What About The Eucharist?

[debmidge]

Back to the original topic, from what I understand there's a website somewhere dedicated to Catholic Celiacs. I kind of remember this from the other thread about 6 mos ago about this topic, and boy was this talked to death then too. Perhaps the Catholic Church needs an "office" of the "Celiac Celebrant" in response to your gluten free diet concerns. I think this is a good suggestion to them. It should be headed by some officers of church and celiac laity. It would make guidelines and procedures uniform in each parish on how to handle celiac celebrants.

[CarlaB]

Back to the original topic, from what I understand there's a website somewhere dedicated to Catholic Celiacs. I kind of remember this from the other thread about 6 mos ago about this topic, and boy was this talked to death then too. Perhaps the Catholic Church needs an "office" of the "Celiac Celebrant" in response to your gluten free diet concerns. I think this is a good suggestion to them. It should be headed by some officers of church and celiac laity. It would make guidelines and procedures uniform in each parish on how to handle celiac celebrants.

This is probably a good idea since this will be a growing problem as more and more people are being diagnosed. Just look at the growth this forum has had in the past 6 months!

[Ashley]

Well when its only once a year that's probably ok,. Have you ever reacted to it?? B/c I have gone to a christian nondenominational church before and they gave you a little cracker like the ones you put in your clam chowder. really tiny.

Nope. I felt just fine after it. I know I didn't react because the tiny blood vains didn't burst like they do if I get into gluten badly (Just like I did last night, my ENTIRE face is covered in red dots.) I understand that it does damage, enough though I felt no pain. Like an oyster cracker? I forgot the offical name of the cracker we use.

-Ash

[2kids4me]

In post 25 on this thread, I relayed info - the church (ok, well Alberta) does have a policy and way of dealing with celiacs. When I contacted the Calgary Catholic Office of the Bishop. They had a policy in place and we use a separate chalice. perhaps if anyone had questions or suggestions, contact the nuns who have made it their goal for the past 10 years to make host that is acceptable to the church but safe for celiacs.

See post 25 (page 2 I believe) for the conact info. It sound sas if indiovidual priests may not be aware of the ploicies becasue they didnt bother to check it out (??) dont know as we never had a problem.

[debmidge]

well, I suppose it's time for a world-wide church policy which will make it uniform throughout the church. Official and published policy and someone in charge of it.

If there is a uniform policy right now then the message isn't getting thru and they need an office to promote it.

[CarlaB]

well, I suppose it's time for a world-wide church policy which will make it uniform throughout the church. Official and published policy and someone in charge of it.

If there is a uniform policy right now then the message isn't getting thru and they need an office to promote it.

I agree. However, practically speaking, most priests don't have to address the problem. In a parish of 12,000, I'm the only one right now that has said anything about special requirements. Of course, there may be others that I don't know about. It would be nice to be able to refer priests to the official policies since when visiting a new parish, things are a little more difficult than at the home parish. I've never not been able to receive if I get to Mass a little early and talk to the celebrant about my needs.

[tiredofdoctors]

Dear Bernice,

After reading your posts, and having been involved in a couple, I have come to the conclusion -- right or wrong -- that somewhere, or sometime in your life, you must have been horribly hurt by someone or something. When I read your posts, all I can read is pain. It makes my heart hurt for you. Whatever has happened in your life to cause you such pain, I wish had never happened, and am so sorry that it did.

In my experience, the people who cloak their messages in "honesty" or "humor" (I am guilty of that), are often the ones who are in the most pain. I read your posts and know that, if it were me that were posting those messages, I would be using humor -- making all laugh -- in hopes someone would recognize that I am actually hurting so badly.

I hope that your life comes to a point where you are able to heal from ANY hurts that have occurrred in it.

With regard to the posts on the forum at large, I think Wayne Dyer, PhD, said it best: "If you have to choose between being right and being kind, choose kind."

Hugs to ALL of you,

Lynne

[CarlaB]

Dear Bernice,

After reading your posts, and having been involved in a couple, I have come to the conclusion -- right or wrong -- that somewhere, or sometime in your life, you must have been horribly hurt by someone or something. When I read your posts, all I can read is pain. It makes my heart hurt for you. Whatever has happened in your life to cause you such pain, I wish had never happened, and am so sorry that it did.

In my experience, the people who cloak their messages in "honesty" or "humor" (I am guilty of that), are often the ones who are in the most pain. I read your posts and know that, if it were me that were posting those messages, I would be using humor -- making all laugh -- in hopes someone would recognize that I am actually hurting so badly.

I hope that your life comes to a point where you are able to heal from ANY hurts that have occurrred in it.

With regard to the posts on the forum at large, I think Wayne Dyer, PhD, said it best: "If you have to choose between being right and being kind, choose kind."

Hugs to ALL of you,

Lynne

Thanks Lynne, I hope you're not always feeling bad when you're making us all laugh! I enjoy your humor, so I hope some of it just comes naturally.

[tiredofdoctors]

Sadly, some of it just comes because I have a genetic predisposition to being a smart-aleck!!!! It's on BOTH chromosomes . . . . proven scientifically (almost). Sorry for the aside . . . . . Lynne

[DingoGirl]

May I ask if you are an American citizen? We have a little thing here called "free speech", which many people have sacrificed their lives for.

I was pondering this thread, and church tomorrow......and Bernice, we all know, of course, about freedom of speech.....what we don't appreciate is freedom to attack. This thread began as an honest and sincere discussion of the Eucharist, a searching for suggestions and coping, and you have come in to attack, and interject what amounts to mockery, really. It isn't appropriate at all in this arena. Enough said.

Karen and Lynne - very well-stated.

[angielackner]

I belong to an evangelical free church, and because there are about 5 of us in the church that are gluten-free...they decided to use rice crackers for the bread...you should have heard the loud "crunch" that occured the first time it was used...so funny! we all wait till everyone is served the bread to take it...but last i heard there had been no complaints about it! and the grape juice is gluten-free...they had me check on the gluten-free status of both before they used them...at first the office screwed up and bought garlic and herb flavored rice crackers...now that would have been funny to serve!

i think its too bad that the catholic faith doesnt allow for food allergies...werent there any allergies back in Christ's time?

angie

[cmom]

Unfortunately, man has warped many of the ideas that Jesus taught. I have seen this in every religion that I am familiar with. Some man in a high office of the church hands down decrees of what is acceptable. I believe God must shake his head at the misinterpretation of his laws. If I can't find a biblical basis for a church rule, I ignore it. I honestly do not believe God expects celiacs to partake of something harmful to them. Just my thoughts.

[DingoGirl]

i think its too bad that the catholic faith doesnt allow for food allergies...werent there any allergies back in Christ's time?

That's such an interesting question....but from what I've read and heard, our intolerances have developed as a result of over-processing, chemicals, leached nutrients from the soil, things like that and one of our resident scientists can answer this much more thoroughly and accurately than I. I think gluten-intolerance is a pretty recent thing, the last couple hundred years, when wheat became much more processed and everything's been taken out of it to make flour "white." I mean - look at Ezekial 4:9 - there is even a bread that goes by this name (which I used to love!), and that verse, and the instructions on making that bread, is from approx. 4,000 years ago.....

[Canadian Karen]

With the two countries with the most cases of celiac disease being Italy and Ireland, both with a huge Catholic population, I wonder how the Catholic church over there handles this? Especially Italy, who recognizes celiac disease enough to have every child screened for it......

It would be interesting to know.......

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Like most arguments in this world, there are valid points on both sides. Bernese was asked her opinion, and gave it. Then she was asked to explain it, and she did so honestly. I saw no malice in how she expressed herself.

But then there seemed to be an awful lot of posts (yes, complete with name-calling) attacking her for expressing that opinion. I may not agree with her opinion, but it was logical, and well-explained. There was also a distinct undercurrent of pain and bitterness, which some of you did pick up on. But I find it ureally disturbing how many responses to Bernice were downright vicious.

I realize that this is a thread having to do with Christianity, so maybe I have no right to be on here. But those of you who identify yourselves as Christian--and then blast anyone who seems to have strong beliefs that differ from your own--are you aware how bad you make Christianity look to some of us "on the outside?"

One of the teachings of Jesus that I admire is the change from the "eye for an eye" policy of the Old Testament. So you guys feel attacked by Bernese's opinion; are you really setting a good example by "attacking back?"

Maybe this would be a good time for us all to come together and add one more prayer--or good thought--for baby Megan.

[Ruth52]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Celiac Disease is so prevelent in Italy and other countries around southern Europe that children are routinely tested for celiac disease.

With a large proportion of the Italian community being Catholic coupled with the fact that Rome (Vatican City) is the headquarters of the Catholic Church, I would be surprised if there isn't some obscure Papal Ensyclicle somewhere that addresses the concerns of those who suffer from celiac disease.

[eKatherine]

That's such an interesting question....but from what I've read and heard, our intolerances have developed as a result of over-processing, chemicals, leached nutrients from the soil, things like that and one of our resident scientists can answer this much more thoroughly and accurately than I. I think gluten-intolerance is a pretty recent thing, the last couple hundred years, when wheat became much more processed and everything's been taken out of it to make flour "white." I mean - look at Ezekial 4:9 - there is even a bread that goes by this name (which I used to love!), and that verse, and the instructions on making that bread, is from approx. 4,000 years ago.....

According to dogtorj, celiac has been with us as long as humans have consumed cereal grains in any quantity, increasing during times when the gluten content of grains increased due to hybridization.

[ravenwoodglass]

According to dogtorj, celiac has been with us as long as humans have consumed cereal grains in any quantity, increasing during times when the gluten content of grains increased due to hybridization.

This is off the original topic but I have read, I think in Dangerous Grains, that archeological evidence shows that when humankind began consuming wheat within a generation or so the skeletal evidence has shown a decrease in stature and the sudden appearence of arthritic damage that was not present in the skeletons of 'hunt and gather' groups. Celiac has been around as long as we have been around. But the advent of bakeries and quick access to breads and pastries has caused an explosion of celiac disease that was not present before. When we as a culture went from having to spend a whole day making bread to being able to get it at a store cheaply we of course began consuming more and our illness became more pronounced. For the folks that grew up in poverty, myself included, bread was not just something you ate with a meal it often replaced a meal or was used as a 'filler'. Breakfast was just a piece of bread with a bit of peanut butter or some cinnamon, I was given it as a snack with sugar and butter cause it was cheaper than candy and a sandwich at my house was one slice of meat inside this poison. I ramble but anyway Celiac has been around as long as we have but the manner and frequency we consume gluten has increased a great deal, thus the severity of the illness has increased also. The insidious nature and delayed reaction of the gluten toxin simply makes it hard to pinpoint.

I also would be interested to find out what the celiacs that are Catholic do to handle the Eucharist question in other countries. Perhaps we have some European members who would know. Not long after my diagnosis I saw a National Geographic article about a 'Flour Festival' that they have in Spain where they throw colored wheat flour on everyone. Some of the people in the festival were wearing what looked like hasmat (sp?)or beekeepers outfits it took a minute to realize that these folks were the celiacs in the group.

[eKatherine]

This is off the original topic but I have read, I think in Dangerous Grains, that archeological evidence shows that when humankind began consuming wheat within a generation or so the skeletal evidence has shown a decrease in stature and the sudden appearence of arthritic damage that was not present in the skeletons of 'hunt and gather' groups. Celiac has been around as long as we have been around.

Similar changes have accompanied the switch from a hunter-gatherer economy to an agricultural one in North America, where the switch was to corn. Archeologists attribute the immediate decline in health to general malnutrition resulting from a diet seriously lacking in in nutrition.

[debmidge]

Many Catholics grew up in just those conditions, but many of us choose to make trials a learning experience and not use them as an excuse to hate. We don't all agree with each other but hard times are not a reason to promote prejudice they should be used to increase understanding.

Are you? We also have freedom of religion and a dislike for prejudice and hate.

I am very split on this discussion.....I would rather this thread not take this route, but I have to admit I have had the same experience as BERNICE.

It grieves me to have to explain this, but the word "Prejudice, " contrary to popular belief, does not mean fair criticism. It refers to having pre-conceived, untried opinions about something. It is the judging of something/someone before the facts are in; or, before you actually try something out.

It's been established that BERNICE had been involved in Catholicism and this is her un-prejudiced opinion. Prejudice would be the "irrational" hatred of another's religion and clearly BERNICE's opinion is based on her discernment of the matter.

But in the interest of keeping the peace, it's best not to reveal on this thread/board that you had a bad experience /or disagree with dogma in the Catholic denomination as it does not provide any edification, and actually starts bad feelings between the board members. So we ex-catholics should not reveal how we feel even though we have First Amendment right to do so. We're just better off "not going there" - that's all.

I hope Catholics find an answer to their communion issues within their church and hence my suggestion about the "Office of the Celiac Celebrant."

[CarlaB]

The Code of Canon Law in 1984 did address the celiac issue, somewhat. Since the main celebrant must consume both the bread and the wine (the con-celebrants can consume just the wine), the Code said in 1984 that celiac men cannot be ordained. Then it was adjusted to say that it should be seriously considered by the bishop whether they should be ordained since that person will always need to be a con-celebrant. Now, there are low-gluten hosts that are made from wheat starch. That is not accepted as freely in the US by celiacs, but my understanding is in Europe that they go more by ppm. So, a priest could partake of a small piece of the low-gluten host and still celebrate Mass without another priest being the main celebrant.

The issue of celiac lay people has not been addressed as far as I know since they may partake of the wine only. Since each parish has their own system for distributing communion, it would be up to the priest of the parish to decide how to handle the celiacs in his parish. The only issue I know that has been addressed is that the Church views receiving either the Host alone or the Cup alone to be receiving full communion.

My suggestion is, let's not discuss politics, the religion discussion seems to have put enough stress on the forum I do think some of the problems with the Church throughout the 50's and 60's has caused a lot of people who grew up during that time to have very ill feelings toward the Church. It's really sad and I'm very glad that the Church went through the changes of Vatican II. It seems to have been much needed. I think all of us have to look at ourselves periodically and say things like, I'm going to start working out again, or I'm going to quit eating so much garbage, etc. every so often. Every so many hundred years, the Church has had to do the same thing. That time period certainly was a time of trouble for the Church and I think it's a shame that instead of building the faith of the people, that the Church herself was responsible for destroying the faith of the people.

Fortunately, the past ten years or so, actually the Pontificate of John Paul II, has been a great time of renewal once again.

[NicoleAJ]

The post that follows relates to the actual question posed originally and is not intended as fodder for a debate.

Carla, I think that your idea of having a second chalice is a good one. Do they keep it on the side table or does it go on the altar as well? I used to receive the wine, but then we got a new priest that would break the host over the chalice and brush the crumbs from his fingers into the wine. I stopped receiving communion then and haven't received it since. Of course, in those cases I'd often feel awkward about sitting in the pew (while fit to receive the host, spiritually). Once, my friend's Irish parents were sitting next to me, and I explained to them before mass why I wouldn't be receiving the host. It was so sweet when a few months later my friend's mother sent me a newspaper clipping about the low-gluten hosts.

I don't have a strong relationship with this priest or parish (their politics sometimes get in the way of their theology, unfortunately), so this is why I'm not inclined to make special requests. But when I do move elsewhere in two years, I'll likely have more parishes around to choose from, and once I find one that I'm comfortable with, I'll likely try your second chalice method. Certainly, when I get married, I'll want to receive communion without wondering if I'll be suffering from cc at the reception.

[CarlaB]

The post that follows relates to the actual question posed originally and is not intended as fodder for a debate.

Carla, I think that your idea of having a second chalice is a good one. Do they keep it on the side table or does it go on the altar as well? I used to receive the wine, but then we got a new priest that would break the host over the chalice and brush the crumbs from his fingers into the wine. I stopped receiving communion then and haven't received it since. Of course, in those cases I'd often feel awkward about sitting in the pew (while fit to receive the host, spiritually). Once, my friend's Irish parents were sitting next to me, and I explained to them before mass why I wouldn't be receiving the host. It was so sweet when a few months later my friend's mother sent me a newspaper clipping about the low-gluten hosts.

I don't have a strong relationship with this priest or parish (their politics sometimes get in the way of their theology, unfortunately), so this is why I'm not inclined to make special requests. But when I do move elsewhere in two years, I'll likely have more parishes around to choose from, and once I find one that I'm comfortable with, I'll likely try your second chalice method. Certainly, when I get married, I'll want to receive communion without wondering if I'll be suffering from cc at the reception.

Most priests, no matter their politics, want everyone who is spiritually prepared to receive communion to be able to receive. I'm sure the priest in your parish would be happy to accomodate you even if you don't have a strong relationship. I've made this request when visiting parishes and the priests have been happy to accomodate me. But when visiting a parish, be sure to talk to the priest, the people who help set up for him are not always understanding and helpful.

The second chalice has to be on the altar for the wine to be consecrated. They leave it on the side table until the altar servers bring the gifts to the main altar. Even if they don't break the Host over the wine and brush the crumbs in it, which most priests seem to do, then they still put a small piece of the host in the main chalice.

[Lymetoo]

Boy, you leave for a few days and THIS happens!!

Chill out, folks!!

[Guest southgoingzax]

Off Topic, but...

"The first description of childhood and adult coeliac disease was written in the second half of the second century A.D. by a contemporary of the ancient Roman Physician, Galen. He is known as Aretaeus of Cappadocia and his writings which have survived to more recent times were edited and translated by Francis Adams and printed for the Sydenham Society in 1856". (This from a website The History of Coeliac Disease)

The symptoms of celiac disease have been recognized for centuries, just not the cure. This is in response to some of the posts regarding when celiac disease first came about. It is my understanding as an archaeologist that the genetic disposition for this disease has always existed in the human species (and perhaps some of those species that came before us). Following the agricultural revolution during the Neolithic (+/- 10,000 b.p.), the overall stature and health of human beings can be seen to decline. Problems such as arthritus, dental caries, and communal diseases also begin to show up in the archaeological record. Of course, as a hunter-gatherer, you would have been lucky to live to be 40, so some of these problems may be the result of more sedentary, therefore safer and longer, lifespans and higher population densities, which encourage the evolution and increase the spread-rate of contagious diseases. But certainly, malnutrition became an issue due to an over-reliance on a single protein source (such as wheat or corn).

Just some interesting info, if anyone was wondering.

zax