What If...

[Guest Doll]

Wow this is a long topic I wish it were possible to sum it all up into some simple points... and its covered so much. I think Dr's. do just send a patient home with an Rx because in most cases patients won't/can't lose weight. I can't tell you how many people I know that have been told, either lose weight and take no blood pressure meds or take the meds, and they don't even stop to think about it, they just head off to the drug store to get the Rx.

Our paper recently did a series on being overweight and when I was young the number one health problem world wide in regards to eating/nutrition was starvation, much of the world did not get enough to eat. Now the number 1 world wide issue related to eating is the exact opposite, health problems caused by obesity. (yes I know people are still starving in various places but its not the foremost food related health issue). In just 20 years or so its turned around 180 degrees.

The world is just overweight and its getting worse every day. And many of those overweight people have health issues that would turn around if they were at a normal weight and even if the doctor doesn't say so, they can't pick up a newspaper or magazine today without knowing that, but do most of them lose weight, nope. I'm not sticking up for doctors believe me... it took me 11 years and a few doctors switches and tons of specialists to get a Celiac diagnosis but when it comes to weight, if telling someone they'd be healthier if they lost weight would do the trick we wouldn't have this issue.

On another issue this topic touched on.... I did some quick research and Asians do have celiac disease. I'm not going to debate the issues of genetics for a few reasons... first being I don't know much about it so what I say wouldn't count for much, and number 2 unless you are a geneticist (a friend of mine is) I'm not sure I'd buy what you say either, I do know its a pretty complicated subject. However again from the research I did Asians have celiac and it makes me wonder if they were as wheat eating as Americans would their incidence of Celiac be just like ours, rice is the major staple of their diets for now (thats changing too).

So are you all saying they can't get it due to genetic factors (that doesn't seem right since they do get it) or that because they don't eat a lot of wheat they don't get symptoms and its not diagnosed as much.

I'm sorry I'm simplifing so much but not all of us are scientists! (now if we talk about finance and the stock market I'll give you a run for your money).

Susan

Hold on! I didn't say (or mean to imply) that Asians CAN'T get Celiac, but rather those with Celiac have a specific HLA type found generally in Northern Europeans. As I explained, an Asian CAN have that HLA type, but it would usually be due to having an ancestor of Northern European descent SOMEWHERE down the line.

There also may be different genetics involved for non-caucasians that we are only beginning to discover or that I am unaware of. If you look though, statistically cases of Type 1 diabetes and Celiac are still very rare in Asians. In fact, studies have shown they many have protective HLA types from these diseases. You can ask your geneticist friend on this.

They may not eat a lot of wheat, but they may eat oats, rye, and barley, etc. all toxic to Celiacs. There are many other gluten based products like Spelt, etc. that may be in ethnic diets. I am personally not sure, but there must be an Asian person on this board that knows.

As for genetics, I plan to complete my undergrad degree with that in mind, so I am not 100% guessing. Of course your friend may know more, but I am willing to bet he will agree with everything (or mostly everything) I have said so far. Of course I am always open to new scientific data, so please inform me if I am wrong. I have only completed 1 year of my BSc. and have transferred to an intensive pre-med program.

I totally agree on what you said about people not taking personal initiative for their health.

I also now know who to ask when I need to buy stock!

On another note, I know that this is not the correct forum to state this, but I personally believe that more of us should stop complaining about doctors and BECOME (Celiac-knowledgeable) doctors if they want to make a change.

Complaining will not change the world as much as doing something about it yourself.

The point is ranitidine was beneficial but it was also engineered NOT to cure.

It is designed as a drug to be dependant upon.

The reason it became the worlds best selling drug was marketing....

They put it in a different colored packet....they targetted a disorder that is found in a large number of the population etc. etc.

and when someone came up with a cure they did everything possible including threats and bribary to prevent the cure being accepted.

This is not a conspiracy theory, it is well documented.

i found an interesting read here

Open Original Shared Link

There is a whole conspiracy side to this which I didn't bring up in that apparently (and according to Austrailian intellegence services) glaxo actually hired people to intimidate Warren and Mitchell ... to phone them and tell them they are watching their kids and make threats on their lives...

This however it is still in the realms of conspiracy theory.

This is another issue not related to my original post, or Celiac.

I'm not saying I disagree or agree, just that it doesn't address my original stance on why AT-1001 may HELP Celiacs. Also, there is still research going on at Celiac Research Centres to find a permanent "cure" for Celiac. I don't disagree that a drug to maintain may be more lucrative than a cure, but they could charge $500, 000 for those who could afford the cure, still making the same profit off them as a lifetime of drugs.

I think the real problem is that many researchers are...well...stupid and illogical.

In the words of Chris Rock..."We can't even cure athlete's foot!!!".

[Guest Doll]

Doll, I could point you to a bunch of people that have gotten off or reduced dramatically their drugs for managing their Type II through diet. There's a support forum I frequent where this story is played out time and time again.

When did I ever disagree with this????? I totally think MOST people with Type 2 CAN be helped with diet and exercise. Sadly, many people are too lazy to do it. Of course you can! In fact, I posted a statement saying that there are hundreds of medical journals saying the same thing. We have healthy living commercials, articles, books directed at the general public. So why are so many people still not doing it? The problem is NOT doctors, in most cases.

All I said was that people who have neglected themselves for so long may have no real beta function left to work with (glucose is toxic to beta cells as is insulin resistance) and MAY need external insulin, meds etc. to prevent dangerous blood sugars. I said MAY. Often many people who present with heart attacks and strokes etc. are diagnosed with diabetes only when they come into the ER for treatment of their acute heart disease, influenced by undiagnosed Type 2 diabetes. These people have lived so unhealthily for so long that the damage is done.

There is too much knowledge out there for people to not know how to prevent Type 2 on their own. If they are getting unnecessary drugs, it is probably because they choose them.

I think you misunderstand, we are on the same page.

The point is even worse.

Dr.s are now choosing not to tell diabetics to contro sugar or lose weight (depending I or II)

Its already been decided that screening downs kids is not worth it because of the inconvienience and "cost" of a gluten-free diet...

asthmatics in the US are being denied certain drugs because they are taken though inhalers and are instead given IV solutions due to the large fund paying to stop inhaler products being legislated even though the same drugs are available in europe in inhaler form

ADHD kids are given ritalin like candy..

I could go on but....

Actually this is wrong. Intensive treatment of BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 is being pushed hard, because we know it can prevent complications and expensive utilization of healthcare dollars.

In fact, that is why so many doctors prescribe DRUGS (the topic) to Type 2's, so they can lower their damaging high blood sugar levels faster, sooner, and more efficiently.

An interesting perspective and I largely mostly agree.

However... I think the problem is also that MD's talk to people as if they are idiots.

Last time I saw one Dr. (for anti-histamines) she asked me how I was and I said not so good because I'd been glutened and she asks if I had eaten a cake or something by mistake.

I mean do I look that stupid? I guess so....

Wheras she has the arrogance to display her certificates on the wall and be addressed Dr. I don't bother because practically everyone I work with has a doctorate and even putting it on a business card would be extremely pretentious.

If Dr's spoke to patients like adults instead of like learning challenged children then some of the patients might take more notice.

LOL! OMG! That is so funny!! Well, I guess not really, but....

My doctor also said "Well you didn't tell me you had panic attacks from a slice of bread", not realizing that gluten is in everything, and can affect you immediately or NOT. Doh!

My doctor also sucks. Some are good, some are bad.

I think that some Dr.s talk to patients as children because of the thread topic. Some patients are NOT smart or knowledgeable, and for example, need to actually be told over and over again that healthy living can prevent Type 2 diabetes.

You are lumping all dietary and lifestyle changes in together as if they are all equal. They are not. To go on a celiac diet, replacing your favorite foods with others of equivalent nutritional value, is an order of magnitude easier than going on a diet, taking off weight, and keeping it off. Only 2% of the people who try to lose weight reach their goal and maintain it. The body is not designed to go on a starvation diet and stay on it for the rest of your life. People get hungrier and hungrier, and eventually they break down, start eating, and gain all the weight back.

Now you can say that the numbers show that 98% of the people who need to have made the "choice" not to ignore their hunger for the rest of their lives, but the numbers show that medical science hasn't figured out what to do with obese people beyond giving them a diet that will probably fail and then passing judgment on them when it does.

If they offered you a treatment that had a 2% chance of success, would you take that as good evidence that you should have that treatment?

Very good and profound point. I guess I should make it clearer that those with Type 2 can see positive effects with a healthy diet and exercise alone, even if weight loss doesn't occur. Also, I think even a 1% drop in body weight can have significant affects, according to some studies.

[pixiegirl]

I never suggested any starvation diets and I don't think you need to go on one to lose weight, I lost 25 lbs and have kept it off and i just changed my portion sizes and exercised more. Do I think this will work for everyone? Nope, but I do think that most of dieting is willpower, yes some people have hormonal disorders and other medical conditions that make it far more difficult for them to lose weight, but I did it when I was over 45 and certainly my metabolism has changed a lot. I'm not trying to pretend I have the answer for everyone... I hate when people start jumping on me, I'm just thinking outloud here... I was just saying that the reason so many doctors don't push diet is that most people can't do it for whatever reasons.

I'm not sticking up for either group I'm just making some observations. I agree that it is hard to lose weight and keep it off and since sticking to a gluten-free diet appears to me to be easier then dieting to lose weight and keeping it off and so many people can't even stick to a gluten-free diet, I was just making the point that that is probably why so many doctors just offer the Rx, they get frustrated with people not trying. I'm not saying either group is right or has it easy, etc. Again just an observation.

Susan

[gfp]

2% of the people who try to lose weight reach their goal and maintain it

As I have said before this is a absolutely negative attitude.

I could easily say 98% of people who do a gluten free diet do not maintain it.

If people set an unrealistic goal 25% below their ideal weight then sure most people will not attain it and those who do will find it difficult to maintain.

However if you set a realistic goal able to walk then 98% of people could maintain an ideal weight plus or minus a few pounds if they really wanted to and beleive it is possible.

If you start off thinking its impossible then it will be impossible.

As i have said before I know 2 people (but I now remember a third) who have started off by being clinically obese and have been told by their Dr's that they cannot lose weight and all threee lost over 50% of their body weight.

One has maintained this for 16 years, another for 10 (the one I forgot) and one for 5 yrs. Each of these had been categorically told by their Dr. it was not possible, they had slow metabolisms etc. and did so not only without any medical aid but also against medical advice. One had to have surgery to have his spare skin removed ...

I also know hundreds of people who have lost weight and kept it off even if from time to time they gain a few pounds. If you want to disqualify them for going a pound over their goal a few weeks every few years then I guess that is possible...

The point is you need to be prepared to make lifestyle changes.

If you are not willing to quit your job then you don't really want to lose weight.

2-3 three above both quit their jobs as part of losing weight...

My friend John had a deskjob which he quit in favour of a job which involved being outside walking 8 hours a day. His old job was a civil servant working for a highways dept and he quit this and took a job witho another highways dept where his job was to walk the streets looking for dangerous trips, pot holes etc. and note and mark them for maintainance. The other, my friends girlfriend quit a job in a stock exchange and took a job as a self employed mobile language teacher and walked between jobs. The third was lucky enough to work for a company that encouraged heathy living in its staff and gave her support.

I myself took a job in security with the same company from working in a research lab and from this I managed to then get into the training for the security personnel.

A large percentage of the "security personnel" are auditors or computer techs, not the heathiest people to start off with but due to the paramilitary nature of the company they all have to undergo a tough physical and a lot of survival and fitness training. I used my martial arts background to get a job doing the physical training for a while...

Most people only request security for money... the pay is usually over double the normal salary by the time you add danger pay and different allowances. Very few of them didn't make the physical and very few of them put weight back on while working for the active security in 3rd world countries. Very few of them quit either because by the time you make the descision to do a job where you expect to be shot at or have landmines you have to be pretty commited.

Quite a few bought the house they had saved for or whatever thier financial reason to get shot at on a regular basis and went back to desk jobs and yes, some of them put weight back on because they had reverted to the previous lifestyle. However significant numbers went back the a desk job and continued doing an active life and watching what they eat.

I never suggested any starvation diets and I don't think you need to go on one to lose weight, I lost 25 lbs and have kept it off and i just changed my portion sizes and exercised more. Do I think this will work for everyone? Nope, but I do think that most of dieting is willpower, yes some people have hormonal disorders and other medical conditions that make it far more difficult for them to lose weight, but I did it when I was over 45 and certainly my metabolism has changed a lot. I'm not trying to pretend I have the answer for everyone... I hate when people start jumping on me, I'm just thinking outloud here... I was just saying that the reason so many doctors don't push diet is that most people can't do it for whatever reasons.

I'm not sticking up for either group I'm just making some observations. I agree that it is hard to lose weight and keep it off and since sticking to a gluten-free diet appears to me to be easier then dieting to lose weight and keeping it off and so many people can't even stick to a gluten-free diet, I was just making the point that that is probably why so many doctors just offer the Rx, they get frustrated with people not trying. I'm not saying either group is right or has it easy, etc. Again just an observation.

I agree completely....

[eKatherine]

On another note, I know that this is not the correct forum to state this, but I personally believe that more of us should stop complaining about doctors and BECOME (Celiac-knowledgeable) doctors if they want to make a change.

Hardly any of us could reasonably consider this, which does not mean we cannot reasonably observe and make judgments.

I never suggested any starvation diets and I don't think you need to go on one to lose weight,

Susan

I'm not sure how you are defining "starvation diet", but the fact is that the body will interpret any extreme loss of weight as "starvation", not as "reaching goals" - goal you may have considered after doing research. One woman I know lost most of her hair after losing 125 pounds on Weight Watchers, which is considered a sensible diet. My own father lost 100 pounds, and is now forgetful and living in an assisted living facility. He did this on a diet that my mother and his doctor thought was great. Coincidence? Maybe. But losing a lot of weight is stressful on the body, which will try desperately to maintain the present weight.

The fact that a person might be healthier if they happened to be at a very much lower weight does not affect the fact that the process of losing that weight can be unhealthy.

[Guest Doll]

Hardly any of us could reasonably consider this, which does not mean we cannot reasonably observe and make judgments.

I'm not sure how you are defining "starvation diet", but the fact is that the body will interpret any extreme loss of weight as "starvation", not as "reaching goals" - goal you may have considered after doing research. One woman I know lost most of her hair after losing 125 pounds on Weight Watchers, which is considered a sensible diet. My own father lost 100 pounds, and is now forgetful and living in an assisted living facility. He did this on a diet that my mother and his doctor thought was great. Coincidence? Maybe. But losing a lot of weight is stressful on the body, which will try desperately to maintain the present weight.

The fact that a person might be healthier if they happened to be at a very much lower weight does not affect the fact that the process of losing that weight can be unhealthy.

First of all, I want to point out that that I am not disagreeing with you. I respect your opinions and observations.

You are right that the body does have a "set point". But often if a person is obese (for example 150 LBS overweight) and it is not due to a medical condition (undiagnosed hypothyroid, etc.) there is normally some element of poor eating or lack of activity. It is true that some are naturally large. But that doesn't mean it is healthy for your heart, liver (fatty liver disease), insulin levels, or joints. Those people especially should make sure they try to stick to a healthy diet for the sake of their health. And this is what I said. Even if you can't lose weight, a healthy diet and exercise can go a long way to help those with Type 2, and even prevent it.

I also have seen many cases where a person said that they already ate healthy and "couldn't" lose weight, and then when threatened with insulin injections they actually did. This is just a general comment. I understand that it can be hard to lose weight, that is why I am stressing healthy living. In a lot of people, they will find that they will lose weight from just cleaning up their diet and moving more.

I do agree that losing an insane amount of weight quickly can be unhealthy. Most doctors recommend a max of 2 pounds a week. Was your father on a supervised medical weightloss plan? Or did the doctor (wrongly) just tell him to "lose 100 Lbs"?

I am not sure if that ties in to his dementia. It's hard to say if he lost weight so quickly because he was already unable to care for himself. As you know, being overweight can cause pre-diabetes (Type 2). People even with pre-diabetes have an increased rate of dementia, strokes, and heart disease. That damage would have started years before symptoms came about. There is even studies that say Alzheimer's is a TYPE 3 diabetes, they have found a lack of insulin/insulin resistance in the brain that seems to be a possible cause. Do a search on the web if anyone is interested. They have found that overweight people and Type 2 diabetics have higher rates of dementia also simply because high glucose (and blood fats) affect the blood vessels in the brain.

Hehe..according to this board, there are many people who think it doesn't take much to become an MD

Seriously though, there ARE many young (and younger at heart people people on this board that still could go into medicine. There are people here with BSc. degrees, or that are going back to school. You can encourage your children with Celiac to go into the field.

If Medicine is not your thing, become a Registered Dietitian. There are many clueless dietitians out there, not just MD's!!!

I'm just saying that we can do more than we think. There are thousands that read this board each day. It would really change the medical field and help people, which is what we all want to do, regardless.

[eKatherine]

First of all, I want to point out that that I am not disagreeing with you. I respect your opinions and observations.

You are right that the body does have a "set point". But often if a person is obese (for example 150 LBS overweight) and it is not due to a medical condition (undiagnosed hypothyroid, etc.) there is normally some element of poor eating or lack of activity. It is true that some are naturally large. But that doesn't mean it is healthy for your heart, liver (fatty liver disease), insulin levels, or joints. Those people especially should make sure they try to stick to a healthy diet for the sake of their health. And this is what I said. Even if you can't lose weight, a healthy diet and exercise can go a long way to help those with Type 2, and even prevent it.

The issue is that all of the bad choices we can point to - lack of exercise, eating lots of snacks, etc., don't add up to that extra weight. Not exercising doesn't make someone put on 100 pounds, and starting an exercise program will only result in the loss of a few pounds. It's as though there is a trigger, as with celiac, and we don't know what it is that sets weight out of control.

I do agree that losing an insane amount of weight quickly can be unhealthy. Most doctors recommend a max of 2 pounds a week. Was your father on a supervised medical weightloss plan? Or did the doctor (wrongly) just tell him to "lose 100 Lbs"?

I am not sure if that ties in to his dementia. It's hard to say if he lost weight so quickly because he was already unable to care for himself. As you know, being overweight can cause pre-diabetes (Type 2). People even with pre-diabetes have an increased rate of dementia, strokes, and heart disease. That damage would have started years before symptoms came about. There is even studies that say Alzheimer's is a TYPE 3 diabetes, they have found a lack of insulin/insulin resistance in the brain that seems to be a possible cause. Do a search on the web if anyone is interested. They have found that overweight people and Type 2 diabetics have higher rates of dementia also simply because high glucose (and blood fats) affect the blood vessels in the brain.

"Supervised medical weight loss plan"? My mother thought he should get thin, and put him on a semivegetarian fat-free diet that was composed mostly of wheat and skim milk, even though he had lactose intolerance and digestive issues his whole life. She found a doctor who agreed that it would be a good idea for an 80 year old man to lose 100 pounds in a year.

All his life he has had extremely low cholesterol, which Japanese research has shown (sorry, no citation) will make a person tend to have strokes if they are on a cholesterol-lowering diet.

My father was as mentally sharp as he had been all his life until after he lost the weight, and there was no time until quite recently when he was "unable to care for himself". First he stopped telling stories, then became forgetful, then Parkinson's, and after that became unsteady and had several falls.

[Guest Doll]

The issue is that all of the bad choices we can point to - lack of exercise, eating lots of snacks, etc., don't add up to that extra weight. Not exercising doesn't make someone put on 100 pounds, and starting an exercise program will only result in the loss of a few pounds. It's as though there is a trigger, as with celiac, and we don't know what it is that sets weight out of control.

"Supervised medical weight loss plan"? My mother thought he should get thin, and put him on a semivegetarian fat-free diet that was composed mostly of wheat and skim milk, even though he had lactose intolerance and digestive issues his whole life. She found a doctor who agreed that it would be a good idea for an 80 year old man to lose 100 pounds in a year.

All his life he has had extremely low cholesterol, which Japanese research has shown (sorry, no citation) will make a person tend to have strokes if they are on a cholesterol-lowering diet.

My father was as mentally sharp as he had been all his life until after he lost the weight, and there was no time until quite recently when he was "unable to care for himself". First he stopped telling stories, then became forgetful, then Parkinson's, and after that became unsteady and had several falls.

I am sorry to hear about your father. I know this can be a heated issue, and I can understand why your are upset. Rightfully so.

I guess it's hard to sort out a "normal" aging process from disease, or other factors. I don't think anyone can really ever fully explain what happened 100%.

As for what leads to the extra weight in some cases...I think it is our consumption of processed food and trans fats. They may directly be a double whammy as inflammatory producing items and large amounts of excess calories. I believe that trans fats can be a possible cause of insulin resistance and thus subsequent weight gain. It starts a very dangerous cycle. Also, most people really do grossly underestimate what they eat. Back in the day people ate smaller portions of wholesome unprocessed foods, and worked doing physical labor all day. People NEED to use common sense and avoid most processed foods. It comes back to healthy choices. People should not be eating that crap in the first place.

People with Type 2 (actually a lot of the population) have "thrifty" genes that make them retain weight easily. It was necessary for survival in periods of starvation. That doesn't mean people have no choice in keeping their weight down, it means they must work hard and use common sense.

I think that most people who REALLY ate brown rice, baked salmon, olive oil, beans, veggies, lentils, nuts,etc. and got in a few hours of movement each day would NOT be overweight.

If your father did not have any health problems at 80 due to his weight, then I agree no doctor should agree to a drastic weight loss. I did not realize your father was 80. I think it comes down to a quality of life issue. If he may only live another 5 years (average lifespan say 85) then there may be no real benefit. If he had heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc. it would be medically negligent to not try and give him dietary support. Hence the focus of this forum.

A vegetarian diet has been shown to increase lifespan.

[ravenwoodglass]

"All I said was that people who have neglected themselves for so long may have no real beta function left to work with (glucose is toxic to beta cells as is insulin resistance) and MAY need external insulin, meds etc. to prevent dangerous blood sugars. I said MAY. Often many people who present with heart attacks and strokes etc. are diagnosed with diabetes only when they come into the ER for treatment of their acute heart disease, influenced by undiagnosed Type 2 diabetes. These people have lived so unhealthily for so long that the damage is done."

I have to interject here. I was diagnosed with Type 2 a few months ago. I was always a healthy weight, in fact on the thin side. I did not eat an extremelly poor diet I did however consume a lot of gluten, a poison for me. Until I became very ill I got a great deal of excercise both from my profession and from my lifestyle. I was told by my MD that the celiac was the direct cause of my diabetes. In my case it had nothing to do with diet or excercise but it had a lot to do with autoimmune activity against my pancreas.

"Actually this is wrong. Intensive treatment of BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 is being pushed hard, because we know it can prevent complications and expensive utilization of healthcare dollars.

In fact, that is why so many doctors prescribe DRUGS (the topic) to Type 2's, so they can lower their damaging high blood sugar levels faster, sooner, and more efficiently."

I was actually handed a script for metformin and told my diet was fine just cut out alcohol entirely and watch my sugar and carb intake but that my diet was essentially okay. After research the fact that the side effects of this and other BS drugs were much like a glutening, including the black box warning I have refused the drugs. When the time comes insulin will be the answer for me.

.

"Very good and profound point. I guess I should make it clearer that those with Type 2 can see positive effects with a healthy diet and exercise alone, even if weight loss doesn't occur. Also, I think even a 1% drop in body weight can have significant affects, according to some studies."

I have acheived excellent control of my sugar through diet (very low carb( edit- this should have said low starch with almost no grain), little sugar and NO artificial sweetners ever) and excercise alone. Something that also needs to be done is to test all Type 2's for celiac routinely. Especially the ones with parathesias and weight or depression problems. The addictive nature of gluten alone can cause overconsumption and the bodies attempt to retain as many nutrients as possible can at times result in weight gain far above what would normally be seen.

[Guest Doll]

"All I said was that people who have neglected themselves for so long may have no real beta function left to work with (glucose is toxic to beta cells as is insulin resistance) and MAY need external insulin, meds etc. to prevent dangerous blood sugars. I said MAY. Often many people who present with heart attacks and strokes etc. are diagnosed with diabetes only when they come into the ER for treatment of their acute heart disease, influenced by undiagnosed Type 2 diabetes. These people have lived so unhealthily for so long that the damage is done."

I have to interject here. I was diagnosed with Type 2 a few months ago. I was always a healthy weight, in fact on the thin side. I did not eat an extremelly poor diet I did however consume a lot of gluten, a poison for me. Until I became very ill I got a great deal of excercise both from my profession and from my lifestyle. I was told by my MD that the celiac was the direct cause of my diabetes. In my case it had nothing to do with diet or excercise but it had a lot to do with autoimmune activity against my pancreas.

"Actually this is wrong. Intensive treatment of BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 is being pushed hard, because we know it can prevent complications and expensive utilization of healthcare dollars.

In fact, that is why so many doctors prescribe DRUGS (the topic) to Type 2's, so they can lower their damaging high blood sugar levels faster, sooner, and more efficiently."

I was actually handed a script for metformin and told my diet was fine just cut out alcohol entirely and watch my sugar and carb intake but that my diet was essentially okay. After research the fact that the side effects of this and other BS drugs were much like a glutening, including the black box warning I have refused the drugs. When the time comes insulin will be the answer for me.

.

"Very good and profound point. I guess I should make it clearer that those with Type 2 can see positive effects with a healthy diet and exercise alone, even if weight loss doesn't occur. Also, I think even a 1% drop in body weight can have significant affects, according to some studies."

I have acheived excellent control of my sugar through diet (very low carb, little sugar and NO artificial sweetners ever) and excercise alone. Something that also needs to be done is to test all Type 2's for celiac routinely. Especially the ones with parathesias and weight or depression problems. The addictive nature of gluten alone can cause overconsumption and the bodies attempt to retain as many nutrients as possible can at times result in weight gain far above what would normally be seen.

Actually, you may have Type 1, which is genetically linked to Celiac. Sometimes it's called LADA (Latent Autoimmune Diabetes of Adults). Many older Type 1's are given oral meds at first, because their autoimmune destruction is usually slower. Type 1 diabetes is NOT linked to lifestyle, Type 2 diabetes, the kind we have been discussing, IS.

If you ARE Type 2: I have posted before that there are cases of Type 2 caused by pancreatitis, which can be caused by untreated Celiac. But most people with Type 2 are NOT thin, do NOT follow a healthy lifestyle, do NOT have pancreatitis, and do NOT have Celiac.

I am not sure that you were developing AUTOIMMUNE diabetes. Type 2 is NOT autoimmune. Type 1 is not preventable. You would not have been able to stop it with the gluten-free diet, and you would now need insulin, or will in the near future.

Pancreatitis induced Type 2 is rarer. I'm sure there are people on this board on the gluten-free diet who have gained weight and may even have developed Type 2 despite being gluten-free.

There are also cases of Type 2 called MODY, which is a genetic defect that causes Type 2 in young, thin people. I assume your doctor thought you may have this at first, and hence gave you a Rx. which is usually used to treat MODY, as most people who have it already ARE following a healthy lifestyle, but have abnormal blood sugars.

I do think that screening for Celiac in the population in general is a very good thing.

It would be interesting to see if Italy (who screens all children for Celiac-although some people develop it as adults) has a lower rate of Type 2. Of course there are other factors more important such as diet, but it is something you could research.

Sorry, I did want to add that if you really DO have Type 1 diabetes (the autoimmune kind genetically related to Celiac) and you were able to halt the production of anti-bodies through the gluten-free diet, I would really be interested to learn more.

I have heard conflicting evidence on this.

If Type 1's can regenerate beta cells (this is groundbreaking recent information that they can) if the autoimmunity is removed, should we not see cases of Type 1's on the gluten-free diet "correcting" themselves?

I am curious, please let me know what happens if you truly were developing TYPE 1.

[eKatherine]

My experience is that while I was still eating gluten, my hands and feet would swell up as if I was dehydrated, and I was thirsty all the time, though no amount of water seemed to make my thirst go away. After going gluten-free, I no longer am bothered by excessive thirst. I have no doubt that I was on the road to diabetes.

[Guest Doll]

"All I said was that people who have neglected themselves for so long may have no real beta function left to work with (glucose is toxic to beta cells as is insulin resistance) and MAY need external insulin, meds etc. to prevent dangerous blood sugars. I said MAY. Often many people who present with heart attacks and strokes etc. are diagnosed with diabetes only when they come into the ER for treatment of their acute heart disease, influenced by undiagnosed Type 2 diabetes. These people have lived so unhealthily for so long that the damage is done."

I have to interject here. I was diagnosed with Type 2 a few months ago. I was always a healthy weight, in fact on the thin side. I did not eat an extremelly poor diet I did however consume a lot of gluten, a poison for me. Until I became very ill I got a great deal of excercise both from my profession and from my lifestyle. I was told by my MD that the celiac was the direct cause of my diabetes. In my case it had nothing to do with diet or excercise but it had a lot to do with autoimmune activity against my pancreas.

"Actually this is wrong. Intensive treatment of BOTH Type 1 and Type 2 is being pushed hard, because we know it can prevent complications and expensive utilization of healthcare dollars.

In fact, that is why so many doctors prescribe DRUGS (the topic) to Type 2's, so they can lower their damaging high blood sugar levels faster, sooner, and more efficiently."

I was actually handed a script for metformin and told my diet was fine just cut out alcohol entirely and watch my sugar and carb intake but that my diet was essentially okay. After research the fact that the side effects of this and other BS drugs were much like a glutening, including the black box warning I have refused the drugs. When the time comes insulin will be the answer for me.

.

"Very good and profound point. I guess I should make it clearer that those with Type 2 can see positive effects with a healthy diet and exercise alone, even if weight loss doesn't occur. Also, I think even a 1% drop in body weight can have significant affects, according to some studies."

I have acheived excellent control of my sugar through diet (very low carb, little sugar and NO artificial sweetners ever) and excercise alone. Something that also needs to be done is to test all Type 2's for celiac routinely. Especially the ones with parathesias and weight or depression problems. The addictive nature of gluten alone can cause overconsumption and the bodies attempt to retain as many nutrients as possible can at times result in weight gain far above what would normally be seen.

I also want to point out that your doctor needs to correctly determine what kind of diabetes you have, by testing you for antibodies. It is very dangerous to treat a Type 1 as a Type 2, because if you don't get insulin at some point, you will go into a coma which can be fatal if untreated.

Also, some of the "side effects" listed for some ant-diabetic meds are in fact, symptoms of hypoglycemia, which can occur with insulin usage.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

On another note, I know that this is not the correct forum to state this, but I personally believe that more of us should stop complaining about doctors and BECOME (Celiac-knowledgeable) doctors if they want to make a change.

Complaining will not change the world as much as doing something about it yourself.

I agree with almost everything you say, but not this!!!!

I really like the career I've chosen. Why. after 20 years, should I throw it out and spend 6 years in medical school just because I think many of the doctors I've had aren't worth the time I've spent in their offices, let alone the $25 copay? I think the medical insurance and pharmaceutical industries are a good percentage of the problem.

When it comes down to it, we (the patients) are the consumers. We have every RIGHT to complain about something we purchase that is of shoddy quality. I don't think it's reasonable to infer that we don't have the right to complain about docotrs unless we plan on becoming doctors ourselves. It doesn't take a medical degree to recognize poor listening/diagnostic skills.

[utdan]

The issue is that all of the bad choices we can point to - lack of exercise, eating lots of snacks, etc., don't add up to that extra weight. Not exercising doesn't make someone put on 100 pounds, and starting an exercise program will only result in the loss of a few pounds. It's as though there is a trigger, as with celiac, and we don't know what it is that sets weight out of control.

"Supervised medical weight loss plan"? My mother thought he should get thin, and put him on a semivegetarian fat-free diet that was composed mostly of wheat and skim milk, even though he had lactose intolerance and digestive issues his whole life. She found a doctor who agreed that it would be a good idea for an 80 year old man to lose 100 pounds in a year.

All his life he has had extremely low cholesterol, which Japanese research has shown (sorry, no citation) will make a person tend to have strokes if they are on a cholesterol-lowering diet.

My father was as mentally sharp as he had been all his life until after he lost the weight, and there was no time until quite recently when he was "unable to care for himself". First he stopped telling stories, then became forgetful, then Parkinson's, and after that became unsteady and had several falls.

Can I ask was your father having symptoms of celiac? You mentioned he got parkinson's and I've seen a little bit of that common here. My father sometimes said that there was always something wrong with his digestion, then he got Parkinson's.

[Guest Doll]

I agree with almost everything you say, but not this!!!!

I really like the career I've chosen. Why. after 20 years, should I throw it out and spend 6 years in medical school just because I think many of the doctors I've had aren't worth the time I've spent in their offices, let alone the $25 copay? I think the medical insurance and pharmaceutical industries are a good percentage of the problem.

When it comes down to it, we (the patients) are the consumers. We have every RIGHT to complain about something we purchase that is of shoddy quality. I don't think it's reasonable to infer that we don't have the right to complain about docotrs unless we plan on becoming doctors ourselves. It doesn't take a medical degree to recognize poor listening/diagnostic skills.

Of course! I was just merely trying to say that the best way to change the system is to BECOME the system

I do think it would make a difference if more doctors with Celiac were in the profession. That's all. For those that are into health (a lot on this board!) and are looking for a career change and/or academic field of study....I say do it!

[utdan]

I agree with almost everything you say, but not this!!!!

I really like the career I've chosen. Why. after 20 years, should I throw it out and spend 6 years in medical school just because I think many of the doctors I've had aren't worth the time I've spent in their offices, let alone the $25 copay? I think the medical insurance and pharmaceutical industries are a good percentage of the problem.

When it comes down to it, we (the patients) are the consumers. We have every RIGHT to complain about something we purchase that is of shoddy quality. I don't think it's reasonable to infer that we don't have the right to complain about docotrs unless we plan on becoming doctors ourselves. It doesn't take a medical degree to recognize poor listening/diagnostic skills.

I also agree that we do have the right (and perhaps civic duty) to complain whenever we see public health services failing in there integrity and/or competancy.

In many of the threads on here I've seen arguments for not trusting traditional western medicine because of "Big Pharma" companies and their political influence, their industry power, and their supposed conflicts of interest in the medical field. Perhaps this should be more explored than shunned just so we get a more accurate picture of what's going on once and for all on this board. Ok, I really don't want to hijack this thread, I just wanted to know if someone more knowledgeable wanted to start a thread where accurate verifiable information could be posted on the matter?

[eKatherine]

Can I ask was your father having symptoms of celiac? You mentioned he got parkinson's and I've seen a little bit of that common here. My father sometimes said that there was always something wrong with his digestion, then he got Parkinson's.

In retrospect, I think so, but of course he was never tested. He always had gas, diarrhea, and the bathroom smelled horrible. When he first moved into an assisted living facility, he improved a lot in some ways, which I attribute to the fact that he was eating a balanced diet instead of wheat and milk all the time.

But since his last fall and subsequent flu which almost killed him, he's been ravenous - eating everything they give him, but unable to put on weight. Extremely painful constipation, too. The quantity of food they feed residents at an assisted living facility is based on calculations, not whether they are still hungry after the meal. So when I was visiting, I brought extra food (gluten-free), and he ate it all. Even now, my mother is still in denial about his lactose intolerance and thinks the fact that I have gluten issues is something that is isolated, not inherited. She is convinced that the reason he is constipated is that they didn't feed him massive quantities of wheat bran in the facility as she used to.

The fact that they live across the country makes it hard for me to have input.

[ravenwoodglass]

Actually, you may have Type 1, which is genetically linked to Celiac. Sometimes it's called LADA (Latent Autoimmune Diabetes of Adults). Many older Type 1's are given oral meds at first, because their autoimmune destruction is usually slower. Type 1 diabetes is NOT linked to lifestyle, Type 2 diabetes, the kind we have been discussing, IS.

If you ARE Type 2: I have posted before that there are cases of Type 2 caused by pancreatitis, which can be caused by untreated Celiac. But most people with Type 2 are NOT thin, do NOT follow a healthy lifestyle, do NOT have pancreatitis, and do NOT have Celiac.

I am not sure that you were developing AUTOIMMUNE diabetes. Type 2 is NOT autoimmune. Type 1 is not preventable. You would not have been able to stop it with the gluten-free diet, and you would now need insulin, or will in the near future.

Pancreatitis induced Type 2 is rarer. I'm sure there are people on this board on the gluten-free diet who have gained weight and may even have developed Type 2 despite being gluten-free.

There are also cases of Type 2 called MODY, which is a genetic defect that causes Type 2 in young, thin people. I assume your doctor thought you may have this at first, and hence gave you a Rx. which is usually used to treat MODY, as most people who have it already ARE following a healthy lifestyle, but have abnormal blood sugars.

I do think that screening for Celiac in the population in general is a very good thing.

It would be interesting to see if Italy (who screens all children for Celiac-although some people develop it as adults) has a lower rate of Type 2. Of course there are other factors more important such as diet, but it is something you could research.

Sorry, I did want to add that if you really DO have Type 1 diabetes (the autoimmune kind genetically related to Celiac) and you were able to halt the production of anti-bodies through the gluten-free diet, I would really be interested to learn more.

I have heard conflicting evidence on this.

If Type 1's can regenerate beta cells (this is groundbreaking recent information that they can) if the autoimmunity is removed, should we not see cases of Type 1's on the gluten-free diet "correcting" themselves?

I am curious, please let me know what happens if you truly were developing TYPE 1.

When I was first diagnosed I assumed he meant type 1 because he brought up the autoimmune factor when I asked him why I would get this if I did not have the typical overweight and underexcercised lifestyle that would usually be ascribed to Type 2. I have a Type 2 brother in law who flatly said I could not possibly have diabetes there was just no way.

How would a doctor tell the difference between a Type 1 and a Type 2?

I should note that he did state that I will need insulin at some point but he said he didn't know how long before I would.

It did take a lot of work and a lot of finger sticks to figure out how to control my BS with my diet. It took 2 to 3 weeks of testing and adjusting my foods. I can fully understand how some people would have a hard time with it. It was much harder than adjusting to being gluten free. But it has payed off so far. My morning readings are usually under 100 and often between 80 and 90. Post prandial are usually 140 or lower after 2 hours. It is however very obvious if I cheat one soda or a large starchy meal like 2 or 3 slices of pizza will push my numbers way up.

I would be very interested in links to the regeneration of beta cells, if this research bears fruit I would imagine that quick diagnosis of the celiac might well be 'curative' if things were caught soon enough. That would be fantastic news for the families of kids in particular that were newly diagnosed.

[Guest Doll]

When I was first diagnosed I assumed he meant type 1 because he brought up the autoimmune factor when I asked him why I would get this if I did not have the typical overweight and underexcercised lifestyle that would usually be ascribed to Type 2. I have a Type 2 brother in law who flatly said I could not possibly have diabetes there was just no way.

How would a doctor tell the difference between a Type 1 and a Type 2?

I should note that he did state that I will need insulin at some point but he said he didn't know how long before I would.

It did take a lot of work and a lot of finger sticks to figure out how to control my BS with my diet. It took 2 to 3 weeks of testing and adjusting my foods. I can fully understand how some people would have a hard time with it. It was much harder than adjusting to being gluten free. But it has payed off so far. My morning readings are usually under 100 and often between 80 and 90. Post prandial are usually 140 or lower after 2 hours. It is however very obvious if I cheat one soda or a large starchy meal like 2 or 3 slices of pizza will push my numbers way up.

I would be very interested in links to the regeneration of beta cells, if this research bears fruit I would imagine that quick diagnosis of the celiac might well be 'curative' if things were caught soon enough. That would be fantastic news for the families of kids in particular that were newly diagnosed.

It sounds like you are developing LADA, or adult onset slowly developing TYPE 1. My last post listed the tests that should be done. Although it CANNOT be stopped with diet, the current theory is to "get as much out of" the pancreas as possible until it is finally destroyed by autoimmunity, by following a lifestyle plan similar as prescribed to Type 2's. I say I think Type 1 because you have a genetically linked disease (Celiac), are not overweight, etc, and your doctor said you "will need insulin at some point" and mentioned "autoimmunity". This is Type 1. If this is the case, all the healthy living in the world unfortunately will not stop it.

You will find that at sometime in the near future, your blood sugars will remain elevated all the time regardless of diet. This is dangerous and you will need insulin ASAP. Please make sure your doctor keeps a close watch on you. They have found that starting small does of insulin sooner seems to "help out" the pancreas, and can allow you to keep good control longer.

How long have you been gluten free? I had thought that your antibodies had gone into remission. Many people say that the gluten-free diet prevents Type 1 and other autoimmune diseases genetically related to Celiac, but I didn't think so because many people get it AFTER being gluten-free. That's why I was so curious!

As for "regenerative" research, it is something I have been keeping my eye on for some time. It started with Dr.Faustman, an innovative researcher who found a way to stop beta cell autoimmunity with BCG, an $11 drug already approved for TB cases. Amazingly, she also found beta cells could regenerate once the autoimmunity was removed! It totally went against known science! She got no support, no funding, other researches laughed at her, etc. With the help of Lee Iacocca (The former CEO of Chrysler-His wife died of Type 1), she was able to continue her research. Even though JDRF continued to waste money on futile islet transplants with toxic immunosuppression for years while ignoring her groundbreaking research, they now have jumped on the bandwagon for "regenerative" research thanks to her.

You can search on the web:

http://www.joinleenow.org/]Joinleenow

or go to the JDRF website. They sponsored a Dr. Anita Chong to replicate Faustman's work (but refused to fund Faustman!)

There are many other trials that take newly diagnosed Type 1's.

If you want more info let me know, ask your doctor, or do a web search for clinical trials and Type 1.

Keep me posted and feel free to ask any questions!

Welcome to the Type 1 club! The club nobody wants to join!

[ravenwoodglass]

It sounds like you are developing LADA, or adult onset slowly developing TYPE 1. My last post listed the tests that should be done. Although it CANNOT be stopped with diet, the current theory is to "get as much out of" the pancreas as possible until it is finally destroyed by autoimmunity, by following a lifestyle plan similar as prescribed to Type 2's. I say I think Type 1 because you have a genetically linked disease (Celiac), are not overweight, etc, and your doctor said you "will need insulin at some point" and mentioned "autoimmunity". This is Type 1. If this is the case, all the healthy living in the world unfortunately will not stop it.

You will find that at sometime in the near future, your blood sugars will remain elevated all the time regardless of diet. This is dangerous and you will need insulin ASAP. Please make sure your doctor keeps a close watch on you. They have found that starting small does of insulin sooner seems to "help out" the pancreas, and can allow you to keep good control longer.

How long have you been gluten free? I had thought that your antibodies had gone into remission. Many people say that the gluten-free diet prevents Type 1 and other autoimmune diseases genetically related to Celiac, but I didn't think so because many people get it AFTER being gluten-free. That's why I was so curious!

As for "regenerative" research, it is something I have been keeping my eye on for some time. It started with Dr.Faustman, an innovative researcher who found a way to stop beta cell autoimmunity with BCG, an $11 drug already approved for TB cases. Amazingly, she also found beta cells could regenerate once the autoimmunity was removed! It totally went against known science! She got no support, no funding, other researches laughed at her, etc. With the help of Lee Iacocca (The former CEO of Chrysler-His wife died of Type 1), she was able to continue her research. Even though JDRF continued to waste money on futile islet transplants with toxic immunosuppression for years while ignoring her groundbreaking research, they now have jumped on the bandwagon for "regenerative" research thanks to her.

You can search on the web:

http://www.joinleenow.org/]Joinleenow

or go to the JDRF website. They sponsored a Dr. Anita Chong to replicate Faustman's work (but refused to fund Faustman!)

There are many other trials that take newly diagnosed Type 1's.

If you want more info let me know, ask your doctor, or do a web search for clinical trials and Type 1.

Keep me posted and feel free to ask any questions!

Welcome to the Type 1 club! The club nobody wants to join!

Thank you for your response. I was finally diagnosed celiac almost 4 years ago. That was when I gave myself a break from Dr.s. with the exception of bone scans and loads of dental work. I went in to get a general check up about 5 months ago and that was when The diabetes was found. I got the check up because I was still waking 5 times a night but now it was to pee instead of the D it used to be. I assumed that the many years of being awakened by intestinal cramps had basically 'trained' me to wake up. I had also gotten very tired again but without the joint pain etc that I get from gluten. My doctor did a through blood group and that was how the diabetes was found. I later found other blood glucose tests that were high from a few years ago although nothing was mentioned so this could have existed for a while. I will have to question my doctor furthur when I see him again to be sure it really is Type 2 because everything you have stated is what he has said. I didn't think to ask him, I was too stunned, and it was the Diabetes Educator who said I was Type 2, maybe she just assumed because of my age.

As far as the gluten free diet helping prevent it I think that might be helpful if the diet is introduced early in the celiac disease. For me I am sure it would be much too late for the diet to have any preventative effect. I was clearly celiac from age 4 when I developed severe DH (thought to be 12 month a year poison ivy), ataxia and joint and muscle problems. With 41 years for this stuff to work on my immune and neurological systems I don't think the gluten-free diet had a chance of stopping the diabetes process. But who knows my other problems are but a memory now, and they were severe. I even have leg reflexes again something I had not had since childhood so who knows maybe the gluten-free - low starch/sugar diet combined with freqent testing will help me stave off isulin for a while. I am hoping for 10 years but even if it ends up being two months at least I know I am being proactive with this.

Thanks for links also. I will definately check them out. I know much, much less about diabetes than I would like and the only way to change that is to read, read, read.

[utdan]

In retrospect, I think so, but of course he was never tested. He always had gas, diarrhea, and the bathroom smelled horrible.

Thank you for replying. That sounds like my father too, although he was never tested for celiac either.