Glutened Through The Skin And By Paper Plates?

[sillyactsue]

I have been asking a lot of questions because for the life of me I can't get my daughter to grow. I talked to the nurse at enterolab and she said it can take a year for the body to adjust to the gluten free diet and start processing food properly. She also mentioned that if we use paper plates, paper towels and napkins in the kitchen they could contain wheat fiber. She mentioned that some people are so sensitive to gluten that they can absorb it through the skin and be affected by it. I knew that soaps, shampoos, lotions and such might get in your mouth on a microscopic level but I didn't know this about glutening through the skin. Because of the source of the info I believe it though. has anyone else heard of this?

[Nic]

I actually heard this is not true but it has been debated on this forum. I believe it was in the Parent section but am not sure.

Nicole

[queenofhearts]

Yes, there's a lot of debate on the skin absorption, but even if it doesn't work that way, there is always an issue (especially with children) that what touches the skin eventually might make its way to the mouth. I'm always careful about lotion & soap for that reason.

I think the paper issue is not so worrisome, though-- it was mainly the concern that if you use paper in the microwave, trace amounts might get into the food. Few products actually contain wheat. I know Bounty is safe, I checked since I do occasionally use it in the microwave or to wipe my mouth. The main concern is the glue that holds the towel to the roll, so I doubt napkins or plates would pose the problem.

Leah

[lovegrov]

Some paper manufacturers have said that the glue on the first and last sheets of a roll MIGHT have some wheat, but I've yet to hear of a paper plate, napkin, paper towel, or toilet paper with wheat. It's just not something you have to worry about.

I also don't believe you can absorb gluten through the skin. I can't present you with an authoritative study, but most if not all experts don't believe it can happen. The skin barrier is a tough thing to penetrate. That's why pharmaceutical and nicotine patches have to be specially engineered with a carrier designed to breech the barrier. I still would avoid gluten products because kids put things in the mouth.

richard

[gfp]

Yes, there's a lot of debate on the skin absorption, but even if it doesn't work that way, there is always an issue (especially with children) that what touches the skin eventually might make its way to the mouth. I'm always careful about lotion & soap for that reason.

I think the paper issue is not so worrisome, though-- it was mainly the concern that if you use paper in the microwave, trace amounts might get into the food. Few products actually contain wheat. I know Bounty is safe, I checked since I do occasionally use it in the microwave or to wipe my mouth. The main concern is the glue that holds the towel to the roll, so I doubt napkins or plates would pose the problem.

Leah

I agree....

We know lots of things are adsorbed through the skin .. everything from contraceptives, nicotine and various medications.... so far as I know noone has conculsive evidence it can't be.

My personal rule is "when in doubt, leave it out" and I have this for many reasons one of which is directly related to this.

A while ago I got increasingly ill. I really couldn't put my finger on it and went through every last thing I ate... it took weeks... hmm is this ketchup really gluten-free... hmm how about these tortilla chips... what about cutting out dairy again... etc. etc.

One night I returned home pretty much in tears after having a very embarassing incident in a local bar I knew.

I got home and had to jump in the shower ... (for reasons relating to the incident) and picked up the shower gel I'd been using since my soap ran out (it was an old Xmas present from an aunt and had been pushed back and back in the cupboard)

AND THERE IS WAS .... not even hidden but big letters on the front "Enriched with pure wheat protein"

[gfp]

I also don't believe you can absorb gluten through the skin. I can't present you with an authoritative study, but most if not all experts don't believe it can happen. The skin barrier is a tough thing to penetrate. That's why pharmaceutical and nicotine patches have to be specially engineered with a carrier designed to breech the barrier. I still would avoid gluten products because kids put things in the mouth.

richard

I also tend to think its not likely but .... there is always the chance of ingesting some not to mention skin creams etc. are all supposedly engineered to carry the "product" into the skin. Quite how much marketing hype this is I don't know.... but they add pro-vitamin this and extract of who knows what and sell it while claiming its dermatologically tested and aids adsorbtion, reduces aging and ..... OK I'm still waiting on this one is irresistable to the opposite sex..

[Helena]

I can't answer this question from the point of view with someone with celiac (just got my blood tests back last week--I'm new to all this) but on the skin absorption issue in general I'd say that powdery/dry wheat wouldn't get past the skin but that wheat in cosmetic products which are emulsified in oil could. People with allergies can definitely have contact reaction through contacting food residue . . . I myself wonder if I became sensitized to sesame through a skin care product. (My allergist confirmed that it is possible . . . but whether it happened in my case no one knows! I just know that I had a large itchy hive from sesame on the skin prick test.)

[elonwy]

I think the paper plate in the microwave thing is definitly an issue. I got lazy one night and nuked some stuff on a paper plate and got really sick. When you microwave stuff on a paper plate, it tends to stick, and I'm sure I probably ate some of the paper. I don't do that anymore. I've never had a problem with paper towels though.

Elonwy

[CarlaB]

I get rashes, blemishes, etc. when exposed to wheat topically. It might be a secondary allergy, or it might be from the gluten intolerance.

I sold cosmetics when I first "retired" from working full-time. They make all kinds of claims that things are absorbed through the skin. Obviously some things are. Whether gluten is or not, I don't know. I doubt whether the experts have done more than make an educated guess on it themselves ... at least I've never seen a study. We still have so much more to learn about gluten intolerance, I am avoiding touching gluten until further research is done.

I've even heard people go so far as to say we absorb too much chlorine through our skin ... who really knows?

[Guest Doll]

My understanding is that the gluten molecule is too big to be transdermal, or absorbed through the skin. Maybe if you denatured it with microwaves

Furthermore, gluten must be INGESTED to cause problems in a Celiac. Even people with DH need to have gluten ingested for a reaction, but their immune system attacks the surface of their skin as opposed to their intestines.

People with a wheat or true gluten allergy may have some sort of contact reaction, because it is a different immune response and different antibodies involved. It is possible to have an allergy PLUS Celiac, of course.

Some people worry about shampoo etc. but for most Celiacs, the chance of CC is very rare. For example, if you get shampoo in your mouth in the shower by accident, you are more than likely breathing and not eating something at the time. When you are breathing, there is a tiny flap of skin that flips over and covers your esophagus, so air is going into your lungs, not digestive system. You will also cough, so the chance of contamination is low, if any. If you wash your hands with gluten-free soap and rinse them after you shampoo, you should be fine. Most people with Celiac will eat off of a plate that has held a gluten containing item after it has been properly washed. Apply that to your hands.

It often takes awhile to fully heal, make sure gluten is not coming from contaminated kitchen countertops, medications, etc.

[gfp]

My understanding is that the gluten molecule is too big to be transdermal, or absorbed through the skin. Maybe if you denatured it with microwaves

Or its just pre broken down into smaller compenents?

Furthermore, gluten must be INGESTED to cause problems in a Celiac. Even people with DH need to have gluten ingested for a reaction, but their immune system attacks the surface of their skin as opposed to their intestines.

We are forgetting the strictly not celiac disease... blood brain transmission.... I know its not strictly celiac disease... but for many of us depresion and neuro symptoms can be the worst .. ( incl seizures)

[Guest Doll]

Or its just pre broken down into smaller compenents?

We are forgetting the strictly not celiac disease... blood brain transmission.... I know its not strictly celiac disease... but for many of us depresion and neuro symptoms can be the worst .. ( incl seizures)

Hey gfp...Well, the gluten molecule would not "break down" on its own, so I think it's safe to say that your favorite body cream, etc. if safe for most Celiacs, even if it has wheat.

It is true that there is transdermal technology that is used to allow once larger molecules to penetrate the skin. BUT as far as I know, this is only used for vitamins, peptides, etc. I have never heard of a product which has used this technology for gluten, as there is no benefit that I am aware of by allowing the amino acids from gluten into the skin. Furthermore, if gluten is broken down into individual amino acids, it is not toxic to Celiacs. It is because Celiacs let in WHOLE gluten protein which causes the reaction. I also think that type of immune response for Celiac MUST start in the intestine. Of course, this info does not apply to those with an allergic response.

I guess I should clarify that I include those with "neurological" Celiac and seizure disorders related to gluten exposure as "Celiacs". Usually those people have high levels of antibodies. Their bodies are letting in whole gluten, so they have the "leaky gut", but they seem to have (genetic?) protection from intestinal damage.

[lovegrov]

Skins creams and lotions ARE absorbed into the first layers of skin but they are NOT absorbed all the way into your body and bloodstream. That's not their purpose and that's not what they do. Can you imagine those products merrily amking their way through the bloodstream? I think not.

For gluten to even possibly affect you (and even then I have my doubts), it would have to be absorbed all the way through all layers and into the bloodstream.

richard

[queenofhearts]

I think much of this discussion ignores the likelihood of ingesting some of the product by mouth. I know I frequently touch my lips absent-mindedly when I'm thinking, so I'm very careful about the soaps & lotions I use. And lipstick & lip balm, of course! I don't worry about eye makeup, foot lotion, that sort of thing, except that I'm careful to wash my hands after applying them.

With kids I think all bets are off-- the young ones will put anything & everything in their mouths, so its easier on everyone if there is no gluten around to worry about.

[sillyactsue]

Thanks everyone,

at least now I can breathe a little easier when changing her disposable diaper. Well........for the most part . My next would have been about diapers and wipes butt I think we've got that covered too. Well.........usually.

Doll, or anyone else. What is this about protection from intestinal damage? Aimee doesn't have the gene for celiac. But she has two copies of the gene for gluten sensitivity. She didn't show any malabsorbtion problems when enterolab tested her stool. But she isn't growing, I'm told, because her immune system is using up her calories to make antibodies. I would love to have more input on this.

Thanks,

Gloria(sillyactsue)

[gfp]

Hey gfp...Well, the gluten molecule would not "break down" on its own, so I think it's safe to say that your favorite body cream, etc. if safe for most Celiacs, even if it has wheat.

It is true that there is transdermal technology that is used to allow once larger molecules to penetrate the skin. BUT as far as I know, this is only used for vitamins, peptides, etc. I have never heard of a product which has used this technology for gluten, as there is no benefit that I am aware of by allowing the amino acids from gluten into the skin. Furthermore, if gluten is broken down into individual amino acids, it is not toxic to Celiacs. It is because Celiacs let in WHOLE gluten protein which causes the reaction. I also think that type of immune response for Celiac MUST start in the intestine. Of course, this info does not apply to those with an allergic response.

I guess I should clarify that I include those with "neurological" Celiac and seizure disorders related to gluten exposure as "Celiacs". Usually those people have high levels of antibodies. Their bodies are letting in whole gluten, so they have the "leaky gut", but they seem to have (genetic?) protection from intestinal damage.

Furthermore, if gluten is broken down into individual amino acids, it is not toxic to Celiacs.

Obviously not but the question is how long a chain in a specific sequence needs to be left.

As you know gluten is composed of two protein components, gliadin and glutamines.

Glutamines are almost certainly absorbable across most semi-permeable surfaces... most notably it is the only protein which in normal people crosses the blood-brain barrier.

If you compare the sequences from horedin, secalin and gliadin it is only a few chains long..if you knock out the non alpha gliadin then the commonailty is in a few sequences.

[Guest Doll]

Obviously not but the question is how long a chain in a specific sequence needs to be left.

As you know gluten is composed of two protein components, gliadin and glutamines.

Glutamines are almost certainly absorbable across most semi-permeable surfaces... most notably it is the only protein which in normal people crosses the blood-brain barrier.

If you compare the sequences from horedin, secalin and gliadin it is only a few chains long..if you knock out the non alpha gliadin then the commonailty is in a few sequences.

Glutamine may cross the BBB, as do other things, but I am not aware of it being able to be absorbed transdermally. So, in short, if it cannot be absorbed through the skin, there is no chance of it reaching the BBB unless ingested.

I am willing to accept contraindicating evidence, of course, but this is my understanding.

[daffadilly]

sillyactsue, Ithink for one thing you are going to find that you will have to have your whole house gluten free. If not everytime someone touches the baby she will get cross contaminated. If you want to you could sit her in the kitchen & cook with some wheat flour & report back if she gets sick that day , according to some she will not. But according to what happens to me & others that i know - we get sick.

Doll, you could wash your hair in shampoo that contains wheat & use that gel that has wheat in it for the next 40 years & report back to us if you have any hair left.

I guess if someone with celiac works in a bakery that according to you that they will not get sick. Well I disagree, but then again I just use common sense & do not have the benefit of the science for all the little details.

[Guest Doll]

sillyactsue, Ithink for one thing you are going to find that you will have to have your whole house gluten free. If not everytime someone touches the baby she will get cross contaminated. If you want to you could sit her in the kitchen & cook with some wheat flour & report back if she gets sick that day , according to some she will not. But according to what happens to me & others that i know - we get sick.

Doll, you could wash your hair in shampoo that contains wheat & use that gel that has wheat in it for the next 40 years & report back to us if you have any hair left.

I guess if someone with celiac works in a bakery that according to you that they will not get sick. Well I disagree, but then again I just use common sense & do not have the benefit of the science for all the little details.

My shampoo probably DOES have wheat. I only use salon brands, and I'm not switching, so I never checked. I also wear MAC makeup. My lipgloss is Lancome (gluten-free of course), but I'm sure my other MAC cosmetics are not all gluten-free.

I have Celiac, I do not have a wheat allergy (and one that is skin contact based) so why would I react to topical gluten? I would have to ingest it. You obvioulsy have an allergy. Do you develop welts and itching, etc?

I have never lost hair from shampoo. Why would that happen? Many people with Celiac have nutrient deficiencies, malnourishment, or autoimmune thyroid disease, all of which can cause hair loss.

[gfp]

Glutamine may cross the BBB, as do other things, but I am not aware of it being able to be absorbed transdermally. So, in short, if it cannot be absorbed through the skin, there is no chance of it reaching the BBB unless ingested.

I am willing to accept contraindicating evidence, of course, but this is my understanding.

So far as I know any evidence is with the cosmetics co's.... and unlikely to leave ...

But the real point is in absense to the contrary I prefer not to take risks.

I don't think gluten is adsorbed... certainly not as whole molecule but ....

well here is the oppostie perspective

Open Original Shared Link

The Web site also claims, "Amino acids are rapidly absorbed in the blood stream..." At the very least, this is a typo, and should read "absorbed by the blood stream," but even then the quote neglects half the story. I have no doubt whatsoever that Amino acids are speedily absorbed into the bloodstream through the walls of the digestive tract, but I have many doubts as to whether the same can be said about absorbtion through the skin.

Not to put too fine a point on it but 15 yrs ago it was absolutely certain that PCB's cannot be absorbed through skin.

I can't really say much more because of confidentiality but suffice to say my ex did absorb them as did her lab assistant and this was through very limited contact.

My point about gluten containing body creams and all-over gels is they are given a huge surface area so even if the uptake is very low its a huge area. Secondly permeability is increased after heat/hot baths etc. just when we use these products and thirdly cuts and abrasions also allow a more direct method.

The bottom line is for me still "noone has proven otherwise"

[Guest Doll]

So far as I know any evidence is with the cosmetics co's.... and unlikely to leave ...

But the real point is in absense to the contrary I prefer not to take risks.

I don't think gluten is adsorbed... certainly not as whole molecule but ....

well here is the oppostie perspective

Open Original Shared Link

Not to put too fine a point on it but 15 yrs ago it was absolutely certain that PCB's cannot be absorbed through skin.

I can't really say much more because of confidentiality but suffice to say my ex did absorb them as did her lab assistant and this was through very limited contact.

My point about gluten containing body creams and all-over gels is they are given a huge surface area so even if the uptake is very low its a huge area. Secondly permeability is increased after heat/hot baths etc. just when we use these products and thirdly cuts and abrasions also allow a more direct method.

The bottom line is for me still "noone has proven otherwise"

For sure. It's a comfortability issue. Some people feel that if their house is 100% gluten-free in every shape or form, it's one less thing to worry about. And that is probably a good thing, especially for kids. And if you obviously react to topical gluten (allergy etc.), of course don't use those products!!!!! I'm still pretty certain that gluten must be absorbed whole through the intestines to cause a reaction though.

There is a way to check....if you do not seem to react to your current favorite topical gluten containing products and don't want to give them up, continue to use them and schedule an antibody blood test follow up. If your results are negative and you are symptom free (while on the gluten-free diet, of course), you should be ok!

I think though that for the majority of people, they don't have to replace their favorite products. It's an individual choice of course, but I think that the current science points to topical products as one less thing to worry about for the majority of people.

[Guest Doll]

My shampoo probably DOES have wheat. I only use salon brands, and I'm not switching, so I never checked. I also wear MAC makeup. My lipgloss is Lancome (gluten-free of course), but I'm sure my other MAC cosmetics are not all gluten-free.

I have Celiac, I do not have a wheat allergy (and one that is skin contact based) so why would I react to topical gluten? I would have to ingest it. You obvioulsy have an allergy. Do you develop welts and itching, etc?

I have never lost hair from shampoo. Why would that happen? Many people with Celiac have nutrient deficiencies, malnourishment, or autoimmune thyroid disease, all of which can cause hair loss.

I also want to add that if I DID develop symptoms from gluten being absorbed, I would get intestinal damage and other "glutening" symptoms, NOT hair loss. There is an autoimmune disorder called alopecia, in which the immune system destroys the hair follicles. That is more common in Celiacs. Maybe this is what you are thinking of. It is not related to gluten.

[daffadilly]

Re topical gluten & the skin barrier, in science it all goes well, but in reality the people that I know have conditions with their skin barrier that put holes in it, such as, miscellaneous cuts & scrapes, mosquito bites that have been scratched, various hives & rashes, pimples, boils, paper cuts, fresh surgery scars, shingle hives that burst, and dry chapped cracked skin on hands and lips, to name a few.

[Guest Doll]

Re topical gluten & the skin barrier, in science it all goes well, but in reality the people that I know have conditions with their skin barrier that put holes in it, such as, miscellaneous cuts & scrapes, mosquito bites that have been scratched, various hives & rashes, pimples, boils, paper cuts, fresh surgery scars, shingle hives that burst, and dry chapped cracked skin on hands and lips, to name a few.

Again, the body will not let in whole gluten through these means. Remember it is the letting in of a whole foreign protein that causes the reaction in Celiacs.

If gluten could be absorbed through the skin, then EVERYONE, Celiac or not would be having violent reactions to topical gluten if they had cuts in their hands, since gluten is not supposed to be absorbed whole! Any protein absorbed whole (Gluten, Casein, etc.) will cause a severe immune reaction!

Since everyone else and most Celiacs do not react to topical gluten, I maintain it is not an issue for most.

Again, it sounds like you have an allergy alongside Celiac. This is another issue. I would also make sure that you are not getting products on your hands, which can be transferred to food, as someone else suggested.

[IMResident]

GFP,

Proteins/amino acids and large molecules are unable to cross the skin. Only very small molecules which are hydrophobic can cross the skin. Proteins and amino acids are large and for the most part hydrophilic. DDT and other pesticides are designed in such a way as to be small and hydrophobic and can definitely cross the skin.

glutamine is an amino acid not a protein. It's a special amino acid that crosses the BBB because glutamine is used for the production of neurotransmitters like epinephrine, and dopamine. As far as I know most other amino acids and definitely proteins do no cross the BBB.

I would definitely not worry about gluten crossing the skin, even through the use of cometics or shampoos.