Liver Cause Of Celiac Did Anyone See This Site?!

[happygirl]

"An interesting fact is that celiac disease has only been documented in Irish Setters - never been seen in other breeds."

2boys4me-I had heard that there were some animals that have had Celiac. Have these articles been published--I would love to read them! Thanks for sharing.

[merlin23]

It's a sure sign that an argument is deteriorating when you're criticizing the spelling, semantics, and grammar of another person in the discussion. I also didn't quote a paragraph from curezone, that was 2kids4me. I read the article that YOU YOURSELF provided, and discussed that. Sorry, I thought I was making an intelligent argument there.

It's incredibly easy for someone who has never experienced a disease to suggest a cure. Until you yourself experience the physical consequences of chronic diarrhea, you have no idea what you're dealing with. Same goes for celiac disease/gluten intolerance. Dehydration, mineral depletion, vitamin deficiency, weight loss, pain, lightheadedness, irritation, hemmerhoids, the list goes on. For someone with a reasonably normally functioning digestive system, diarrhea for a few days feels cleansing. For a celiac, taking laxative on top of the diarrhea that is already occuring is asking for a hospital visit. If I remember correctly, epsom salts are a pretty powerful laxative.

Celiac is no more curable than type 1 diabetes, cystic fibrosis, lupus, or multiple sclerosis. We're lucky in that we have a known cause for our illness and a way to treat it, without drugs.

My intense "cynicism" towards liver flushes is that they are dangerous, especially for a celiac. So is the thought that celiac disease can be cured with a flush of olive oil, epsom salts, and lemon juice. That is an opinion formed by research. When you give me a peer reviewed study on the safety and effectiveness of a liver cleanse, then maybe you'll be able to convince me otherwise. You say mainstream medicine only looks at treatments with drugs and surgeries? OK, explain the multiple studies in every reputable medical journey about the effectiveness of the gluten-free diet for celiacs, or diet for managing type 2 diabetes.

Well I just quoted what you said, can't see why it would be construed as offensive.

I understand that the diarhorea issue is a bit of a stumbling block. i havent found the epsom salts to be that powerful in my experience but then I have none of those problems. You could do without using the salts if you didn't eat anything for ages and were sure that the small intestine was clear of food. If that area is not clear you will throw up and feel like crap. However I know that many celiacs have used epsom salts and apparently without many problems. If you go to the toilet so many times a day then maybe a couple more wouldn't make such difference, especially considering the cleanse can be done once every two months.

From what I have gathered no one knows the cause of celiac, only what happens when you eat an offending food. I have been trying argue the cause which creates the conditons for celiac is a compromised liver, while others (doctors view) believe it's genetic and there is a fundamental flaw in the body's ability to deal with gluten. The only treatment is to remove the offending food group. It's another autoimmune disease which no one really has a clue about.

I don't get your last paragraph. Of course a non-gluten diet will be effective if you can't deal with gluten. I never disagreed with that point. Same with diabetes. When your liver is compromised those problems will remain. If you missed the point the idea of the flush is to remove stones from the liver, using the flush potions, to optimise liver performance and let it do it's job. Then you will improvements in regards to the celiac.

Show me a peer-reviewed study illustrating the safety and effectiveness of chemotherapy. Show me a peer reviewed study of the safety and effectivness of pharmeacutical drugs whose side effects kill 900,000 americans every year. On second thoughts, don't bother.

[CarlaB]

Someone like Carla, who is does not look at every comment with intense cynicism like many here, may benefit from this and it would be a shame if she was scare-mongered out of it by people who will find a cloud in everything.

I like to hear ideas about alternative ways to work toward health. It doesn't mean I do all of them. I think they all have an element of truth, but sometimes people put too much faith in them (not accusatory, just sounds that way in writing). I myself have done this. I've been sick for most of my life, not sick enough for anyone I don't live with to care, but sick enough for it to have been uncomfortable. So, as a result, I have a complete lack of faith in traditional medicine because I would be dead if I relied on them, not from celiac, but from other illnesses. So, I have looked for alternative ways to stay healthy.

The things I've found over the years have worked so well that once I even had a skeptical friend tell her daughter-in-law to call me because of her son's chronic ear infections. I told her what we did, she did it, then her son never had a problem with them again. Alternative cures can work.

Cleanses can be beneficial. There are many ways to cleanse, I've never heard of a liver cleanse. I think the most dangerous aspect for a sick celiac in any kind of cleanse would be releasing too many toxins too quickly. Plus, many of us cannot afford to have diarrhea for two days. The retracing that Merlin talked about is real ... I didn't believe it till it happened to me during a cleansing diet, not even a liver cleanse. I don't think someone in the sick stages of celiac could necessarily handle that. The cleanse I did was a candida cleanse, something else the medical community would laugh at.

If it worked (not to get rid of celiac, but to cleanse the liver), I could see that it would be a beneficial step when someone is almost healthy again. I'd have to read more about it. I do not believe it would cure celiac. Maybe it has helped some who have a leaky gut and have a reaction to gluten and other proteins because of it, but I cannot believe it would cure someone who has an autoimmune reaction and a genetic predisposition to it.

It could work to cleanse the liver, who knows until they try it? ... I certainly wouldn't trust the medical profession to use something free ... I think that's why so many of us were so sick for so long. At some point I could see trying it ... olive oil and lemon juice just doesn't sound that dangerous. It would be the diarrhea that would prevent me from doing it right now.

I think it's good to have an open mind, with reservations. I don't think we should get our hopes up every time someone claims a cure.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

. You say mainstream medicine only looks at treatments with drugs and surgeries? OK, explain the multiple studies in every reputable medical journey about the effectiveness of the gluten-free diet for celiacs, or diet for managing type 2 diabetes.

Actually, I said that. And, yes, we know about the effectiveness of the gluten-free diet for celiacs. The big problem is, most doctors don't know squat about celiac disease in the first place, let alone what might be dangerous (or safe, for that matter) for celiacs who have been plagued with years of diarrhea. Most doctors wouldn't recogninze a celiac if one bit him in the butt!

I'm glad Merlin posted this liver cleanse thing. Will I do it? Definitely not in the near future! Is he correct? Maybe, maybe not. Hopefully, most of us on this board are intelligent enough to question any and every treatment. Is this liver cleanse safer and/or than both the over-the-counter diarrhea meds and prescription IBS meds that most celiacs have been advised to take by DOCTORS? AHA--that's where we need some real research, and until there is any, I'm not going to try it. But I'mn ot going to write it off as snake oil either--not until I see proof either way.

[plantime]

When I had my gallbladder removed, I asked the doctor about the formation of stones. He said they were all either hardened cholesterol or calcium. He also said that they do not form in the liver, but have been known to form in the bile duct where it connects to the liver. Many times, when removing a gallbladder, stones have had to be removed from the bile duct. So the part about stones existing is true and provable by medical science. I also asked about liver and colon cleanses, and got a very informed response. Primarily that the main function of the liver and colon is to cleanse the body, and that they automatically cleanse themselves. We only have to spend a few days eating fresh, unprocessed foods to give the liver and colon time to take care of themselves. Herbal teas are beneficial, if you use the right herbs. Some can cause severe cramps and miscarriages, others are hard on the heart. Using cleanses for the liver is actually harmful to the liver, as they cause it to spasm and injure itself, or deplete itself in a rapid fashion. The olive oil does not enter the liver itself, especially if it only takes 20 minutes to start working. It is slicking the sides of the bile duct so the stones slide out easier. That is why the epsom salt is needed to relax the duct and give the stones moving room. If a person does have stones that are causing a problem, then medical help is needed. A stone too large will cause tears in the duct, no matter how slick and relaxed it is. Cleanses are dangerous and unnecessary. Just eat a proper diet of fresh and unprocessed foods, and your body will clease itself. It is programmed to work that way.

And, for what it's worth, the stones do show up on sonograms before they calcify or become huge. A good radioligist would be able to see 100-300 of them in the liver or bile duct.

[merlin23]

I like to hear ideas about alternative ways to work toward health. It doesn't mean I do all of them. I think they all have an element of truth, but sometimes people put too much faith in them (not accusatory, just sounds that way in writing). I myself have done this. I've been sick for most of my life, not sick enough for anyone I don't live with to care, but sick enough for it to have been uncomfortable. So, as a result, I have a complete lack of faith in traditional medicine because I would be dead if I relied on them, not from celiac, but from other illnesses. So, I have looked for alternative ways to stay healthy.

The things I've found over the years have worked so well that once I even had a skeptical friend tell her daughter-in-law to call me because of her son's chronic ear infections. I told her what we did, she did it, then her son never had a problem with them again. Alternative cures can work.

Cleanses can be beneficial. There are many ways to cleanse, I've never heard of a liver cleanse. I think the most dangerous aspect for a sick celiac in any kind of cleanse would be releasing too many toxins too quickly. Plus, many of us cannot afford to have diarrhea for two days. The retracing that Merlin talked about is real ... I didn't believe it till it happened to me during a cleansing diet, not even a liver cleanse. I don't think someone in the sick stages of celiac could necessarily handle that. The cleanse I did was a candida cleanse, something else the medical community would laugh at.

If it worked (not to get rid of celiac, but to cleanse the liver), I could see that it would be a beneficial step when someone is almost healthy again. I'd have to read more about it. I do not believe it would cure celiac. Maybe it has helped some who have a leaky gut and have a reaction to gluten and other proteins because of it, but I cannot believe it would cure someone who has an autoimmune reaction and a genetic predisposition to it.

It could work to cleanse the liver, who knows until they try it? ... I certainly wouldn't trust the medical profession to use something free ... I think that's why so many of us were so sick for so long. At some point I could see trying it ... olive oil and lemon juice just doesn't sound that dangerous. It would be the diarrhea that would prevent me from doing it right now.

I think it's good to have an open mind, with reservations. I don't think we should get our hopes up every time someone claims a cure.

I did a candida cleanse too. I was diagnosed with yeast overgrowth and ironically enough was told I had gluten intolerance by an allergist, even though the jury is out on that one. A candida cleanse is worse thing you can do, especially when your eliminative organs are compromised, as the toxins released when killing the candida swamps your body. Taking yeast-killers is unnecessary and too aggressive.

Good bile flow has a profound effect from my experience. I suffered from extreme fatigue and the cleanses brought about a dramatic improvement. Fatigue is another funny topic in mainstream medicine. I went to the doctor, and after kidney tests and blood tests turned out normal, he had nothing else to turn to. He genuinely believe there was something wrong with me but after all his training and education he was totally unable to offer me any advice. It turned about to be quite comical with me blabbering on about my theories (which were allergy-orientated) and him just sitting there nodding his head. I came to the conclusion soon after that, aside from getting diagnostic tests done, going to a doctor is a complete waste of time. Most of them literally know nothing, apart from matching your symptoms up with a possible drug.

About the liver cleanse, it's fully understandable you would be apprehensive, but I can assure you there is more chance of being struck by lightning than having complications. Afterwards you would be thinking what was the big deal. A few here would make you think you were pouring sulphuric acid down your throat, rather than a bit of olive oil and lemon juice.

[penguin]

Let me get one thing straight - I am not anti-alternative medicine. I've had the medical community fail me many times and I was brought up to use homeopathic methods first, and go to drs and take meds only when absolutely necessary. As an example, I have had saline in more cavities more times than I wish to recount.

Well known alternative medicine doctors don't even back this up. A great example is Dr. Weil. Open Original Shared Link

I haven't found a doctor, homeopathic or otherwise, in my research that reccomends it unless they have a vested interest in it through books, etc.

It also goes against plain old common sense for someone with a dysfunctional digestive tract and immune system to purposefully put themselves through something like a cleanse. For a normal, healthy person, sure, do what you want and see if it works. If I were healthy, I might do it. I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people that are sick and grasping for anything to do something that would probably make them sicker.

[TriticusToxicum]

Let me get one thing straight - I am not anti-alternative medicine. I've had the medical community fail me many times and I was brought up to use homeopathic methods first, and go to drs and take meds only when absolutely necessary. As an example, I have had saline in more cavities more times than I wish to recount.

Well known alternative medicine doctors don't even back this up. A great example is Dr. Weil. Open Original Shared Link

I haven't found a doctor, homeopathic or otherwise, in my research that reccomends it unless they have a vested interest in it through books, etc.

It also goes against plain old common sense for someone with a dysfunctional digestive tract and immune system to purposefully put themselves through something like a cleanse. For a normal, healthy person, sure, do what you want and see if it works. If I were healthy, I might do it. I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people that are sick and grasping for anything to do something that would probably make them sicker.

It also goes against plain old common sense for someone with a dysfunctional digestive tract and immune system to purposefully put themselves through something like a cleanse. For a normal, healthy person, sure, do what you want and see if it works. If I were healthy, I might do it. I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people that are sick and grasping for anything to do something that would probably make them sicker.

Well said -BRAVO!

[CarlaB]

I did a candida cleanse too. I was diagnosed with yeast overgrowth and ironically enough was told I had gluten intolerance by an allergist, even though the jury is out on that one. A candida cleanse is worse thing you can do, especially when your eliminative organs are compromised, as the toxins released when killing the candida swamps your body. Taking yeast-killers is unnecessary and too aggressive.

The candida cleanse I did was all dietary. I did not take yeast killers, unless you count probiotics. I just didn't feed them (carbs). I ate meat, veggies, eggs, fish, etc. Basically it was an Atkins style diet with unlimited veggies. I gained 10 pounds, which was interesting, and understandeable now that I know about the gluten problem.

[merlin23]

Let me get one thing straight - I am not anti-alternative medicine. I've had the medical community fail me many times and I was brought up to use homeopathic methods first, and go to drs and take meds only when absolutely necessary. As an example, I have had saline in more cavities more times than I wish to recount.

Well known alternative medicine doctors don't even back this up. A great example is Dr. Weil. Open Original Shared Link

I haven't found a doctor, homeopathic or otherwise, in my research that reccomends it unless they have a vested interest in it through books, etc.

It also goes against plain old common sense for someone with a dysfunctional digestive tract and immune system to purposefully put themselves through something like a cleanse. For a normal, healthy person, sure, do what you want and see if it works. If I were healthy, I might do it. I just don't think it's a good idea to tell people that are sick and grasping for anything to do something that would probably make them sicker.

It makes little difference to me whether an alternative or conventional person is criticising the effectiveness of a flush. The mainstream has labelled everything contradicting medicine as alternative, and that's their perogative. They think it's one big hippy happy family, when in fact there are many alternative people who disagree with eachother. I personally think most alternative things are rubbish as there is no sense behind them, like the cayenne pepper cure.

I've come across Dr Weil before, he is a guy who is giving his opinion without any real foundation. It's all "I don't believe this or I don't believe that." He doesn't actually counter-act any of this with a theory of his own,(he doesn't even mention bile) he gives his own opinion and that's it. He is a great believer of the oil etc creating stones which I have already said is total rubbish. He is just a nothing voice who hasn't ever done a flush before or had symptoms that he can see correlate with the flushes in terms of improvement. A products he promote ,Milk Thistle, worked well for me at the start(really well actually) but after I drank alcohol one night it stopped having an effect, probably because my liver was totally screwed at that point.

As for your last point, I have no idea how desperate people are, in fact I have encountered the opposite- everyone seems quite happy with their lot and seem to treat new methods of treatment with complete disdain. Aside from the diarrhea issue, I can't see this big tragedy you think will happen with the flush. It's just scare-mongering speculation. It's like refusing to leave your home because you might get knocked over by a car. Anyway, do what you think is right. I got to the point where I was willing to try anything to sort myself out so I can see the dilemma if your not that desperate either way.

The candida cleanse I did was all dietary. I did not take yeast killers, unless you count probiotics. I just didn't feed them (carbs). I ate meat, veggies, eggs, fish, etc. Basically it was an Atkins style diet with unlimited veggies. I gained 10 pounds, which was interesting, and understandeable not that I know about the gluten problem.

Alright, cool. Yep the old atkins diet, better not get me started on that one ;^)

[penguin]

As for your last point, I have no idea how desperate people are, in fact I have encountered the opposite- everyone seems quite happy with their lot and seem to treat new methods of treatment with complete disdain. Aside from the diarrhea issue, I can't see this big tragedy you think will happen with the flush. It's just scare-mongering speculation. It's like refusing to leave your home because you might get knocked over by a car.

I'll say this and then I'm done -

I think I can safely say that most people on here have tried damn near everything to feel better.

Celiac Disease takes an average of 11 years to diagnose. That's 11 years of deterioration and suffering due to a lack of knowledge from the medical community. Most of that stems from the fact that up until a few years ago, dr's were taught that celiac disease was very rare and they weren't likley to ever see one. We now know the number is 1 in 133, meaning most dr's see them, but there's a learning curve. I'm not making excuses for dr's, huge numbers are "medical dieties" and totally clueless.

As a group, we keep a very close watch on new developments in treatment, but we've got very sensitive quack detectors too. I don't think disdain is the word I'd use. More like skepticism. We know how the disease works better than our doctors do and what works to treat it at this moment in time. We're happy with our current treatment because it works.

And the diarrhea is the big tragedy. For someone with chronic diarrhea, as in years of it, usually daily, more diarrhea on purpose can be very VERY damaging. Doing a liver cleanse under those conditions isn't like not leaving the house for fear of being hit by a car. It's more like being hit by a car and then playing in traffic. It's asking for trouble.

I'm off my soapbox now.

[CarlaB]

Alright, cool. Yep the old atkins diet, better not get me started on that one ;^)

I was cutting out starchy carbs and sugars to starve off the yeast, it was just interesting that others were eating in a similar fashion and losing weight while I was gaining. I did not do the Atkins diet, I just used some of the recipes since they avoided the same things I was. It worked for the candida.

[2kids4me]

Merlin, I copied and pasted the disclaimer from curezone because I found the site to contain contradictory statements. One one hand they say how safe and effective the treatments are and another says it could kill you.

I mistrust anyone (mainstream doctor or alternative medicine practitioner) who makes blanket statements about treatments with no studies in place. Lots of alternative methods have done studies on the effectiveness of treatment (acupuncture is one).

You have made statements about mainstream medicine ignoring the liver - yet I found numerous articles and you even posted a site for one - about liver stones. For anyone searching - mainstream medicine calls them INTRAHEPATIC STONES.There are articles back to 1906. If mainstream medicine is so ignorant how come those are the only peer reviewed articles I could find?. How come there are shelves of medical texts dedicated to the liver?

One must always be their own advocate in todays' medicine - doctors are so specialized that you cant expect the GP to know much about autoimmune disease, the GI doc wont know gynecology and the endocrinologist wont know much about treating a complex fracture.

Then you have the internet - there are valuable resources on the net, there are also dangerous sites that are quackery.

Merlin - the feedback you have received is from aptients with celiac, many have children with it and a range of other diseases and/or complications from autoimmune disease. I have found that the majority of posters are VERY well informed, have done their own research in mainstream and alternative methods, and have personal success that they share. They post advice by saying this is what worked for me, its worth checking out.........but they dont preach it.

Your posts have been defensive and pushing liver flushes while condemning mainstream medicine as a whole. I have had bad experiences with mainstream medicine and great ones too. I dont condemn the entire profession because of individuals.

You posted your info, some asked questions, others criticized the nature of the flush. So be it.

You last post

>>As for your last point, I have no idea how desperate people are, in fact I have encountered the opposite- everyone seems quite happy with their lot and seem to treat new methods of treatment with complete disdain. Aside from the diarrhea issue, I can't see this big tragedy you think will happen with the flush. It's just scare-mongering speculation. It's like refusing to leave your home because you might get knocked over by a car. Anyway, do what you think is right. I got to the point where I was willing to try anything to sort myself out so I can see the dilemma if your not that desperate either way.<<

Has more than a hint of sarcasm, it's like gosh, well your not desperate enough to try something that may help you". and everyone seems quite happy with their lot. yeah I'm real happy my kids' immune systems have turned on them and I'm sure everyone here is thrilled to have celiac.

Aside from the diarrhea issue, the big tragedy is that some may end up in hospital by doing the liver flush. Many celiacs have permanent damage to their guts or concurrent illness that makes this flush unsafe. So far anyone making that known to you has been dismissed by you.

[2kids4me]

Tio reply to Laura's post form way back. These are some sites about celiac and Irish setters. My personal belief is that it is in a lot of breeds, not just the setter.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

[merlin23]

Well, I have been condesending but that is because of the attitude of some of the board members. Ever since I mentioned the flush there has mostly been accusations of vested interests, and in general constant attempts to pick holes in my argument, attempts which I have addressed. That has been the reason for my condescending tone, most people here aren't really interested in the liver flush, they just want to gazump the liver theory.

Instead of being obsessed by peer studies or whatever, I would rather listen to people who have experienced relief from their myriad of symptoms and hear their story. If someone has excema and liver flushes clear it up then what sort of experiment do you need for that? People always dismiss these as anecodotal but I'm not buying that. There are only a limited amount of people, like Andreas Moritz, who can write a book about liver cleanse and loads of stuff. He has a vested interest to sell books, but then he has to earn a living as well. It's hardly a crime selling a book which gives people access to health tips.

The following link is a website about a man who has created a blog of sorts detailing his recovery from chronic eczema by liver flushing and addressing his diet. While this is not celiac related it illustrates the powers of a liver flush regarding auto-immune diseases. Eczema is another ailment which can be chronic from a very young age. This guy has a book out soon by the way...... only joking!

Open Original Shared Link

[MySuicidalTurtle]

I know people are getting frustrated by things being said in this thread. If you are it would probably be best just to ignore this thread and let those who find liver clensing helpful discuss it. I personally try not to listen to doctors who know little about our disease, so, I am not going to listen to a poster who knows just the same.

[skbird]

I just wanted to make a couple of comments.

First, about the "myth" of liver stones (or the oil and lemon juice making stones) - they have lab tested these stones people eliminate and they are usually about 99% cholesterol. Since olive oil and lemon juice are not 99% cholesterol, this is proof they are not the result of an interior chemical reaction. The first two flushes I did I had no stones at all. The second I had about 10, the third I had about 50. But like I said before, I also had a reaction to this strong release of toxins in my body and will not be doing any more of them.

Also, not all gluten-intolerant/Celiacs have diarrhea, so in an oddly refreshing sort of way, this was a nice side effect for me.

Oh, and I talked with my doctor about this, also a nurse practitioner who I was seeing occasionally at the walk-in clinic, and both had heard of doing this to eliminate stones. In fact, one pointed to the fact that people who have had their gallbladders removed could still pass stones, indicating that they were coming from the liver, not gallbladder. It was basically some open-minded anecdotal conversation.

There are many online testimonials to people keeping their gallbladders (with gallbladder disease) who have done sufficient flushing and healed themselves in this method.

Here's another site about this process, with pictures, for anyone interested: Open Original Shared Link

Stephanie

[eKatherine]

I finally read this thread after avoiding it for days, and all I can say is that I am totally amazed.

The cathartic purge of olden days is with us and going strong, but in the guise of "alternative" medicine. If it feels really bad, it must be ridding your body of a whole lot of toxins, and therefore it will cure many diseases that medicine has failed to cure.

At around 10.30 you take the Olive Oil/Lemon juice and then lie down still for 20 minutes. Most of the action happens during this twenty minutes so after around 40 minutes you can either stay in bed or get up and do whatever(apart from eat or strenous activites, because the liver is doing it's stuff)

It would also be a shame for someone who does not know they have gallbladder problems to do this. It would send them into a full blown gallbladder attack.

So, in twenty minutes between 40-300 semi-solid stones are created by oil and lemon juice, and salt? yeah whatever. You lay still so you can allow the liver to release stones and you can get nauseous if you carry on moving around.

What about the violent diarrhea? Do I stay in bed for that, too? One tablespoon of olive oil will give me violent diarrhea within half an hour. I'd hate to think what would happen if I took 4 ounces with a dose of epsom salts.

In regards to scientific studies, it's impossible unless a person actually carries out some sort of experiment themself. If for instance you did liver flushes and they worked you wouldn't feel the need to have an experiment- the proof would be in the pudding. Mainstream medicine are never going to carry out such tests due to their indifference of such methods and the people who know the effectivness of a liver flush will not find the need for them so will really not care either way. They will be content to the tell people on boards like this and leave it at that.

My personal experience, highly predictable, would indicate you are wrong, and I will have a very different reaction from what you say I should. Is it therefore my word against yours to settle this once and for all for humankind?

Actually, the personal experience you cite is the exact opposite of a scientific study. A scientific study would test hundreds of volunteers in order to find out how well the procedure works for them, the benefits and the side effects, and these would only become apparent when compared with an equivalent group which did not undergo this procedure.

No one person can ever know what would have happened to them if they had done things differently. That's why reliable studies rely on hard data, analysis, and large numbers of participants.

[merlin23]

I finally read this thread after avoiding it for days, and all I can say is that I am totally amazed.

The cathartic purge of olden days is with us and going strong, but in the guise of "alternative" medicine. If it feels really bad, it must be ridding your body of a whole lot of toxins, and therefore it will cure many diseases that medicine has failed to cure.

What about the violent diarrhea? Do I stay in bed for that, too? One tablespoon of olive oil will give me violent diarrhea within half an hour. I'd hate to think what would happen if I took 4 ounces with a dose of epsom salts.

My personal experience, highly predictable, would indicate you are wrong, and I will have a very different reaction from what you say I should. Is it therefore my word against yours to settle this once and for all for humankind?

Actually, the personal experience you cite is the exact opposite of a scientific study. A scientific study would test hundreds of volunteers in order to find out how well the procedure works for them, the benefits and the side effects, and these would only become apparent when compared with an equivalent group which did not undergo this procedure.

No one person can ever know what would have happened to them if they had done things differently. That's why reliable studies rely on hard data, analysis, and large numbers of participants.

"What about the violent diarrhea? Do I stay in bed for that, too? One tablespoon of olive oil will give me violent diarrhea within half an hour. I'd hate to think what would happen if I took 4 ounces with a dose of epsom salts. "

Like many others before you, it would help matters a great deal if you read the whole comment before responding. I said in the passage, directed to Carla, that she should expect to see the stones late morning to early afternoon the next day. Most of the stones are released from the liver during the twenty minutes you lie still, they don't necessarily bypass everything in your intestines and fly out of your backside within 20 minutes. That process takes about on average ten hours. You take the ingredients at 10.30 and release the stones the next morning or early afternoon. I don't mean to be disrespectful but you leave yourself wide open when you try and put words in my mouth.

[eKatherine]

I guess you didn't bother to read what I said and think it's disrespectful of me to have experiences that would contradict your predictions. I have read the whole thread. This would make me seriously ill. I would have hours of violent and disgusting diarrhea. That wouldn't bother you, apparently. It would bother me, and I need to look out for myself when there are people who in no way have my best interests at heart.

This removal of "liver stones" by flush is nonsense. The evidence is that hardly anybody has liver stones, and even if they do, there is no mechanism for them being removed by this process. The quantity of debris passed in a procedure like this is not a sign that cleansing has taken place, but that it was generated by the process. It would not have existed if the participant had not consumed those things.

The absence of any evidence of testing of this procedure is not evidence that it is either safe or effective. Your pushing this procedure can cause someone serious damage to their health.

[merlin23]

I guess you didn't bother to read what I said and think it's disrespectful of me to have experiences that would contradict your predictions. I have read the whole thread. This would make me seriously ill. I would have hours of violent and disgusting diarrhea. That wouldn't bother you, apparently. It would bother me, and I need to look out for myself when there are people who in no way have my best interests at heart.

This removal of "liver stones" by flush is nonsense. The evidence is that hardly anybody has liver stones, and even if they do, there is no mechanism for them being removed by this process. The quantity of debris passed in a procedure like this is not a sign that cleansing has taken place, but that it was generated by the process. It would not have existed if the participant had not consumed those things.

The absence of any evidence of testing of this procedure is not evidence that it is either safe or effective. Your pushing this procedure can cause someone serious damage to their health.

"that it was generated by the process. It would not have existed if the participant had not consumed those things"

Your spot on, the stone removal from the liver is generated by the process(liver contraction), and the passing of these stones would not have existed if you hadn't of consumed the oil etc. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

[Guest BERNESES]

This thread has been interesting to read... I think that merlin, you should realize that most of us here on the board have been VERY VERY sick- some near death either due to celiac's or related complications. Some of us will never be able to undo the damage that has been done by gluten to our bodies. There are people in wheelchairs, with permanent brain damage, because ofgluten. I think you are going to find a LOT of skepticism for any type of a cure here because most of us have tried everything under the sun.

I think "alternative" medicine has a lot to offer us but that people shouldn't be doing cleanses without a full physical by an MD and a naturopath to guide them.

Also, the epsom salts can be VERY dangerous. I just read a story in a book on bizarre medical tragedies where a 20 year old man died of heart failure. They couldn't figure out what had happened. Turned out he had been gargling with epsom salts 3-4 times a day for about 3 months- he wsn't drinking the stuff but enough was ingested that the increased magnesium poisoned him. Lemon juice and olive oil seem pretty neutral, but epsom salts would kill me.

[plantime]

Oh, please, Merlin, quote the whole sentence! You left out the part about the debris being flushed out (of the bile duct, not the liver) does not mean the liver has been cleansed. None of what you are saying means the liver has been cleansed, it only means the bile duct is being emptied. There is a big difference. I would also like to point out that had I done this "treatment" when I still had my gallbladder, it would have ruptured, and I would be dead. The same for my daughter, whose gallbladder was removed a month ago. A doctor's exam is needed BEFOREdoing this kind of a "treatment." This is just not safe for anyone to do just on the sayso of someone on a message board, or unvalidated websites. It needs real lab testing to prove that it works, and you have none. You have no provable evidence. Using this "treatment" on a celiac does not produce the healing you are claiming. It would be very easy to prove how it would hurt, though. Just causing the diarrhea in any person causes damage. Obviously you do not suffer from celiac, so you do not know what it is like. You do not know how anemic and dehydrated we get just from one round of diarrhea. What's more, you really don't care. You just want us to say that your treatment works, and that we will all do it. Nope, not happening. Present us with real evidence, not anecdotal, that this "treatment" works.

[eKatherine]

"that it was generated by the process. It would not have existed if the participant had not consumed those things"

Your spot on, the stone removal from the liver is generated by the process(liver contraction), and the passing of these stones would not have existed if you hadn't of consumed the oil etc. Thanks for reinforcing my point.

Exactly the opposite of what I said. Thre is no liver contraction. If there was, it would be a serious issue, one to be avoided at all costs, as the liver has no muscles.

Since most people don't have any liver stones at all, yet everybody produces massive amounts of junk on this purge, there's a different source. They are formed from the materials you have consumed. Epsom salts form insoluble precipitates in the presence of normal body chemicals.

Just as for the "coconut oil fast" I read about, where you would be passing giant chunks of fungus...err...those chunks of fungus wouldnt' have been growing in your intestines if you had been eating a normal diet and having regular bowel movements.

[CarlaB]

Exactly the opposite of what I said. Thre is no liver contraction. If there was, it would be a serious issue, one to be avoided at all costs, as the liver has no muscles.

Since most people don't have any liver stones at all, yet everybody produces massive amounts of junk on this purge, there's a different source. They are formed from the materials you have consumed. Epsom salts form insoluble precipitates in the presence of normal body chemicals.

Just as for the "coconut oil fast" I read about, where you would be passing giant chunks of fungus...err...those chunks of fungus wouldnt' have been growing in your intestines if you had been eating a normal diet and having regular bowel movements.

The twist on your words were evident. Merlin's answer was very sarcastic. I appreciate good discussion, but when it gets reduced to defensiveness and sarcasm, it stops being productive.

Berneses had some very good points, too.

It seems that if we just give our bodies a break by staying away from things that hurt us and eating things and even drinking cleansing teas that help the body heal, it's our safest path. Our bodies are designed to heal themselves when we are not overloading them with toxins. I mean, if we cut our hand, we don't have to think about how the wound will heal ... so if take the toxic load off our bodies by avoiding the garbage we tend to feed them, we should heal to the point we are able. Someone made an excellent point about our livers and all other organs being designed to clean themselves ... it's our modern diet that is hurting them!