interesting to read! thanks.

[Queen Serenity]

gfp,

I guess that there is only one simple solution for the "special gene". Instead of looking at this from a backround point of view, this is how we should look at it. We all should be assigned to a group called MUTT(Mixed Up Through Time)! Anyway, I always enjoy your posts, and I do understand what you are trying to say.

Vicki

gluten-free for 11 years and still counting!

[eKatherine]

Steve-

You're taking this all more seriously than we are. Everybody who lives in the US has such a mixed-up heritage (except, perhaps, for a few Native American tribes...) that nobody considers themselves to be pure anything, except maybe IMRresident, who does, after all, carry the Croation haploid.

[Kaycee]

Hey I thought I'd throw in my "two cents".

On my mom's side I'm Irish/German/Swedish and on my Dad's side I'm Italian/Greek....My Gastro Doc had a lot to say about how he thinks this comes from the "Irish" in me, and it seems like a lot of people here think that too!

Boston celiac, did you know that coeliac seems to be prolific in Italy. So you could have a double inheritance.

Catherine

[IMResident]

Vicky,

However you meant the question it has taken on a life of its own and people are speculating as to where it "came from" thus adding another myth to celiac. When certain people, claiming to be MD's make statements about being 100% Croatian you can see this guy is either stirring up trouble or having a laugh with his medical buddies.... or perhaps he actually does beleive in racial purity ... after all so did Josef Mengele.

You might wish to see the real reason IM_resident came to this board.... which seems to be to disprove his mother and sister did not have celiac disease.

In the end discussions on racial purity all end up following the same path.... one I personally find very disturbing.

Open Original Shared Link

GFP,

obviously I was kidding when I said that I am 100% croatian. I am sorry you found it disturbing. I however disagree with your opinion that most countries in Europe have a predominantly mixed heritage.

That would be the case in the US as most people have parents of 2 or more different ancestries.

[eKatherine]

GFP,

obviously I was kidding when I said that I am 100% croatian. I am sorry you found it disturbing. I however disagree with your opinion that most countries in Europe have a predominantly mixed heritage.

That would be the case in the US as most people have parents of 2 or more different ancestries.

I would beg to differ. A population only develops a tolerance by die-off of the less tolerant members, evolution being what it is.

Actually you can develop tolerance to a food or any antigen for that matter by ingesting it in large quantities.

If an antigen is ingested through the GI tract, continiously and in large quantities it produces a state called "immunological tolerance". In fact, ingestion of large quantites of pollen extracts have been used as a treatement for hay fever or inhalation of proinsulin antigens has been used to produce tolerance to the pancreas and prevent type I diabetes (with moderate success).

This type of immunological tolerance, called "oral tolerance" is controled by HLA genes. I am not quite sure about the genetics of the inheritance of HLA genes but I remember that these genes undergo "somatic mutation" during the life of a person and can be passed unto offsprings. Hence ingestion of large quantities of a certain type of food would be expected to produce tolerance to that food in the children of that individual.

Oral tolerance is one of the mechanism that breaks down in celiac disease.

Oh, my. You should read Lysenko, or perhaps you already have.

[IMResident]

Katherine,

here's an article on tolerance which can be induced by ingestion of an antigen (this one pertains to the treatment of Multiple Sclerosis):

Treatment of autoimmune disease by oral tolerance to autoantigens.

Whitacre CC, Gienapp IE, Meyer A, Cox KL, Javed N.

Department of Medical Microbiology and Immunology, Ohio State University College of Medicine, Columbus 43210, USA.

Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a chronic demyelinating disease of the human central nervous system (CNS) which can be characterized clinically by a remitting-relapsing or a chronic progressive course. There is a striking similarity between the clinical and histopathological features of MS and the experimentally induced disease, experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE). Induced by the injection of myelin basic protein (MBP) and adjuvants, EAE is characterized by clinical neurologic signs of paralysis and histopathologic changes consisting of perivascular mononuclear infiltration and demyelination. We have reported that the oral administration of MBP exerts a profoundly suppressive effect on EAE induced in the Lewis rat. This MBP-induced oral tolerance is characterized by an inhibition of EAE clinical neurologic signs, reduced CNS histopathologic changes, a profound decrease in the T-lymphocyte proliferative response specific for the fed antigen, and a decrease in serum antibody specific for MBP. In a chronic relapsing model of EAE in the B10.PL mouse, we have shown that the oral administration of MBP either prior to MBP challenge or on the first day of clinical signs results in a decreased number and severity of EAE relapses. The oral tolerance approach has also proven effective in the suppression of other organ-specific autoimmune diseases including collagen-induced arthritis, adjuvant arthritis, uveoretinitis, experimental myasthenia gravis, diabetes, and thyroiditis as well as graft rejection. Two primary mechanisms have been proposed to explain oral tolerance in EAE-active suppression following feeding of lower doses of antigen and clonal anergy or deletion following administration of higher doses. In vivo approaches in rats and transgenic mice have been used to further explore the mechanisms underlying oral tolerance. Administration of recombinant interleukin (IL)-2 was shown to reverse the tolerance induced by feeding low doses of MBP, but not the tolerance induced by feeding high doses of MBP, indicating that deletion had occurred in the high-dose group. Moreover, the oral administration of MBP to MBP-specific T-cell receptor (TCR) transgenic mice resulted in a profound decrease of the transgenic T cells in the blood, lymph node cells (LNC), mesenteric LNC, and spleen compartments. The proliferative response to MBP was also profoundly reduced in these organs, indicating that the cells had been deleted from these sites. The results achieved in animal models have led to clinical trials of oral tolerization in three human autoimmune diseases--MS, uveoretinitis, and rheumatoid arthritis--with promising results.

[eKatherine]

What you have shown here doesn't demonstrate the extra-evolutionary scenario you claim - that feeding more gluten to individuals results in the individuals becoming independently more gluten-tolerant and passing this on to their children. What we have observed is that many celiac babies and children would not survive to grow up and reproduce without a gluten-free diet, while adult celiacs often have increased infertility, and their genes are thus removed from the gene pool.

[heatherkj7]

I have also heard that is called "the irish disease". My father is from Norway.........but my Moms side is mostly Irish, my grandma, my mom, my two aunts, and my cousins....all have symptoms but refuse to get tested, or to try in a gluten free diet

[little flower]

My ancestors were Swiss, German, English, French, and whatever people are called from Luxembourg. Luxemburgers? Luxembourgians? They both sound funny. No Irish as far as I know. Too bad, I really liked Ireland and the people when I was there.

Lynn

Luxembourgeois?