Vegetarianism

[bluejeangirl]

There has been such an improvement in my health since I went gluten free and I am thankful for all the support in boards like this one and there is so much information in books and articles I don't think you can read them all. I'm always trying to perfect my eating habits however. I know I can feel better then I do.

My energy level is still low and don't sleep the best are my two main concerns.

I've been following a low carb diet for the past two months. I don't like how I feel on it. I think my carbs were too low. This week I woke up twice at 2:00 in the morning wide awake with what I know are the symtoms of low blood sugar. I get up have a lara bar or something and I'll feel better.

Anyway I want to try something else. Plus I could stand to gain about 10 lbs. I'm thinking about going vegetarian. I don't know to much about it though and I was wondering who follows this diet here and if they could give me tips. What do I watch for? What are some good cook books? Any advice would be so helpful.

Thanks, Gail

[Ursa Major]

Gail, I don't see how going from one extreme to another would be helpful. The problem with people thinking EVERYBODY should follow a low carb (or vegetarian) diet is, that too many people are still stuck in this 'one diet is right for everybody' thinking. Obviously, the high protein diet is wrong for you.

I own a book called 'the metabolic typing diet', which makes it very clear that everybody is different, and there are generally three types of people. The protein type (which I am an extreme example of), the carbohydrate type, and the mixed type.

The protein type does very poorly on a high carb diet, and responds to that with low energy, weight gain and illness (that's me, I can't tolerate any starches at all). The carbohydrate type is the opposite way. Now, with the carbohydrate diet they don't necessarily mean to eat a lot of grains and starches, but rather a lot of vegetables (vegetables contain all the starch needed) and very little meat. One of my daughters is like that, and is very healthy on this type of diet.

The mixed type needs to eat what most people would consider more balanced (the ones who believe in a 'one diet fits all' think this is the way everybody should eat, for the most part).

The reason why most diets don't work for many people, but are claimed to be great is, that SOME people will feel great on it, but many won't, just because their bodies can't handle it.

The protein type should eat about 70% meat and fat and 30% carbs (in the form of veggies) for every meal. That works for me and keeps me as well as I am able to be right now. The carbohydrate type should eat the opposite, 70% carbs and no more than 30% meat and fat to be healthy.

All that said, you probably are a carbohydrate type. So, why not try eating some meat or fish three times a week, or eat eggs instead of meat much of the time to get the protein (and vitamins A and B12) you need, and eat a lot of vegetables, maybe some starches and fruit?

[bluejeangirl]

Gail, I don't see how going from one extreme to another would be helpful. The problem with people thinking EVERYBODY should follow a low carb (or vegetarian) diet is, that too many people are still stuck in this 'one diet is right for everybody' thinking. Obviously, the high protein diet is wrong for you.

I own a book called 'the metabolic typing diet', which makes it very clear that everybody is different, and there are generally three types of people. The protein type (which I am an extreme example of), the carbohydrate type, and the mixed type.

The protein type does very poorly on a high carb diet, and responds to that with low energy, weight gain and illness (that's me, I can't tolerate any starches at all). The carbohydrate type is the opposite way. Now, with the carbohydrate diet they don't necessarily mean to eat a lot of grains and starches, but rather a lot of vegetables (vegetables contain all the starch needed) and very little meat. One of my daughters is like that, and is very healthy on this type of diet.

The mixed type needs to eat what most people would consider more balanced (the ones who believe in a 'one diet fits all' think this is the way everybody should eat, for the most part).

The reason why most diets don't work for many people, but are claimed to be great is, that SOME people will feel great on it, but many won't, just because their bodies can't handle it.

The protein type should eat about 70% meat and fat and 30% carbs (in the form of veggies) for every meal. That works for me and keeps me as well as I am able to be right now. The carbohydrate type should eat the opposite, 70% carbs and no more than 30% meat and fat to be healthy.

All that said, you probably are a carbohydrate type. So, why not try eating some meat or fish three times a week, or eat eggs instead of meat much of the time to get the protein (and vitamins A and B12) you need, and eat a lot of vegetables, maybe some starches and fruit?

Thanks Usala, you have alot of wisdom. I do tend to go in extremes. I know I wouldn't do well with a high carb diet either because I'm hypo-glycemic. So any simple carbs would be out.

Now with summer in full swing and the farmers market starting it would be nice to learn how to coook some vergetarian dishes. All I know is what I doing now isn't working. But I was mostly doing salads and meats, and too many non starchy vegetables. More paleolithic.

I'll have to find my balance. That book sounds interesting.

Gail

[shai76]

I see going vegetarian as an ethical decision, not something to take lightly as a diet change. Low carb is just not a wise diet decision either. Carbs are important for our bodies to function. If you want to be healthy just include a lot of raw veggies and fruits in your diet,a nd make sure you get enough calories for your type.

[AndreaB]

I second everything that Ursula said. I just recently learned about the metabolic type diet and it is the first one that has made sense. I am a former vegan who was a former ovo-vegetarian who was a former lacto-ovo vegetartian who was a former eat everything.

The problem I had with the vegan diet is the reliance on soy or gluten to provide more variety instead of beans all the time. My family made the mistake of eating a lot of gluten and soy. I made my own gluten, baked goods, bread grinding my own flour from wheat kernels. I also went through a time of making my own tofu.

With my vegetarian (both lacto-ovo and ovo) we probably ate more balanced because of having more food choices. If you are allergic or intolerant to eggs or dairy than this diet isn't for you. Also if you are allergic or intolerant to soy as well as gluten then the vegan diet is much more difficult unless you do very well with beans. Between my husband and I we don't do well with some beans. We have gone back to a meat eating diet to make up for the allergies in other areas. We need to learn to eat more fruit and veggies too...it has just seemed less expensive to eat the grain/starches. I know, they (the food industry) probably designed it that way.

[rinne]

I am a former vegan who was a former ovo-vegetarian who was a former lacto-ovo vegetartian who was a former eat everything.

I like your flexibility and your humor Andrea.

Through much of my twenties I was a vegetarian and consumed a fair bit of soy, given that I now have cysts which are related to estrogen gone wild and soy is high in estrogens I question that decision.

I don't know much about the metabolic diet but I am planning on correcting that. I have been following the blood type diet and that seems to be working. Mostly though I am working on trusting what it is that I want to eat, within the realm of what I know will make me feel good, and if I want to eat it for three days in a row I will and then I seem to lose interest in it and I crave something else. Last week I ate a lot of fish, this week I bought red meat.

I keep coming back to trust your gut.

[bluejeangirl]

I second everything that Ursula said. I just recently learned about the metabolic type diet and it is the first one that has made sense. I am a former vegan who was a former ovo-vegetarian who was a former lacto-ovo vegetartian who was a former eat everything.

The problem I had with the vegan diet is the reliance on soy or gluten to provide more variety instead of beans all the time. My family made the mistake of eating a lot of gluten and soy. I made my own gluten, baked goods, bread grinding my own flour from wheat kernels. I also went through a time of making my own tofu.

With my vegetarian (both lacto-ovo and ovo) we probably ate more balanced because of having more food choices. If you are allergic or intolerant to eggs or dairy than this diet isn't for you. Also if you are allergic or intolerant to soy as wBell as gluten then the vegan diet is much more difficult unless you do very well with beans. Between my husband and I we don't do well with some beans. We have gone back to a meat eating diet to make up for the allergies in other areas. We need to learn to eat more fruit and veggies too...it has just seemed less expensive to eat the grain/starches. I know, they (the food industry) probably designed it that way.

Andrea and rinne,

I don't do well with soy at all and I did listen to a program on our public radio on how soy is bad for you. So I'm well aware. Now I'm thinking if I ate beans to fill in the void I'd blow up like a thanksgiving day balloon.

I'm sure I was just frustrated this morning because of the lack of sleep and the craving for more carbs was at an all time high.

I already feel better having buttered corn on the cob and potato salad with my bbq brat tonight. I'm happy again.

Thanks for the great replies,

gail

[MySuicidalTurtle]

I am a vegetarian and don't see how it would allow you to gain more weight. It's cutting out lots and if you aren't doing it for ethical reasons then I guess I don't know how it would be helpful.

[Melzo]

I believe that most, if not all diets that eliminate a certain type of food - whether protein, carb, or otherwise is harmful and useless unless you have a good reason (i.e. celiac disease). Reason being, you are eliminating a type of food that your body finds essential, and when you start to reintroduce these foods, you gain the weight back or go back to the way you were before you started the diet. It turns into a vicious cycle that you will never benefit from. Many foods, like carbs and protein help the body to function properly so that you have the energy and the metabolism in order to lose weight or gain weight.

The problem with America, and my husband and I were talking about this today actually, is that our PORTIONS are screwed up. Moderation of any type of food is essential to lose, gain, or maintain weight. If you are underweight, you eat ALL essential food types in a moderation that steadily increases your weight. Vice versa with overweight issues. You would decrease the amount of food you would eat. Most people find this incredibly difficult and have NO idea what one serving is. If you look back to the times when our parents or grandparents grew up, you can understand where I am coming from. They did not have close to the obesity problem we have now. Fast food places and restaurants do not help matters either. You walk into any restaurant, and you will receive 4 to 5 times the amount of food you should be eating. But we eat it anyways. I too am guilty of this.

My recommendation to anyone would be to find a good nutritionist (my best friend is one) and they will be able to tell you what type of foods to eat that cover the major food groups and that are healthy for you. Obviously if you are eating candy bars or cookies (but in moderation) - that just doesn't work either. Because we have to eliminate gluten, and some of us other types of food, the nutritionist will be able to tell you what you can eat in place of these items. They typically can come up with a meal plan / menu for you and will also hold you accountable for the weight gain / or loss. That seems to be half of the battle for me. I need someone to hold me accountable or I just won't follow through. Also, don't forget that exercise is a VERY important element of weight gain or loss! If you are gaining weight, but it's mostly fat, not muscle - you are not helping the cause.

My friend, mentioned above, has a quarterly e-newsletter that focuses on these issues. If you would like me to add you to the list of recipients, just email me at melanie_marree@yahoo.com - The e-newsletter will be from "THE ULTIMATE GOAL." Just so you know what to look for - the next one is coming out Sept. 1st.

[Ursa Major]

Melanie, your approach is one of those 'one diet fits all' approaches I was talking about. While it works for SOME people, it won't work for all. Certain people need more protein, while others need more carbs, while others need more fat. Everybody is different, and that is why it's so very important to find out what makes you feel good and satisfied, and what makes you feel terrible.

For myself, unless I eat animal protein with EVERY meal, I'll be hungry and feeling starved within an hour. ALL starches and grains/flours make me feel awful, as in extremely fatigued and sluggish. I also need a fair amount of saturated fats to feel well, and yes, to lose weight. Starches will make me gain weight immediately, while fat helps me lose weight!

My daughter will eat a large mixed salad and feel satisfied until the next meal. I will feel nauseous and dizzy with hunger within an hour of eating a large salad, unless I put a generous amount of cut-up chicken, or a whole can of tuna in with it. And even then I need a snack within a couple of hours to keep me going until the next meal.

My daughter and I have very different metabolisms, in fact, they appear to be opposite to each other. My husband and my son are somewhere in the middle, and your kind of diet is perfect for them. It is only right for the mixed type.

Unfortunately, most nutritionists are only helpful for the mixed type, because they still believe in the awful 'food pyramid', which is very unhelpful, even damaging to most people.

[Lauren M]

Andrea -

So what are you now? Do you eat meat?

- Lauren

[Melzo]

Melanie, your approach is one of those 'one diet fits all' approaches I was talking about. While it works for SOME people, it won't work for all. Certain people need more protein, while others need more carbs, while others need more fat. Everybody is different, and that is why it's so very important to find out what makes you feel good and satisfied, and what makes you feel terrible.

For myself, unless I eat animal protein with EVERY meal, I'll be hungry and feeling starved within an hour. ALL starches and grains/flours make me feel awful, as in extremely fatigued and sluggish. I also need a fair amount of saturated fats to feel well, and yes, to lose weight. Starches will make me gain weight immediately, while fat helps me lose weight!

My daughter will eat a large mixed salad and feel satisfied until the next meal. I will feel nauseous and dizzy with hunger within an hour of eating a large salad, unless I put a generous amount of cut-up chicken, or a whole can of tuna in with it. And even then I need a snack within a couple of hours to keep me going until the next meal.

My daughter and I have very different metabolisms, in fact, they appear to be opposite to each other. My husband and my son are somewhere in the middle, and your kind of diet is perfect for them. It is only right for the mixed type.

Unfortunately, most nutritionists are only helpful for the mixed type, because they still believe in the awful 'food pyramid', which is very unhelpful, even damaging to most people.

Ursula:

I don't think that you read or understood my message at all. What I was explaining is not a diet at all, especially a "one diet fits all" as you state. Nor was I saying you can't eat more carbs than proteins, etc... I am saying that COMPLETELY eliminating a food group from your diet is harmful. I am saying that people eat WAY too much food entirely or not enough in Gail's case. I am talking about moderation. You can eat your proteins because you are a "protein" type person - but if you are eating more than 6 oz of meat - you are eating more than one serving, thus overeating. Again I go back to my example of going to a restaurant where they put on your plate 4 to 5 times the amount of food that we should be eating - but we typically eat the entire meal (even a half of meal is too much). Catch my drift? And I am not saying that certain types of foods don't tide me over to the next meal better than others and I truely believe that each person is different.

Most people don't even realize that by eliminating foods and calories that they will actually gain weight. Your body needs certain types of food to quicken your metabolism and when it is not stimulated - it holds on to fat - it does not make you lose weight. I actually experienced this first hand when I sat down with the nutritionist. She had me write down my entire week - what I ate. I found out that I was not taking in enough calories, or certain types of foods that MY (mind you MY, not anyone elses) body needed. With a little bit of tweaking, I was taking in enough calories and was quickly losing weight - and have kept it off ever since. (Except that I'm pregnant and gaining like crazy) I was 5'-6" at 130 lbs. My BMI was 21 which is very good. I couldn't have done that by doing what I was doing. (Eliminating foods, not eating enough foods, etc...)

When I say to speak to a nutritionist - speak to a good one - not one that you states follows a food pyramid. I found myself a good one - and in this world there are good doctors, bad doctors. Good lawyers, bad lawers. Good people, bad people. Don't get sucked up into the mind set that one group of people are just bad - it doesn't help the people that might benefit from it (like myself). Most good nutritionists will evaluate you for you. Not put you into a catagory. They should spend time with you EVERY WEEK and evaluate what is going on - what is working, what is not working for YOU. I wish that you would of had a good experience with a nutritionist like I did - it has literally changed my life.

I guess what we are both trying to say is that not one diet works for everyone - even your diet. There may be hundreds of people that don't fall into any catagory that you mentioned and do not lose the weight. By saying that I am a "mixed catagory," puts me into a catagory - which might not be a beneficial diet for me to follow at all. Three types of catagories (protein, carb, and mixed) really simplifies a very complicated process that will work for some people, but not all.

[AndreaB]

Andrea -

So what are you now? Do you eat meat?

- Lauren

Lauren,

Yes, I eat meat. Mainly chicken and beef with some salmon and turkey. We only buy the free range, natural or organic meats and wild fish. I also eat eggs again, also organic free range. Had gone back on dairy and have cut back down to just butter also organic. I have a mild allergy to it but butter subs are hard when you can't eat soy. We are gluten-free/SF and dairy light at this point. Still debating whether we want to try any other beans. I've thrown out most of them. Our grocery buget has gone out the door. Of course, it doesn't help that we've been buying all sorts of enjoy life cookies. I also stocked up on flour and some meat so things should get better. I'm one who buys large quantities. 25# bags of flour and such. Lots of money up front but it saves in the long run. Now if I could only figure out how to increase my food budget so I could buy all organic. Any one out there know of a good place to buy a money tree?

Again I go back to my example of going to a restaurant where they put on your plate 4 to 5 times the amount of food that we should be eating - but we typically eat the entire meal (even a half of meal is too much).

What's a serving? I'm one of those that serves too much. If I have company I let them dish up how much they want to I don't overfeed them.

[Ursa Major]

Melanie, I apologize, I truly misunderstood you. Your nutritionist is obviously an exception, she sounds excellent. And when I was talking about the three food types, I didn't qualify that those are just broad catecories to get a guideline of where you stand. You then have to find out exactly what works for everybody within those categories. I happen to be on the extreme end of the protein type, while some people falling into this category would be very close to the mixed type, and within that type, many would almost be a protein or carb type. And some people within the carb type would almost need to be vegetarians, while others need a fair amount of meat or eggs.

If you would read the book I mentioned, it states that once you have figured out your general type (with a long questionnaire they provide), you then have to keep a food diary to find out how you feel after every food you ate, and how you are at the end of the day, to get to the diet that is right just for you. Because there is truly no diet that fits everybody equally well. We're all unique.

I do agree with you about serving size. Many restaurants serve way too much, and it was rare when I could finish what was on my plate when I was still able to eat out.

And actually, we were agreeing (without me recognizing it) about not cutting out any food entirely. Except for grains and starches, obviously I am doing just fine without them. Of course, I am getting some starches from vegetables, which is all I need. Any more than that makes me gain weight immediately, and makes me feel bloated and gassy. Not to mentioned spaced out!

[Melzo]

Because there is truly no diet that fits everybody equally well. We're all unique.

I do agree with you about serving size. Many restaurants serve way too much, and it was rare when I could finish what was on my plate when I was still able to eat out.

And actually, we were agreeing (without me recognizing it) about not cutting out any food entirely. Except for grains and starches, obviously I am doing just fine without them. Of course, I am getting some starches from vegetables, which is all I need. Any more than that makes me gain weight immediately, and makes me feel bloated and gassy. Not to mentioned spaced out!

Yes, we are all unique aren't we! We are in total agreement there.

As far as the book is concerned, it sounds like a good book and I would never disqualify a "diet" that is truely working for someone (but at the same time is healthy). I just found my "solution" in a different location (my nutritionist) - and that works for me. I am happy to hear that the book is helping you to gain / or lose weight.

Yes, that was my point exactly - that by cutting out a whole food group is not a healthy way to approach a diet. By doing that, your body is lacking some type of vitamin or mineral that it needs to thrive. Of course if you find a food that makes you feel like crap, you don't eat it. Luckily there are many substitutes in each food group. If you find that you can't eat wheat that is in the grain group, you move onto a different grain that you can eat.

[Ursa Major]

If you find that you can't eat wheat that is in the grain group, you move onto a different grain that you can eat.

Well, I found out that I am intolerant to ALL grains and starches. Therefore I had to cut out the whole group. The same goes for dairy, eggs, legumes, all herbs and spices and nightshades and pretty much all fruit. If I eat even pears or Golden Delicious apples (the only fruits I can still tolerate) more than once every few days, I get an allergic reaction to them (oral allergy syndrome). Oh, I can use some lime juice in my salad dressing, that seems to be okay.

But to cut out all meat or all vegetables would be bad. Those truly are giving you essential nutrients.

Well, the book itself is not helping me lose weight. I read it a couple of years ago and did the test, and then initially stopped following the diet I knew worked for me (high protein, low carb, which also meant NO BREAD!). Unfortunately my family, in their ignorance, were constantly hounding me about 'not eating healthy', because I ate 'too much meat and fat' (because the media was proclaiming that red meat and saturated fat is bad for you, and that everybody should be on a low fat, high carb diet to be healthy), and that they were afraid I would die of a heart attack. And I 'needed' to eat more bread, and should eat only chicken twice a week. Every time they saw me eat (especially my control freak husband), I would hear, "aren't you eating too much? Should you be eating all that meat? You would do better eating more salad/fruit/beans/dairy/whole grains (all the things I am intolerant to, of course). It was enough to make me so depressed I was suicidal.

So, eventually I gave in and ate their way, and got really sick again (after initially starting to lose weight and feeling soooooooooooo much better). But they stopped bugging me, which was less stress.

Only when finally I figured out I have celiac disease, and my doctor agreed with that, and with having those other intolerances, did they relent. Because, after all, if the doctor says so, it must be true, right? It is terribly frustrating for me that they think that way, and will trust my very ignorant doctor more than me! I am the one who figured it out, my doctor was clueless. But they put more weight in her opinion than mine.

Of course, when my grown children are sick (or their kids) they'll call me for advice, because I do a lot of medical research, and managed to raise them without taking them to a doctor more than once every five to ten years or so. So, why wouldn't they trust me when it came to knowing what I should eat? After all, it's my body, and they didn't feel the way I did.

Okay, end of rant. Sometimes I just have to get my frustration out.

[wozzy]

I don't know...I think I would die if I went vegetarian along with being gluten-free. My diet is already restricted enough.

[shai76]

Same here. I eat the "eat what I can without dying of an allergic reaction or crapping my brains out" diet.

[penguin]

Same here. I eat the "eat what I can without dying of an allergic reaction or crapping my brains out" diet.

LOL

I'm on a similar diet (normally, not during these three months): the "eat what I can without passing out or crapping my brains out" diet

[BRUMI1968]

I wouldn't think you would GAIN weight on vegetarian diet...I probalby lost a few pounds when I did it 15 years ago.

What if you took the best of vegetarianism - which is vegetables (and fruits and nuts) - and added more of it to your diet than you eat now. (The best veggies are the non-starchy ones.)

Whatever you do, don't add cheese and soy to make up for a lack of protein - these things are most likely not good for anyone, but most especially not good for someone whose intestines are damaged from Celiac. These are high allergic foods and high GLUE foods - munging up the system, if you will.

[wozzy]

Yeah I had trouble with soy for awhile after going gluten-free, but now it's ok.