Social Behavior -add, Aspergers Etc.

[Jestgar]

This is the same for me, often the equation has a visual aspect I can just see. This was something i found hard in analytical work but forced myself .. however I still can't tie my own laces like anyone else.

I can come up with an amazing interpretation of data, but the only extremity I know is my right hand. Everything else I have to figure out by elimination. eg instruction:move your left foot. me: right hand, other one must be left hand, right below that must be left foot.

Good thing I never had aspirations to be a dancer

[Ursa Major]

Whist learning French I have not spent a single minute learning vocabulary yet I know words which most French people don't even know ... from reading. If I have to look up a word it is most likely NOT in the compact bilingual dictionary. Most of this is thanks to J.K. Rowling with a liberal seasoning of Hugo and other masters not to mention signs in museums but all of it has been learned just by reading and putting into context and the aid of a dictionary.

.... and i still do not understand the fundamentals of English grammar.

Wow, that's just like I learn languages! My application of grammar in German, and I believe in English as well, is excellent, maybe even quite perfect. In grade school in Germany I would usually be the only one in my class (all the way through school) who got 100% on every German test, and for every essay I ever wrote. And yet, when my teacher asked me to explain the rules of grammar to the other kids, so they could understand them as well, I'd sit there with a red face, because I had no clue of the rules. I only knew that if it sounded right (and looked right on the paper, when it came to spelling), it must be right. And it was.

I learned English by reading. I rarely read novels, I read to learn (and I go in cycles of obsessively learning about a single subject at a time, which right now is celiac disease). You are guaranteed to expend your vocabulary in a hurry by reading scientific books in a foreign language! But again, I would have no clue how to explain English grammar rules to you. Those rules simply don't seem to make any sense to me. And to confuse matters even more, English and German sentences are structured the opposite way. Which is fine, because I only think in one language at a time, so there is no confusion.

Ursula,

Since you have limited social connectivity, I'll be direct in saying this. You often come across in your posts as feeling victimized.

Stop that.

Just because you don't fit someone's definition of "normal" doesn't mean that your skills aren't equally as useful to the world as a whole. You have very deep insights that (I think) less introverted people will never find on their own, but benefit from hearing. You have over and over proven your value on this site and you are far too important to this community and probably any community you are a part of to act like a victim. Just believe that you deserve to have people make exceptions for you, just as you graciously make exceptions for them.

Thank you for telling me that. I guess I can still hear my mother's voice, who told me every day that I was worthless, useless and good for nothing. And she wasn't the only one saying those things. It is good to hear that apparently there are people who completely disagree with that, and think I am useful after all. Plus, I have a very abusive husband (not physically abusive, but mentally abusive), who makes me feel like I am good for nothing! He is one of the most social people ever, and doesn't even try to understand where I am coming from. And most of my kids are the same way.

I love this forum. I have been more accepted here than most other places. And I have learned so much as well!

[Jestgar]

I have a very abusive husband (not physically abusive, but mentally abusive), who makes me feel like I am good for nothing! He is one of the most social people ever, and doesn't even try to understand where I am coming from. And most of my kids are the same way.

I realize the choices for staying with or leaving a spouse are very complex and even though my desire is to say "Toss the M####er F####er out on his @$$." You obviously get some benefit from the relationship as you have chosen to stay with him.

Hopefully you'll soon be able to say, No, you're wrong, I'm good for a lot of things. But thanks for thinking of me anyway. Allowing people to treat you that way doesn't make others feel sorry for you or turn their attention to you. Mostly they just walk away.

[penguin]

Wow, that's just like I learn languages! My application of grammar in German, and I believe in English as well, is excellent, maybe even quite perfect. In grade school in Germany I would usually be the only one in my class (all the way through school) who got 100% on every German test, and for every essay I ever wrote. And yet, when my teacher asked me to explain the rules of grammar to the other kids, so they could understand them as well, I'd sit there with a red face, because I had no clue of the rules. I only knew that if it sounded right (and looked right on the paper, when it came to spelling), it must be right. And it was.

Now that's wierd, because I learn languages and write the same way. I don't have a friggin' clue about grammar rules to explain them, but I use them near-perfectly. I also never proof read, so how I managed to have such good grades on written assignments in school is beyond me. I was even published in the newspaper a couple of times in high school with a byline and everything. I can say anything on paper and it will sound like the best argument ever made, but I trip over words when spoken. I had always blamed my exemplary writing ability on my Montessori school education, but this whole thread has me thinking...

I'm also very good at languages, I pick them up very quickly and can write well in them. I'm not too shabby at speaking them, but won't speak them to a native speaker. I get stage fright. French especially terrifies me, though I'm the most proficient at it. I just worry how stupid my American accent must sound!

On the other hand, I'm pretty social. I'm just wierd, I guess.

[Jestgar]

French especially terrifies me, though I'm the most proficient at it. I just worry how stupid my American accent must sound!

Ya know, if you think about how sexy someone sounds when speaking English with a foreign accent, ya gotta figure that speaking French with an American accent must sound pretty sexy to a native French speakers ears.

[2kids4me]

Ursula, I find I like to read all your responses to various threads and posts. You are direct and have loads of information and insight. Perhaps I find it easy to read your posts because you sound very much like my daughter in how you see the world, and I am always trying to learn more about Aspergers /Aspies from those who know best - the Aspies. I read Temple Grandin's book: Thinking in Pictures and I have had the opportunity to meet her. Want to talk about a NT husband who made and a** of himself in front of Temple Grandin?? (for those who dont know her, she revolutionized cattle handling systems and is an Aspie).

My husband and I attended a lecture by Temple re: cattle handling. It was a small gathering and I had the opportunity to speak with her, I explained that my daughter had Aspergers and that I found her book helpful. She immediately began asking me questions, and said: Find out her special focus and help her seek out a carreer that encompasses that special focus. My D loves stuffed animals and real animals too, she wants to be a zookeeper. Temple was fascinated by doors and understood how animals think - so she mastered animal handling systems and is an expert. Then Temple asked how D is on computers - I said she likes them but wont stay on it long - and I also offered that D hates escalators - is very scared to get on them. Temple zeroed in on that and said - that is characteristic of someone with visual processing difficulties, get her a flat screen or a lap top - she is seeing the flicker on the screen that "normal people" do not and it is tiring. By this time I am listening attentively and grab my husband as he walks by, and say "listen to this! If we get a laptop for D, it will help her"......Temple is standing right there and DH bursts out laughing at the thought of getting a laptop for a child, then he made some comment he thought was funny. Temple stared at him and walked away. She wouldnt talk to us the rest of the time she was there - who can blame her !!!! Here we are, getting advice on how best to help our D and DH thinks it is a joke. Like an Aspie would joke about that. Mind you this same DH teases his daughter and is offended when she gets upset and tells him to stop. That's MY biggest hurdle - it isnt dealing with medical issues or helping my D ..........it dealing with an ignorant NT who doesnt get it. Funny how with explanation, D will understand concepts about social interaction and the NT can get it explained time and again and he doesn't ever clue in!

[Ursa Major]

So, DID you get that laptop for your daughter? That sounds like a fabulous idea! I think every Aspie needs his/her own computer. I have great difficulty with handwriting. I can write legibly, without mistakes for about half a page, and then it will deteriorate. My mind will go faster than my poorly coordinated hand will write, and I end up making mistakes, cross them out, write over top etc., it looks very messy. On a bad day I mess up my own signature!

But typing is easy. I type very fast with all ten fingers, without looking at the keys at all. The great thing is, that I can easily fix my mistakes and nobody ever knows the difference. I am glad that kids who are identified with these difficulties now get to use a laptop in class for their writing, that would have helped me so much! My teachers would keep me in at recess all the time to copy things again, because they couldn't read them. And many times I would get worse marks than I deserved (even in subjects like math, because Germans are very picky about 'beautiful, neat handwriting) because my work didn't look pretty enough.

I can understand Temple walking away when your husband laughed, I would have done the same thing. What he said and did would have been extremely insulting to her!

Actually, it was Temple Grandin I quoted in an earlier post, you know the one about if we were all NTs we'd still be living in caves, socializing. I just didn't mention who I quoted, because I thought that most people wouldn't know who she was, anyway.

I don't agree with everything she says. One of her problems is, that she thinks all Aspies/people with HFA are the same, think the same, feel the same. She is wrong about that. Aspies are individuals, too, and are in many ways just as different from each other as NTs are from each other.

[2kids4me]

So, DID you get that laptop for your daughter? That sounds like a fabulous idea! I think every Aspie needs his/her own computer.

Yes I did! She loves it and stays on the computer longer and is happy when she is finished - prior to that, when she used the regular monitor, she used to go to her room and lay down.

One thing we used for our D from Temple Grandin is a"squishy vest" based on her theory that presssure calms the nervous system. It worked great! I used a vest pattern, stuffed it with quilt padding - the sides were slit and I used velcro straps down each side so she could adjust the "squishiness". She puts it on herself when she cant settle down, and she gets a big smile and says "phew, that's better!". Wouldn't work on everybody, but it worked for D so that's what counts. Its like a squishy hug but without the human contact.

[Ursa Major]

I am glad the laptop works better for her. And I've heard from other Aspies that pressure helps them. Unfortunately, it's the opposite for me, that's the type of thing that would make me feel like suffocating. Instead of feeling better, I'd have a terrible panic attack! But as I said, everybody is different. I wished it worked for me, too, it's such an easy fix for being overwhelmed. I can't handle anything tight on me anywhere.

Mind you, that has gotten somewhat better on the gluten-free diet. When I am glutened, I get a feeling of pressure in my stomach area, really, around my breastbone, that any pressure there (turning even a loose bra into a torture instrument) will result in me feeling terrible.

I realize the choices for staying with or leaving a spouse are very complex and even though my desire is to say "Toss the M####er F####er out on his @$$." You obviously get some benefit from the relationship as you have chosen to stay with him.

Well, at this point I don't have too many choices. Especially because I can't just leave my 14-year-old youngest daughter, who he drives to insanity with his having to completely control everything and everybody. At this point I really have no means of supporting us if I leave. That is one reason for taking those computer courses, I hope to become good enough to be able to support us if necessary. Having options will also help me not feeling so powerless. Not to mention getting a big boost in self esteem from having some valuable skills. Plus, it will be fun! I rarely manage to have any fun.

[gfp]

So, DID you get that laptop for your daughter? That sounds like a fabulous idea! I think every Aspie needs his/her own computer. I have great difficulty with handwriting. I can write legibly, without mistakes for about half a page, and then it will deteriorate. My mind will go faster than my poorly coordinated hand will write, and I end up making mistakes, cross them out, write over top etc., it looks very messy. On a bad day I mess up my own signature!

That is exactly like me, especially the signature thing. Wow can that one be a stumbler when signing a cheque. I get halfway through and my mind is just blank. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence with a teller.

But typing is easy. I type very fast with all ten fingers, without looking at the keys at all. The great thing is, that I can easily fix my mistakes and nobody ever knows the difference.

Yep if I try to write something I just trip myself over, like a big puppy who's feet are way to big. The more important or interesting thing Im writing the worse it is because my mind is racing further and further ahead.

I can understand Temple walking away when your husband laughed, I would have done the same thing. What he said and did would have been extremely insulting to her!

Actually, it was Temple Grandin I quoted in an earlier post, you know the one about if we were all NTs we'd still be living in caves, socializing. I just didn't mention who I quoted, because I thought that most people wouldn't know who she was, anyway.

Ursula: I would have had no idea but I intend to look it up now you mentioned it.

Also most of the NT's reading this will probably realise that I think you are highly intellegent and add a great deal to this forum but you probably don't because I never said it directly hence I am telling you directly.

Ya know, if you think about how sexy someone sounds when speaking English with a foreign accent, ya gotta figure that speaking French with an American accent must sound pretty sexy to a native French speakers ears.

That is easy to say and true from what I'm told but it really doesn't help.

I am terribly embarassed speaking French even though my level is somewhat better than the average tourist. Partly its because I know I should be better but mainly its because I can't say exactly what I mean the same way I do in English. As I mentioned earlier my first words in English were a sentence and I guess I just didn't want to say anything until then.

I am the same in French, I hate to not be able to say exactly what I want... going back to what Ursula said about typing ... this is my preferred method of communication because I am able to make sure Im saying exactly what I mean... especially to differentiate opinion, belief and fact. This is incredibly important to me in communication ... I prefer to say exactly what I mean not beat around the bush which also leads to long posts because I want to make sure I have explained what I mean.

While talking in French I am self concious all the time that I am not as direct as I would like to be.

I also use English as a defensive mechanism, I can be very articulate when I choose, indeed when Ursual talked about being bullied it made me remember the number of times I have torn apart some bully without laying a finger on them tot he point where a "high functioning bully" is unable to be violent without looking completely stupid, however the neanderthals I don't bother, they are too stupid to even realise they look ridiculous inthe first place.

I hate being overheard talking in English as well... I think largely because if someone makes a comment I am not able to respond as I would in English but neither do I find it easy to ignore snide comments.

I realize the choices for staying with or leaving a spouse are very complex and even though my desire is to say "Toss the M####er F####er out on his @$$." You obviously get some benefit from the relationship as you have chosen to stay with him.

I rather expect its more complex,

Ursula: You possibly provide an insight when you say how you tend to focus on a task. "I go in cycles of obsessively learning about a single subject at a time, which right now is celiac disease"

When this is combined with your obvious intellegence and problems communicating feelings etc. you probably make your husband feel very inadequate. As you have said you are almost always correct and that can really annoy people... they don't realise that you have let lots of things slide by because you were not certain, all they realise is that when you do say something its usually not only correct but you have proof. I suspect that for you (as with myself) its not about being the person who is correct it is about the facts ... I find it very dishonest to let errors slip by .. leaving someone in error is like lying to me.

I had this pointed out by my ex-wife when she was telling me why she didn't love me anymore.

She pointed out how she used to be amazed by my dedication to a single task but that over time she got fed up waiting for the continual string of dedicated tasks to end and for me to devote time to her and her feelings. Probably most importantly the fact I couldn't tell when she was really upset over something etc.

[queenofhearts]

I love what you're saying, Ursula.

I have always been a loner. As a child I was painfully shy, but now I'm merely quiet and thoughtful. I am what I call a "serial obsessor" - I spend all my effort on some one thing for years at a time, then I've had enough, and move on to something else. I find it hard to identify with people who have never found anything to be interesting enough to obsess over. And they will tell me to get a life, when they appear to have none of their own, as though watching tv sitcoms and sports is the only life worth living.

Wow-- this sounds so familiar! I have always described myself as a "serial perfectionist"-- depending on when you catch me, I can be obsessing over almost anything-- including learning to bake gluten-free, my latest mania. My "fits", as some would call them, usually last anywhere from a week or two to months, then I suddenly switch to the next fascination. When I am in these moods I find it a huge effort to pay enough attention to other things. I can make myself do it, but it is NOT easy.

I tend to cycle between various recurring interests, with new ones scattered in from time to time. I find these periods of intense focus extremely pleasurable though they can be very demanding... I love a challenge so long as it is the challenge I have chosen.

The one thread that seems to connect most of my obsessions is that I absolutely NEED to make things. EVERY DAY, if at all possible! I get so restless & miserable if I have to be passive for long. I just returned from a short vacation & the one evening I cooked for my hosts was an absolute relief to me! My husband looked at me as I was bustling about in the kitchen & said with amusement, "You're having fun now, aren't you?" And it was true-- though I enjoyed being a tourist, chatting with the hosts, &c., I had been itching to get those hands busy! I'm really not sure why this is... any thoughts?

Leah

[Ursa Major]

I rather expect its more complex,

Ursula: You possibly provide an insight when you say how you tend to focus on a task. "I go in cycles of obsessively learning about a single subject at a time, which right now is celiac disease"

When this is combined with your obvious intelligence and problems communicating feelings etc. you probably make your husband feel very inadequate. As you have said you are almost always correct and that can really annoy people... they don't realise that you have let lots of things slide by because you were not certain, all they realise is that when you do say something its usually not only correct but you have proof. I suspect that for you (as with myself) its not about being the person who is correct it is about the facts ... I find it very dishonest to let errors slip by .. leaving someone in error is like lying to me.

I had this pointed out by my ex-wife when she was telling me why she didn't love me anymore.

She pointed out how she used to be amazed by my dedication to a single task but that over time she got fed up waiting for the continual string of dedicated tasks to end and for me to devote time to her and her feelings. Probably most importantly the fact I couldn't tell when she was really upset over something etc.

Well, I am afraid you're probably right with some of what you say (sigh). My husband knows I am more intelligent than him (even though I am very careful to not ever directly mention that fact), he has said so a few times. My IQ is in the gifted range (I won't say where, I don't want to brag), and his is in the average range. Huge difference. Still, he is capable of doing many things I can't do. He can talk to anybody without any inhibitions (he is a personnel recruiter, or headhunter), never gets completely overwhelmed by any job, never gets completely stressed out by anything.

Whereas my stress tolerance is so low, that I am incapable of holding a job out there in the work world. That's why I want to take those courses, so that maybe I could be a webmaster for somebody, or design websites. I can do that from my own computer at home, without too much personal contact with people (I am terrible with strangers).

And of course, when I get completely absorbed in something, I totally forget about time and space (and about cooking supper or cleaning, doing the laundry etc.), and he tells me I love my computer more than him (and there is truth to that, even though I am communicating with people, but he doesn't see the difference). Sometimes he comes home at night (around 8:00 PM), and thinks nobody is home, because it has grown dark and the house is pitch black. But here I am on the computer, so absorbed in what I am doing, that I didn't notice that it's dark, and have no clue what time it is.

One reason I am not too concerned with his feelings is, that he doesn't seem to care about mine (heart of stone, really), and that he wants to completely control me. If he could, he'd control my thoughts. In fact, he used to try that! Up to a few years ago he'd ask me what I was thinking when he saw me being in thought. And I'd be stupid enough to tell him. Somehow, in his opinion, my thoughts were never 'befitting a Christian woman', or pure enough, or whatever else he found wrong with them. He'd really upset me every time.

Until finally I realized that thoughts are private! And from then on, when he asked me, I'd tell him my thoughts were private and none of his business. He hated that. His reasoning for asking me what my thoughts were was, that he claims the bible says, that 'a friend tells a friend everything'. Since your spouse is supposed to be your best friend, he/she is 'required' to share all his/her thoughts! How ridiculous, another complete misinterpretation of a good bible verse. He excels in misinterpreting selected bible verses to fit his agenda. He still sometimes asks me what I am thinking, but I won't tell him, because it ALWAYS backfires.

In fact, telling him when I am upset, or hurting, or often what I am thinking on whatever subject usually backfires. He finds fault with everything I say or do. I really don't know why. We have nothing in common I'm afraid.

Oh well, I better go, I've got lots to do (and my husband is growing more impatient with me for not doing the tasks he has decided I need to do).

[queenofhearts]

Ursula, your story reminds me of a woman I used to know who had an absolutely photographic memory. I expressed envy, & she said it was as much curse as blessing, mainly because in any conflict with others that involved memory, she ALWAYS knew she was right, but if she expressed that certainty she was universally resented & disliked. Certainly made me see it in a different light.

Leah

[DingoGirl]

Ursula, your husband sounds quite difficult to live with (I have followed your other posts to this end)....you might quote to him verses from Proverbs relating specifically to the tongue and the poison it can emit ....and no, it doesn't sound like the two of you have anything in common! You are doing the very best you can, working with the brain and talents God gave you, and with everything you've been through, I think you're doing amazingly well. Remind your husband also that God "comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble wiht the comfort we ourselves have received from God." (I Cor. 1:4)

And you do provide comfort to many of us here.

Hugs - -

[gfp]

Well, I am afraid you're probably right with some of what you say (sigh). My husband knows I am more intelligent than him (even though I am very careful to not ever directly mention that fact), he has said so a few times. My IQ is in the gifted range (I won't say where, I don't want to brag), and his is in the average range. Huge difference. Still, he is capable of doing many things I can't do. He can talk to anybody without any inhibitions (he is a personnel recruiter, or headhunter), never gets completely overwhelmed by any job, never gets completely stressed out by anything.

I think you are wrong and can't see it because you are inside.

I think your husband does get stressed out because he can't understand YOU and that causes him to become stressed in a way he has no way of expressing, whereas you are used to having problems expressing feelings for him it is a different thing. Not to mention your comment "heart of stone, really" ... makes me realise because I am looking from the outside that he probably does have problems expressing feelings... which doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

Whereas my stress tolerance is so low, that I am incapable of holding a job out there in the work world. That's why I want to take those courses, so that maybe I could be a webmaster for somebody, or design websites. I can do that from my own computer at home, without too much personal contact with people (I am terrible with strangers).

I think this is a fine idea.

And of course, when I get completely absorbed in something, I totally forget about time and space (and about cooking supper or cleaning, doing the laundry etc.), and he tells me I love my computer more than him (and there is truth to that, even though I am communicating with people, but he doesn't see the difference). Sometimes he comes home at night (around 8:00 PM), and thinks nobody is home, because it has grown dark and the house is pitch black. But here I am on the computer, so absorbed in what I am doing, that I didn't notice that it's dark, and have no clue what time it is.

Well, Im in that situation right now with my gluten-free... I can feel her sulk coming....

One reason I am not too concerned with his feelings is, that he doesn't seem to care about mine (heart of stone, really), and that he wants to completely control me.

He obviously does or he wouldn't be trying to control them.... I think he has problems expressing his feelings and uses you as an excuse. "Hey its not his fault he can't share them with you?" (that is meant to be him thinking)

If he could, he'd control my thoughts. In fact, he used to try that! Up to a few years ago he'd ask me what I was thinking when he saw me being in thought. And I'd be stupid enough to tell him. Somehow, in his opinion, my thoughts were never 'befitting a Christian woman', or pure enough, or whatever else he found wrong with them. He'd really upset me every time.

You know his biggest fear might be loosing you! I need total honesty in a relationship, I can't hold secrets to myself or it would drive me mad.

I agree your thoughts are privite BUT at the same time if a person who coinsiders themself your best friend asks them they should damn well be ready to deal with them.

Whatever your thoughts were the phrase 'befitting a Christian woman' is complete BS....

We do not control what we think... we explore possibilites. Your thoughts are merely a way of looking over those possibilities and you probably analyse way more scenarios than most people.

Thoughts range from immediate (what if I I make a cup of tea?) to complete abstract (what if instead of learning HTML I learn to rob banks) .. the latter is just exploring the possibilitiy because you know full well you are not going to do this but it helps you because it sets limits on what you will do. It was purely abstract and the pupose was to reaffirm to yourself you won't do whatever it takes for money. So this relates back to what if you were asked to do a website for some organisation you strongly oppose!

If he is referring to lustful thoughts ... this is more about his own insecurity... everyone has thoughts what makes us who we are is not the thoughts but our ability to control our own actions. We have all sorts of silly thoughts provoked by silly things, just writing a simple letter involves analysing every word and the avenues it opens ... for you this is far more than most people so you explore these scenarios...

(I have already deleted countless words in this post because of avenues )

Until finally I realized that thoughts are private! And from then on, when he asked me, I'd tell him my thoughts were private and none of his business. He hated that. His reasoning for asking me what my thoughts were was, that he claims the bible says, that 'a friend tells a friend everything'. Since your spouse is supposed to be your best friend, he/she is 'required' to share all his/her thoughts! How ridiculous, another complete misinterpretation of a good bible verse. He excels in misinterpreting selected bible verses to fit his agenda. He still sometimes asks me what I am thinking, but I won't tell him, because it ALWAYS backfires.

I don't know but I doubt this helps... it probably just sets the two of you at odds. If he doesn't like your thoughts he will get over it.. if you don't tell himit builds resentment.

I dunno and ASK YOUR COUNCELLER first .. but perhaps tell him you were just daydreaming about stupid thoughts and just running over possibilities in your head as an academic exersize.

In fact, telling him when I am upset, or hurting, or often what I am thinking on whatever subject usually backfires. He finds fault with everything I say or do. I really don't know why. We have nothing in common I'm afraid.

I would imagine that is because he can't fix them. Men are not good at things they can't fix because it challenges them. When someone finds fault with everything this is usually an indication of their own inadequacy be it real or perceived. Getting him to admit this is the hardest and then getting himn to accept he can't fix everything the next step.

Oh well, I better go, I've got lots to do (and my husband is growing more impatient with me for not doing the tasks he has decided I need to do).

And my girlfriend is proably the same, she already made a lot of noise tidying... I guess that's a signal it must be done now ...

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Ursula, I agree with gfp! I wrote a whole big post to you and somehow deleted the entire thing accidentally (arrghh!), so I'm starting over today.

What I was thinking yesterday was, what if, instead of being on the computer all day, you were on the telephone chatting to your girlfriends? (I know that's something ou would NEVER do--just bear with me for a few minutes and you'll understand why I make the comparison). If you were spending all your time chatting on the phone, and your husband came home from work and found the house dark and you oblivious to everything but your own conversation, don't you think he might feel a bit left out? It seems to me that your being on the computer "with us" is very similar to chatting on the phone.

I don't mean to diminish the importance of your presence on this board. I think you offer invaluable support, insight, and information to all of us! But this is what the so-called neurotypical women (who are seeming less and less "normal" in my eyes these days!) do with their friends on the telephone, right? It's often their perceived link to sanity.

My point in comparing computer tme with telephone time is that, if my husband were to come home and find me on the telephone (or the computer,for that matter)with the house dark, he might very well feel that I have not fulfilled my responsibilities in keeping the household on track (i.e., dinner made, housework attempted, and more importantly, children helped with homework, practicing, emotional support as needed, etc). With the household on track, THEN there is time for husband and wife to ask how the other is, offer listening time if the other needs it, and generally reconnect.

It is this reconnecting (or in your case, connecting in the first place!) that is what is so difficult for many Aspies to understand. I think that your husband is trying to connect with you when he asks you what you are thinking. The kind of connecting that we do here on this board is a kind of emotional intimacy, really, and I'm sure your husband can see that you are more connected with us than with him. That must hurt. Often, when people feel emotionally hurt, they react with anger. It's one of the more unfortunate aspects of human nature.

Men in general tend to be lousy at expressing or even recognizing their feelings (sorry guys, most women agree on this!). When you have two people who both have difficulty expressing their own thoughts and feelings and trouble reading the other person's needs, thoughts and feelings--well, this to me does not sound like a happy combination!

What if you were to sit down with your husband (preferably when he is in a good mood, and the TV, phone and computer are switched off wo that there are no interruptions) and say, "Look, honey, I know I am not the kind of person you wish I were, and I am frustrated with you, too, but we are married and stuck with each other, so why don't we try to figure out what we can to as a team to try to make our marriage better? I don't mean this as an invitation for you to blame everything on me--this is not a blamefest! But if there is something simple that you think I might be able to understand and try, and if there is something simple that you might try as well, why don't we at least talk about it?"

And if you either don't like or can't understand what he asks (if he responds, that is), you can see, "Hmmm. That's interesting. Would you mind coming with me to my counselor, and maybe she (or he) can help me understand a little better, and maybe she can help put my thoughts more understandable to you."

Or something like that.

And, I have to keep repeating, I think most of the important people in your life (mother, husband, adult children) seem to have REALLY ABYSMAL communications/relationship skills. It's lik the blind leading the blind, the way they are demanding that you act and react on their terms. Or make that, the enraged blind leading the helpless blind. Totally pointless!

I think if you sit back and observe and analyze people and how they react to each other (and why) the way you learned to read and the way you learned languages--it's like learning another language. If you observe enough, you will start to understand human interaction better. The way your family interacts may not be the way most of the world interacts, but I do think that , even with Aspies, there are many underlying common principles of interaction that are the same as with "neurotypicals;" they just don't get recognized because the parameters can be so different.

What if, all this time, your husband really loved you and wanted to connect emotionally with you, and just got frustrated and disappointed over and over again because neither one of you knows how to build a relationship with someone whose needs and expectations are different from your own, and neither one of you knows how to communicate worth a darn? Frustratin brings out the worst in everybody. In your husband's case, it may have brought out is hyper-controlling tendencies. He may be thinking, "I'll MAKE this work!" ("Work" to him meaning his way, not the way that might meet in the middle and be the best for both of you.) And of course, that only makes you retreat further into yourself and your limited (from his point of view) world.

You are so skilled at communicating on the keyboard--maybe that might be the key to communicating with your husband?

[Ursa Major]

gfp and Fiddle Faddle, I really appreciate the time you spent to send your long, thoughtful responses. I've tried everything, though. We've gone to marriage counseling...........my husband went to help the counselor fix ME. It was terribly frustrating and I couldn't do it, it would make me sooooooooo angry.

When we went last year several times to try counseling with our pastor and his wife (I insisted on his wife being there, who is also my best friend, to not just have two guys). They wanted both of us to write a list for the next session of our faults, and where we thought we could improve, so we could talk about them and pray about them etc., and they could help us work them out.

My list was two pages long. My husband didn't have one. He said he couldn't find anything to write down! With our pastor's coaxing he reluctantly admitted that yes, it was possible he was controlling and could be very insensitive to other's feelings (he had been very insensitive in elder's meetings to other men when pointing out their faults, I hear, so our pastor saw those problems first hand). But it was a rather halfhearted admission. He looked like he resented that it was even suggested that he wasn't perfect.

And that is seriously what the biggest problem is. MY HUSBAND THINKS HE IS PERFECT! Really, he does. He meets with our pastor regularly (who loves me dearly), who is trying very hard to gently help my husband see that he is abusing me, and that maybe he is not so perfect. This far without success.

I know I am not perfect. I try very hard to change, and to see things from other people's perspective. But he doesn't. My friend just suggested that we need to meet again, and I should tell him in front of THEM that he is abusing me. She thinks that it will bother him a lot, hearing it in front of others, because he cares an awful lot about how he looks to others. She thinks it may shock him out of denial, and that it might help. Because even though I have told him, he won't talk about it! I told him I was thinking of leaving him, but he refuses to take it seriously. He thinks I don't mean it, he thinks I can't live without him (he said so).

You guys are great. What you said might apply to other men. But my husband probably has got something called 'Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder'. My pastor, his wife, my counselor and several other people agree.

My husband's cousin's wife (who is a good friend) has told me not long ago that she thinks I should take my youngest daughter and leave, before he destroys us both. She says she has watched with a sad heart over the years as he has been destroying me. She has seen the way he treats me first hand.

So, it really, really is much more than just a 'normal' man and an Aspie wife not understanding each other. Much more!

My husband is much like his parents. Both of them have/had a heart of stone. Really, truly. My mother-in-law's sister said to my husband once, that her sister was the most selfish person she knows, and always has been. And she certainly is one of the most selfish, unloving people I know. She lives only an hours drive away. But if she sees her grandchildren once a year, that's plenty for her. Well, I should say, MY children. She spoils the kids from her favourite son (my husband's only brother).

She will only give children gifts (birthday or otherwise), or write them, if they write to her FIRST. She will ignore the ones who don't write her or phone her and suck up to her. She's always had favourites. It was so sad to see some of my kids unwrap one Christmas gift after another many years ago, while the others (the ones who looked like me, not her) were sadly looking on.

They both made it very clear from the beginning that they didn't approve of me. My mother-in-law still doesn't like me, even though I have tried hard to be nice and loving to her over the years.

Anyway, I better get ready for church.

[2kids4me]

She will only give children gifts (birthday or otherwise), or write them, if they write to her FIRST. She will ignore the ones who don't write her or phone her and suck up to her. She's always had favourites. It was so sad to see some of my kids unwrap one Christmas gift after another many years ago, while the others (the ones who looked like me, not her) were sadly looking on.

Holy Cow! That's my mom too. She bashes the kids/grandkids who do not write her. Phonecalls dont count apparently because if they really loved her they'd know how much the letters mean - it means someone took the time to write. The kids who write to her get treated differently.

Also - I recognize some of the personality traits of your husband. Mine is passive aggressive. We tried marriage counselling too, he would sit there and agree with the counsellor when there was talk of reconnecting - he finally agreed to going out as a couple once a month. Then nothing happened, I made reservations and his comment 1 hours prior to supper is: Why do we have to go out to talk (reconnect) why cant we stay home like "most normal couples". ... with stress on the word normal. He had decided without any input from me that there was too much importance placed on this "dinner idea". Anyway - if you looked up passive aggressive - my husband is a classic one. He is the perfect one - everyone else is just intolerant. He doesnt intentionally hurt me so why should he apologize? He intends to get things done or be on time so it is the intention that should count - not the fact his actions are opposite.

Only you Ursula can determine what is best for you. The human emotions are complex and with my daughter, I know she loves me but she doesnt like to share her inner thoughts either. Why should she change to meet the needs of another? It is not a matter of being reluctant to share feelings - she is missing the neuron connections in that part of her brain that allow her to put them all together in speech. She has deep feelings and emotions - she is not hardwired to talk about them. I tell her all the reasons why a NT likes to share their feelings and how it makes the bond stronger etc... but a NT has insight and understand how important these things are... many Aspies find the exercise stressful and "not true to themselves"... dont know if that makes sense.

Every person with AS has personality traits molded by their childhood experience, we all do. Just as every celiac will handle the diagnosis differently - some can cope - others use it as crutch. ( it becomes their reason fo anything negative). Anyone with a medical condition can become that way. Aspergers is not a medical condition that can be fixed - it is a "way of being" that is different from the norm.

There has been some relationship advice in some replies - I have also tried them with my husband. It is really hard to reconnect when he doesnt get home til 9 every night, when he asks my opinion then does the opposite, (because he doesnt like being told what to do). We tried marriage counselling and although he agreed to everything in front of the therapist, he then decided "normal people" shouldnt have to go out to dinner, walks, weekends away, to reconnect, and that he can read the -paper/watch TV and listen so why should he put the paper down to talk to me?

Marriage counselling and reconnecting only work if two people are willing to meet halfway.

[gfp]

gfp and Fiddle Faddle, I really appreciate the time you spent to send your long, thoughtful responses.

Ursula: What we have done is spend a little time trying to help a wonderful and caring person who gives her time freely to help others. I can't speak for fiddle-faddle but thanks are not needed but gratefully received. In other words I feel good you said thanks but it wasn't necassary.

I've tried everything, though. We've gone to marriage counseling...........my husband went to help the counselor fix ME. It was terribly frustrating and I couldn't do it, it would make me sooooooooo angry.

Well that was doomed unless the first thing the councellor told him was you can't fix something that isn't broken and YOU are not broken. What is broken is your relationship .... Neither can you go hoping to fix him.... we are who we are.... all we can do is learn to project who we are.

When we went last year several times to try counseling with our pastor and his wife (I insisted on his wife being there, who is also my best friend, to not just have two guys). They wanted both of us to write a list for the next session of our faults, and where we thought we could improve, so we could talk about them and pray about them etc., and they could help us work them out.

My list was two pages long. My husband didn't have one. He said he couldn't find anything to write down! With our pastor's coaxing he reluctantly admitted that yes, it was possible he was controlling and could be very insensitive to other's feelings (he had been very insensitive in elder's meetings to other men when pointing out their faults, I hear, so our pastor saw those problems first hand). But it was a rather halfhearted admission. He looked like he resented that it was even suggested that he wasn't perfect.

And that is seriously what the biggest problem is. MY HUSBAND THINKS HE IS PERFECT! Really, he does. He meets with our pastor regularly (who loves me dearly), who is trying very hard to gently help my husband see that he is abusing me, and that maybe he is not so perfect. This far without success.

My first thoughts were that a pastor is perhaps not the trained professional councellor you need but then you have good reasons as well. From my side this looks like "MY HUSBAND THINKS HE IS PERFECT!" is not correct but I realise you didn't say this without thinking it through or you would knowingly say it if you don't think its true.

From my standpoint the problem is "YOUR HUSBAND BELIEVES HE IS PERFECT"

When people beleive something then they don't need proof and are quite able to overlook proof to the contrary. The more devout that belief the more they will overlook to the contrary...

This is not limited to religion .. the same is equally true of groups in the armed forces, they are continually told they are the best, they are invincible and indeed just making them believe this can have an effect on the group...

The second question is who are the elders? Are all of these people male?

Perhaps this also is a defining element in your husbands attitude.

I know I am not perfect. I try very hard to change, and to see things from other people's perspective. But he doesn't. My friend just suggested that we need to meet again, and I should tell him in front of THEM that he is abusing me. She thinks that it will bother him a lot, hearing it in front of others, because he cares an awful lot about how he looks to others. She thinks it may shock him out of denial, and that it might help. Because even though I have told him, he won't talk about it! I told him I was thinking of leaving him, but he refuses to take it seriously. He thinks I don't mean it, he thinks I can't live without him (he said so).

OK now I will be devious. .... but the question is can you be devious?

Established facts are your husband respects the pastor? and your husband has a problem with you and with some of the elders. He probably repsects the pastor more about church matters than his marriage....

He believes he is doing nothing wrong and indeed probably quiet the opposite.

My advice is let the pastor deal with his attitude to the elders but with a understanding between you and the pastor that he is to make him see he is not perfect and that he has certain communication problems but that he is highly valued regardless because we all have imperfections (at which point a pastor may want to add an exception about Jesus although this isn't strictly literally true either ... but far be it from me to comment ....

Once your husband comes to realise this then you can address your issues either witth the pastor or better still IMHO with a trained guidance councellor .... each to their speciality but strictly in that ORDER.

You guys are great. What you said might apply to other men. But my husband probably has got something called 'Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder'. My pastor, his wife, my counselor and several other people agree.

My husband's cousin's wife (who is a good friend) has told me not long ago that she thinks I should take my youngest daughter and leave, before he destroys us both. She says she has watched with a sad heart over the years as he has been destroying me. She has seen the way he treats me first hand.

So, it really, really is much more than just a 'normal' man and an Aspie wife not understanding each other. Much more!

She may be correct but you haven't tried this yet. Also you probably find or found apects of his compulsion attractive... his dedication and the like.

What needs to change is the relationship not you or him. This will mean he has to realise things in himself and that might, no will be hurtful and that is why you should not be involved directly over the marriage, indeed he may well end up depending on your support to get through this...

[eKatherine]

gfp and Fiddle Faddle, I really appreciate the time you spent to send your long, thoughtful responses. I've tried everything, though. We've gone to marriage counseling...........my husband went to help the counselor fix ME. It was terribly frustrating and I couldn't do it, it would make me sooooooooo angry.

When we went last year several times to try counseling with our pastor and his wife (I insisted on his wife being there, who is also my best friend, to not just have two guys). They wanted both of us to write a list for the next session of our faults, and where we thought we could improve, so we could talk about them and pray about them etc., and they could help us work them out.

My list was two pages long. My husband didn't have one. He said he couldn't find anything to write down! With our pastor's coaxing he reluctantly admitted that yes, it was possible he was controlling and could be very insensitive to other's feelings (he had been very insensitive in elder's meetings to other men when pointing out their faults, I hear, so our pastor saw those problems first hand). But it was a rather halfhearted admission. He looked like he resented that it was even suggested that he wasn't perfect.

And that is seriously what the biggest problem is. MY HUSBAND THINKS HE IS PERFECT! Really, he does. He meets with our pastor regularly (who loves me dearly), who is trying very hard to gently help my husband see that he is abusing me, and that maybe he is not so perfect. This far without success.

This is giving me flashbacks. When my now ex-husband and I went to the marriage counsellor, he brought his list of "demands" that I would need to meet to keep our marriage together, things like giving the baby a haircut and buying her more clothes, mostly silly things. I just wanted him to give up his girlfriend, which clearly was unreasonable in his mind.

He always thought he was perfect, too. Now the reason I was not perfect was that I had made a conscious decision not to be perfect, while he had chosen to be perfect. Therefore, he was morally obligated to nag me until I changed and decided to be perfect.

One evening he told me he had gone to the counselor to discuss something and the counselor had told him that I needed to do something that I hadn't wanted to do (leave the baby and go off for a four-day weekend, even though she was nursing). The next day I called the counsellor and he told me that my ex-husband had never come in for a visit by himself.

He intends to get things done or be on time so it is the intention that should count - not the fact his actions are opposite.

Did you ever receive a list of presents he was thinking of getting you for Christmas or your birthday instead of a real present? It's the thought that counts, you know.

[2kids4me]

[

Did you ever receive a list of presents he was thinking of getting you for Christmas or your birthday instead of a real present? It's the thought that counts, you know.

OMG How did you know! One year I got a rock inside a box (so i would think he bought me something) and the note said - good for one weekend getaway. I actually got excited and said when do you want to go? - he replied - well you plan it and I'll come. I have had him cancel out before at the last minute so didnt put myself through the planning part. He cancelled the morning of a flight to Niagra falls a few years ago. He had put off doing his bills at work all month and he said he had to get month end done and i should understand that work is important. I admit to holding on to resentment there and dont trust him to follow through.

Last year I got a business card holder from the dollar store, he even left the tag on it. "It was the thought that counted" - it had figures of animals on it and he knew I liked animals. It was also the only store open in our town in the afternoon of Xmas eve.

[eKatherine]

OMG How did you know! One year I got a rock inside a box (so i would think he bought me something) and the note said - good for one weekend getaway. I actually got excited and said when do you want to go? - he replied - well you plan it and I'll come. I have had him cancel out before at the last minute so didnt put myself through the planning part. He cancelled the morning of a flight to Niagra falls a few years ago. He had put off doing his bills at work all month and he said he had to get month end done and i should understand that work is important. I admit to holding on to resentment there and dont trust him to follow through.

Last year I got a business card holder from the dollar store, he even left the tag on it. "It was the thought that counted" - it had figures of animals on it and he knew I liked animals. It was also the only store open in our town in the afternoon of Xmas eve.

As birthday or Christmas gifts I used to get used appliances that people he worked for didn't want anymore, so they offered them to him instead of throwing them out.

We were supposed to go on a getaway together, but he was totally opposed to planning in advance, which would spoil the spontaneity of it. Came the time, and he had not put in for time off, figuring he would leave if they didn't need him, and guess what! They needed him and it didn't happen.

[Ursa Major]

Oh, you two, that's terrible. The used appliances remind me of the wedding 'gift' we got from my husband's parents. Because they bought themselves a new bedroom suite, we got their old double bed (complete with mattresses so old the stuffing was coming out in several spots) and the matching dressers. My husband to this day can't understand why I was upset! If they'd have thrown in a new set of mattresses, I'd have been very pleased, since they're expensive. But this 'gift' was an insult! And he won't even see it.

gfp, I ran out of time earlier. When I was talking of my husband having a heart of stone, I meant it. Here is a good example to illustrate my point (and I am sure this one example will quite suffice to allow you to understand):

Eight years ago somebody ran me off the road, and I crashed our van into a telephone pole. I had our second youngest with me, who was 12 at the time. She was buckled in (I insist on that), and was perfectly fine. I was slightly hurt and thought I was okay. I got out of the van, got out my first aid kit and bandaged and iced my cut and severely bruised knee (I hit the key and bent it so far out of shape it couldn't be extracted).

When the ambulance arrived, they put me on a stretcher, which was the moment I went into total shock. I was vomiting for hours, and eventually in the hospital they had to put me on an I.V. with gravol in it, to stop the vomiting and putting some fluids back into me.

They had called my husband (it takes him nearly two hours to come home from work), but it was several hours before he came. Apparently, he first found the van and looked at it, then went to see his favourite kid (our now 20-year-old daughter, who is just like him) to make really sure she was okay, and then he came to see me. In that order. He already knew that Janet was okay and had been released from the hospital a couple of hours earlier into the care of a friend, who the nurse had called for me.

Anyway, you would expect that he (if he was a loving husband) would say, "How are you, I was worried about you! Don't worry about the van, I am glad you and Janet are going to be fine, the van is easily replaceable!"

Well, guess again. His first words were, "Well, the van is a right off. I bet it was your fault and you could have prevented it, if you were a better driver." I wished he would have just left again, he was no comfort at all (he never is when I need somebody). I hated going home with him. It was the usual, of course, I had to look after myself, even though I was sick for days. I usually have to look after myself when sick. He might or might not bring me something. If he thinks about me, it often is after he has eaten, and if there are leftovers. It's a rare thing I get the food first, when it's still warm.

Then, when the insurance company paid us $13,000.00 for a new vehicle, he used the money for something else, saying he'll get a new one when he would get his grandmother's inheritence (who had died that year). When it came through a year later, he used that for something else again. It was three years before he bought another van (we live in the country without public transportation, and with my health issues, I might as well have been in jail, I was stuck). And then HE drove the van and gave me the old car, since, as he said, he wasn't taking the chance of me wrecking this nice new (used) van as well, since I am such a bad driver!

Well, I am an excellent driver. He, on the other hand, scares me to death when driving. When we drive somewhere long distance, I have to close my eyes and pretend to sleep, because otherwise I'd have to see how he drives, and it freaks me out. It's only by the grace of God he's never had any accidents. I've been in the car with him many times when he had close calls. Of course, it's always the other drivers fault!

You know, our pastor does appreciate my husband. He is the head of the missions department and of course, extremely dedicated and gets the job done. He does it all 'because the bible says so', not out of love, of course. The concepts of real, unconditional love, compassion, empathy and sympathy are foreign concepts to him. They don't mean a thing to him! I really, truly believe that he is incapable of any of those emotions.

My husband is a fanatical Christian. He ONLY reads the bible or Christian books that are supposed to either teach you how to evangelize better, or that 'build you up in Christ'. He thinks reading novels of any kind (even Christian novels) is a complete waste of time, and to be discouraged. The same of course goes for playing games, be it board games or especially computer games.

He has NEVER played with the kids when they were small, and maybe once a year after. He will preach at them for hours about what they should do to become better Christians. Heck, he'll preach at their friends! Of course, that's why they don't bring their friends home, he freaks them out.

Anyway, I am really at my wit's end, and I am not sure it's ever going to get better.

I realize I can't change him. And that unless he sees the need to change, he won't. I can only change myself, and I am learning and changing all the time.

Well, I think my son and his wife just came, so I better go.

[DingoGirl]

Ursula YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THIS MAN!!!! He is making me FURIOUS and I don't even know him!!!!!

Okay sorry for that angry outburst.....but this behavior is just outrageous and you deserve MUCH better!

[eKatherine]

Gosh, Ursula, for every story you tell I could match it. What memories this is bringing back...but I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I already have.