What Would You Have Done?

[cmzirkelbach]

My family was on vacation (in Canada) at a hotel with a continental breakfast (breads, muffins and cereal, Oh my!). We were sitting outside of the main dining room eating when a mother walked out of the dining room with a child, complaining about how she is fed up with her other daughter crying at every meal and refusing to eat anything. The mother and that child were pretty thin. A few minutes later, the crying daughter, who was also very thin, walked out with another adult who was quizzing her about whether she ate anything.

My husband and I looked at each other, and of course thought celiac, but how do you approach a total stranger under these circumstances? But, why else would a child cry at every meal, unless eating caused pain?

It was too late to stop them, and we looked for them on the grounds and could not find them. We ended up writing a letter and leaving it at the front desk as we were checking out that morning. The woman on duty at the time has a friend with celiac, and thought she knew the family we were concerned about and said she would deliver it.

As this happened to anyone else?

[CarlaB]

No, but you did the right thing.

I mention it to anyone who tells me they or a relative/friend of theirs has been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. This happened recently when the plumber (who is here a lot since we just renovated our bathroom) was here. His wife has been diagnosed with rheumatiod arthritis even though her tests for it come out negative. She goes days without eating as it causes pain. She's also very fatigued. He was thrilled to hear about celiac in hopes that it may answer some of her health problems.

Considering that 1:4900 are diagnoses and 1:133 have it, we do need to get the word out. There are countless numbers of people suffering needlessly. Also, it will become and easier disease to live with when 1% of the population is diagnosed with it!!!

[Michi8]

I have one of those thin kids who cries or whines at (almost) every meal, and it's not because eating causes pain (he's old enough to tell us if something is painful or uncomfortable for him.) He is an extremely fussy eater, and we suspect that he's got a very sensitive palate, especially to bitter tastes (eg veggies) and mushy textures (eg mashed potatoes.) It goes along with his sensitivity to touch, smell, sound and sight. Unfortunately, his food fusiness sometimes becomes more pronounced when he's eating away from home, and has a limited selection of foods (like with a continental breakfast...BTDT.) My son could have celiac, but there is nothing about his growth and health that indicate it directly at this point in time.

It is an embarrassing situation for parents, and I would be absolutely mortified and angry if a stranger approached me to give me suggestions about what could be causing the crying. Personally, I would trust that the parents of the child are well aware of the issue, and could very well be looking into diagnosis with their doctor already.

Michelle

[tarnalberry]

Not only are there a lot of other things that can cause pain during meal time than celiac, there are a lot of other things that can cause crying at meal time besides pain. I think you jumped to one to many conclusions there. Yes, celiac is a possibility, but one of many, and - I would venture - not even the most likely on the list. I don't think there's a good way to bring it up in that situation, I'm afraid.

[eKatherine]

I have one of those thin kids who cries or whines at (almost) every meal, and it's not because eating causes pain (he's old enough to tell us if something is painful or uncomfortable for him.) He is an extremely fussy eater, and we suspect that he's got a very sensitive palate, especially to bitter tastes (eg veggies) and mushy textures (eg mashed potatoes.) It goes along with his sensitivity to touch, smell, sound and sight. Unfortunately, his food fusiness sometimes becomes more pronounced when he's eating away from home, and has a limited selection of foods (like with a continental breakfast...BTDT.) My son could have celiac, but there is nothing about his growth and health that indicate it directly at this point in time.

It is an embarrassing situation for parents, and I would be absolutely mortified and angry if a stranger approached me to give me suggestions about what could be causing the crying. Personally, I would trust that the parents of the child are well aware of the issue, and could very well be looking into diagnosis with their doctor already.

Michelle

Why does the child cry or whine? Do you pester him to eat things that bother him?

[Michi8]

Why does the child cry or whine? Do you pester him to eat things that bother him?

I'm sorry, what are you accusing me of? You think I "pester" my children into eating?

You've hit a real hot button here. I am extremely sensitive to my children's needs, have been since their birth. I work very hard to be in tune with their individual personalities and health issues. I, myself, have had multiple food allergies since childhood and so am very sensitive to their food reactions.

I am not looking for a diagnosis, and don't appreciate anyone sticking their nose in to examine what it "appears" I might be doing wrong. MYOB.

Michelle

[eKatherine]

I'm sorry, what are you accusing me of? You think I "pester" my children into eating?

You've hit a real hot button here. I am extremely sensitive to my children's needs, have been since their birth. I work very hard to be in tune with their individual personalities and health issues. I, myself, have had multiple food allergies since childhood and so am very sensitive to their food reactions.

I am not looking for a diagnosis, and don't appreciate anyone sticking their nose in to examine what it "appears" I might be doing wrong. MYOB.

Michelle

I'm sorry if you were offended, but you brought up the topic. I was unaware it was off-limits.

[ravenwoodglass]

I have one of those thin kids who cries or whines at (almost) every meal, and it's not because eating causes pain (he's old enough to tell us if something is painful or uncomfortable for him.) He is an extremely fussy eater, and we suspect that he's got a very sensitive palate, especially to bitter tastes (eg veggies) and mushy textures (eg mashed potatoes.) It goes along with his sensitivity to touch, smell, sound and sight. Unfortunately, his food fusiness sometimes becomes more pronounced when he's eating away from home, and has a limited selection of foods (like with a continental breakfast...BTDT.) My son could have celiac, but there is nothing about his growth and health that indicate it directly at this point in time.

Michelle

This is just a suggestion but you may want to consider the possibility of celiac. This is the same sort of thing that I used to see in my DS, (who also has Aspergers at a very high functioning level) and to some lesser extent in his sister. His taste buds and senses of touch and feeling were on hyperdrive. We didn't think much of it because I am the same way. It wasn't until after he was diagnosed and went gluten-free that we realized all the things that were being impacted. He did have growth problems but his sister who is also celiac grew normally and had a good weight until her teens.

[Michi8]

I'm sorry if you were offended, but you brought up the topic. I was unaware it was off-limits.

If you had read my original post thoroughly, you would have seen that I used my son's fussiness as an example to say that if someone had approached me to tell me what they thought about his fussing, I would have been moritified and angry. Nowhere in that post did I ask for help.

Michelle

[eKatherine]

If you had read my original post thoroughly, you would have seen that I used my son's fussiness as an example to say that if someone had approached me to tell me what they thought about his fussing, I would have been moritified and angry. Nowhere in that post did I ask for help.

Michelle

Given the extent of undiagnosed celiac in the general public, I think it is highly unlikely that these people have considered it and legitimately ruled it out.

[Michi8]

This is just a suggestion but you may want to consider the possibility of celiac. This is the same sort of thing that I used to see in my DS, (who also has Aspergers at a very high functioning level) and to some lesser extent in his sister. His taste buds and senses of touch and feeling were on hyperdrive. We didn't think much of it because I am the same way. It wasn't until after he was diagnosed and went gluten-free that we realized all the things that were being impacted. He did have growth problems but his sister who is also celiac grew normally and had a good weight until her teens.

Sigh. Again, I didn't ask for help. Trust me, I'm as in tune with my kids as possible, without being neurotic about it. My son does not have Aspergers. We have been to a psychologist to work through some of his sensitivies (which are similar to my sensitivies, BTW) and to help him develop skills to deal with stuff out of his control (eg at school.) We deal with his food issues as gently as possible, balancing it with everyone else's food issues. My son is brilliant in art and math. We are contemplating doing an educational assessment when he is a bit older. He is inquisitive, observant and healthy.

I am looking into celiac for myself right now (negative panel, bone density test today, skin patch testing in two weeks, edoscopy in Nov, colonoscopy in March.) I will be looking into it with the kids after that, because all three kids have different health issues that could be realted to celiac: 1st son has chronic constipation (being treated, and had negative celiac panel BTW), 2nd son is thin, but has no other health signs other than hayfever, daughter has head to toe eczema, allergies, and the start of asthma. The diagnosis of celiac will have to come with time. No other extended family members are willing to test, so I am the pioneer here.

Michelle

Given the extent of undiagnosed celiac in the general public, I think it is highly unlikely that these people have considered it and legitimately ruled it out.

But I believe it is inappropriate to approach a stranger in that situation. Being a thin, fussy eater does not necessarily mean celiac.

Michelle

[ravenwoodglass]

Sigh. Again, I didn't ask for help. Trust me, I'm as in tune with my kids as possible, without being neurotic about it. My son does not have Aspergers. We have been to a psychologist to work through some of his sensitivies (which are similar to my sensitivies, BTW) and to help him develop skills to deal with stuff out of his control (eg at school.) We deal with his food issues as gently as possible, balancing it with everyone else's food issues. My son is brilliant in art and math. We are contemplating doing an educational assessment when he is a bit older. He is inquisitive, observant and healthy.

Michelle

I was not implying he does have aspergers only you and your doctors could tell about that. Aspergers by the way does not mean lower intelligence or functioning on an educational level, in fact it is usually the opposite. My DS is a honor student who just won a full scholarship to a very good school and is also very talented in art, science, philosopy, and mathmatics and mechanics. His Aspergers effected his social understanding.

I am sorry if you were offended, this is a message board with a lot of people at various stages of knowledge and understanding about celiac disease. It is natural for people to comment on the things other people state. The whole purpose of boards like this one is to learn from each other and that takes communication.

I hope you find answers soon to your problems.

[tarnalberry]

This is one of the reasons - besides the fact that there isn't necessarily a good reason to think that celiac is the most likely culprit - that there is no way to bring it up to strangers in public. It's a hot button issue, and there really isn't a polite way of bringing it up. But, please keep in mind, as celiacs, we tend to see celiac in everything, even when it's not there. It really isn't the cause behind everything.

[CarlaB]

It depends on the situation, of course, and would need to be brought up delicately, that's for sure. If someone approached me because I had a fussy, skinny child who refused to eat because it seemed to hurt, and said, "You know, I was like that as a child and I have this disease, I was just wondering if it's after any certain food that your child gets tummy aches. If it is, she may have what I do ..." That's not accusatory in any way and it would have saved me years of health problems if someone had said that to my mom.

Some parents are working on what the issue is, some parents are not. Mine did not do a thing to see what was wrong with me and would just tell people I was a baby and had a low-threshold of pain. Even when I was in my room with bad diarrhea (I had my own bathroom in my room ), they would basically ignore me as if I were making it up and would act like I was putting them out if I needed anything.

I would be more concerned that a child go till they're 43, like I did, than that I unitentionally hurt someone's feelings. Of course, no one's feelings should be hurt if the topic is brought up delicately like I mentioned. Unless someone is oversensitive, then it's their problem in my opinion.

This is one of the reasons - besides the fact that there isn't necessarily a good reason to think that celiac is the most likely culprit - that there is no way to bring it up to strangers in public. It's a hot button issue, and there really isn't a polite way of bringing it up. But, please keep in mind, as celiacs, we tend to see celiac in everything, even when it's not there. It really isn't the cause behind everything.

True, but it might enlighten them to the idea that it's a food allergy causing the problem.

[Michi8]

I was not implying he does have aspergers only you and your doctors could tell about that. Aspergers by the way does not mean lower intelligence or functioning on an educational level, in fact it is usually the opposite. My DS is a honor student who just won a full scholarship to a very good school and is also very talented in art, science, philosopy, and mathmatics and mechanics. His Aspergers effected his social understanding.

I am sorry if you were offended, this is a message board with a lot of people at various stages of knowledge and understanding about celiac disease. It is natural for people to comment on the things other people state. The whole purpose of boards like this one is to learn from each other and that takes communication.

I hope you find answers soon to your problems.

I appreciate the knowledge that other have on this board...its the reason I came here while I'm sorting through my own health issues.

Aspergers has touched a number of families I know personally, and it was top of mind for me (along with OCD) when my son started showing his sensitivies. But he isn't exhibiting the social issues that coincide with the disorder, and that has been confirmed by doctors and our psychologist. In both mine and my husbands families we have many family members who have the same brilliance...some in math & arts, and some more in languages...and along with the brilliance comes certain personality traits that we're seeing in my son as well.

Michelle

[Michi8]

It depends on the situation, of course, and would need to be brought up delicately, that's for sure. If someone approached me because I had a fussy, skinny child who refused to eat because it seemed to hurt, and said, "You know, I was like that as a child and I have this disease, I was just wondering if it's after any certain food that your child gets tummy aches. If it is, she may have what I do ..." That's not accusatory in any way and it would have saved me years of health problems if someone had said that to my mom.

Some parents are working on what the issue is, some parents are not. Mine did not do a thing to see what was wrong with me and would just tell people I was a baby and had a low-threshold of pain. Even when I was in my room with bad diarrhea (I had my own bathroom in my room ), they would basically ignore me as if I were making it up and would act like I was putting them out if I needed anything.

I would be more concerned that a child go till they're 43, like I did, than that I unitentionally hurt someone's feelings. Of course, no one's feelings should be hurt if the topic is brought up delicately like I mentioned. Unless someone is oversensitive, then it's their problem in my opinion.

True, but it might enlighten them to the idea that it's a food allergy causing the problem.

I don't think the subject should be brought up at all. I view it as any other parenting issue. I do not want it pointed out and questioned by strangers in public. If my kids were crying and creating a scene in public (for example, having a tantrum a the grocery store,) I just want to minimize it and remove them from the situation as quickly as possible. The last thing I would want is someone who doesn't know the whole story giving their opinion of how I should handle it. Same goes for opinions about health issues.

Michelle

[GFBetsy]

I don't know. I once spoke to a lady in the fabric store. She was standing in line behind me, and was accompanied by her 2 sons. I could tell that one was older than the other, but only because he was marginally taller. He looked like a walking skeleton. You could see all the bones in his elbow, his cheekbones stuck out and you could see his jaw-bone, and his knuckles were very obvious because his fingers were SOOO skinny. The thing that made it stick out so far (to me, anyway) was that his little brother was so . . . healthy looking, for lack of a better word. He had a little baby fat left (he was about 7 or 8), and just looked well nourished.

I stood there in line for a minute wondering if I should say anything, and finally decided that I would berate myself forever if I didn't say SOMETHING. So I said : "I was just noticing how skinny your son is." She threw her hands up in the air (near her face) and got this look on her face like "Here come the allegations of child abuse". She said (without even drawing a breath): "He eats like a horse and he doesn't gain weight and the doctors don't know why." I said: "There's this disease that runs in my family called celiac . . ." and went on to explain some of the symptoms (especially the difficulty in gaining weight). We talked about it for several minutes (those fabric store lines move very slowly) and I wrote it down for her so she could talk to her doctor about it if she wanted to. She told me that no doctor had ever talked to her about celiac being a possible explanation of her son's weight pronblems.

I have no idea if she ever did anything about our conversation. She may not have. She may just have become aware of the term "celiac", and perhaps someday she'll read a newspaper article about it and say to herself "That's the disease that pushy lady in the fabric store was talking about . . . hmmm, maybe I should ask my doctor about this after all." But at least I know that I didn't leave that child to starve to death because I was too afraid to bring up a touchy subject with a stranger. He may not have celiac at all, but I couldn't just walk away without suggesting it as a possibility.

My great-aunt died from complications of celiac in the 20's or 30's when she was just 5 or 6 years old. My great-grandfather insisted on an autopsy, because there was no reason for her to starve to death the way she did. The doctor told my GGPa that it was celiac and that it was genetic, so his decendants needed to watch out for it. Because of that, my family has known about this disease for a lot longer than most people have. We didn't know about the "non-classic" symptoms, so a lot of my family members went undiagnosed until recently, but my grandad was always looking out for those "starving to death" signs of celiac. One Sunday 30 or 40 years ago, a member of his church brought a visiting grandson to church with her. He was incredibly skinny. My grandfather looked at him and told his grandmother that they ought to take him off of wheat. He explained what had happened to his sister and they decided to try it. The boy's grandmother later told my grandfather "You saved his life. He was starving to death." Nobody had been able to tell them what the problem was, except for my grandfather, because he was one of the few people who knew about the disease. The mom I talked to had never heard of celiac disease, in spite of the fact that he ate like a horse and never gained weight and she'd talked to doctors about it. I mentioned it because I knew about it. I hope it helped. But if it didn't, at least I tried.

Sorry for the length . . . I get carried away sometimes

[Guest nini]

I forget what the term is, but when you are focused on something, ie: Celiac, you tend to see it everywhere in everyone... it's just that our awareness is keyed in on Celiac.

I do think we have an obligation to make people more aware of Celiac, but we have to be so careful to do it in a way as to not offend.

Michelle, I too would be mortified, but just keep in mind that everyone here has Celiac on the brain and that is usually the first thing we think of. And, we also know that Celiac is genetic and runs in families and doesn't always manifest in gastrointestinal distress. So even though you don't think it's Celiac, it is something to consider. My daugher was an extremely picky eater before dx, and now, she tries just about anything. Just a thought.

[Michi8]

I forget what the term is, but when you are focused on something, ie: Celiac, you tend to see it everywhere in everyone... it's just that our awareness is keyed in on Celiac.

I do think we have an obligation to make people more aware of Celiac, but we have to be so careful to do it in a way as to not offend.

Michelle, I too would be mortified, but just keep in mind that everyone here has Celiac on the brain and that is usually the first thing we think of. And, we also know that Celiac is genetic and runs in families and doesn't always manifest in gastrointestinal distress. So even though you don't think it's Celiac, it is something to consider. My daugher was an extremely picky eater before dx, and now, she tries just about anything. Just a thought.

Thanks, nini. I do suspect celiac is in my family. But I'm going through the process of diagnosis carefully. I don't want to put my kids through unnecessary invasive tests (or be given the Munchausen by proxy label!) We're dealing with their current symptoms and trying different things. When I go through my own tests, then I may have enough info to proceed through further tests with the kids. I also suspect my husband may have it, but he is a tough one to convince (and he doesn't want to give up beer! LOL!). Given his scandinavian heritage and symptoms in his whole family I bet the tests would be positive. I also have to work around DH's skepticism with putting our family on a gluten-free diet...it is a delicate balance with working through the process. One step at a time though...like I said, I'm the pioneer here.

I can understand the focus for people who have celiac, and the need to get the message out. I was made aware of it myself with a campaign that was televised in the mid-nineties in BC. Then my boss, who didn't have any of the "classic" symptoms, was diagnosed. I'm not diagnosed myself (yet) but even I'm spreading the message to others about getting tested.

It's hard to know when the message is welcome and when it isn't. It's not unlike spreading the message about any other health topic. For example, I'm a big believer in extended breastfeeding, natural birth, homebirth and attachment parenting. I like to encourage other parents to follow that path. But I am careful to limit my enthusiastic support/promotion to those who are receptive. It's a touchy subject, and I don't know others' history/experience. And I would never go up to a total stranger and tell them how they should be feeding/raising their kids.

Michelle

[CarlaB]

Michelle, I agree you can't tell others how to raise their kids even though you had a good experience with one method (I happen to agree with you). However, the difference is that celiac is on a lot of people's minds ... with the statistics that 1:4900 are diagnosed but 1:133 have it, the NIH is even taking it seriously now. I know it can be on your mind, like Nini said, but underdiagnosis is a very real problem. Anytime someone mentions IBS or some other disease that is commonly diagnosed instead of celiac, I bring it up. Of course, we're already talking about health. It would be nice if we had little pamphlets that said something about not taking offense, but the person who gave this to you thought you might benefit from knowing about this underdiagnosed disease ... I'm only half-joking.

[Michi8]

Michelle, I agree you can't tell others how to raise their kids even though you had a good experience with one method (I happen to agree with you). However, the difference is that celiac is on a lot of people's minds ... with the statistics that 1:4900 are diagnosed but 1:133 have it, the NIH is even taking it seriously now. I know it can be on your mind, like Nini said, but underdiagnosis is a very real problem. Anytime someone mentions IBS or some other disease that is commonly diagnosed instead of celiac, I bring it up. Of course, we're already talking about health. It would be nice if we had little pamphlets that said something about not taking offense, but the person who gave this to you thought you might benefit from knowing about this underdiagnosed disease ... I'm only half-joking.

But there is difference when someone brings up a health topic that naturally flows into mentioning celiac. It is an entirely appropriate venue in which to bring it up. Approaching someone out of the blue, however, may not be appropriate.

Celiac is on the minds of a lot of people in the celiac community, and I agree that the word needs to be spread. But it may not be appropriate to approach people on an individual basis, given that you don't know a strangers' health history. This is where there needs to be a strong community-based campaign to raise awareness and, more importantly, education in the medical community to make clear that old perceptions of the disease are just plain wrong and that screening for the disease should become top of mind.

Michelle

[cmzirkelbach]

Interesting feedback...I agree it is a hard topic to bring up to strangers and I applaud GFBetsy.

From my own experience, my son was in SE preschool when he was four, one of the aides, who also worked as an EMT, pointed out to me on a Friday that my son seemed thirsty lately. I said, fine, just give him water to drink if he is thirsty.

A friend babysat him on Saturday night and talked about how thirsty he seemed when we met on Monday. Light finally dawns, we go to the hospital and it was diabetes.

When he went back to school, the aide told me she was concerned that it might be diabetes, but did not feel comfortable saying so to me. Ugh! And she saw me everyday when I dropped him off at school.

I would not want that to happen to anyone else. So, I may have jumped to conclusions, but I responded to the mother complaining loud enough for the whole room to hear about the daughter's crying, fussing and not eating at every meal, and she seemed to be at her wit's end; I did not hear or see the child during the meal time. Plus, she and her two daughters were very underweight. Not enough for a diagnosis, but those are clues. And, we all know how underdiagnosed celiac is, that public awareness is low, and even people/parents/family involved in diagnosis can remain in denial. And, many food intolerances are not yet recognized by the medical community.

I would have loved to have had the opportunity to strike up a conversation with the mother, but we were checking out that morning. Clearly, I did not feel comfortable chasing her down and bringing up the idea of food intolerances to her either, but I still feel I did a real disservice to the daughter, who was maybe 5,6?, as leaving some info at the desk was a shot in the dark.

[Michi8]

Interesting feedback...I agree it is a hard topic to bring up to strangers and I applaud GFBetsy.

From my own experience, my son was in SE preschool when he was four, one of the aides, who also worked as an EMT, pointed out to me on a Friday that my son seemed thirsty lately. I said, fine, just give him water to drink if he is thirsty.

A friend babysat him on Saturday night and talked about how thirsty he seemed when we met on Monday. Light finally dawns, we go to the hospital and it was diabetes.

When he went back to school, the aide told me she was concerned that it might be diabetes, but did not feel comfortable saying so to me. Ugh! And she saw me everyday when I dropped him off at school.

I would not want that to happen to anyone else. So, I may have jumped to conclusions, but I responded to the mother complaining loud enough for the whole room to hear about the daughter's crying, fussing and not eating at every meal, and she seemed to be at her wit's end; I did not hear or see the child during the meal time. Plus, she and her two daughters were very underweight. Not enough for a diagnosis, but those are clues. And, we all know how underdiagnosed celiac is, that public awareness is low, and even people/parents/family involved in diagnosis can remain in denial. And, many food intolerances are not yet recognized by the medical community.

I would have loved to have had the opportunity to strike up a conversation with the mother, but we were checking out that morning. Clearly, I did not feel comfortable chasing her down and bringing up the idea of food intolerances to her either, but I still feel I did a real disservice to the daughter, who was maybe 5,6?, as leaving some info at the desk was a shot in the dark.

I would fully expect a caregiver to report any issues going on with my child...they are an important ally in ensuring healthy emotional and physical development. They are in a good position to do this as they see your child for a good amount of time outside of your presence, and know enough about the child's typical behaviour to know if something's not right. It is too bad the aide didn't mention suspecting diabetes, as it would have given you a heads up for going to the doctor sooner.

The mother of the fussy girl, however, sounded like she was creating a bit of a scene. Perhaps she wanted all who may have witnessed her daughters' actions to know that she was embarrased about what happened in public. Being at one's wit's end isn't necessarily an immediate cry for help, but an outward expression of frustration. Personally, I find it more helpful to simply have others commisserate, rather than offer their opinion on how to solve the issue, or to tell me that I've handled something poorly. I especially appreciate the times when I'm told I've done a good job of keeping my cool in a stressful parenting situation.

Michelle

[eKatherine]

The mother of the fussy girl, however, sounded like she was creating a bit of a scene. Perhaps she wanted all who may have witnessed her daughters' actions to know that she was embarrased about what happened in public. Being at one's wit's end isn't necessarily an immediate cry for help, but an outward expression of frustration. Personally, I find it more helpful to simply have others commisserate, rather than offer their opinion on how to solve the issue, or to tell me that I've handled something poorly. I especially appreciate the times when I'm told I've done a good job of keeping my cool in a stressful parenting situation.

Michelle

Well, if it were the case that I thought the mother was putting on a scene for the purpose of embarrassing the daughter (for doing something that nobody else actually noticed) I would hardly commiserate with her. I do not consider public humiliation to be an effective child-rearing technique. That's just bad behavior on the mother's part, on par with a 2 year old having a tantrum, or maybe worse, as we adults are supposed to be in control of our behavior. I might take it as a call for input - it was her choice to create a public scene where none existed. But generally speaking, I would be embarrassed for the child and simply ignore this display, as paying attention will perpetuate the issue.

[gfp]

Intervening with someones kids is always risky ... but where do you draw the line?

I was queing for a phone card in a tobacconists a week or so ago and some very heavility pregant woman pushes through the long queue ... saying she's pregnant and can't queue (fair enough) and then buys 2 packets of cigarettes?????

Sure I'll let her through if she wants to buy stamps or a phone card at midnight but I felt a bit put out she was buying cigarettes!!!!!!

A long time ago (back when I lived in England briefly) I was at a supermarket and watched a mother packing her car with the baby in the trolley and the trolley on a step. Nothing was more certain than the trolley was going to slide off the step... and as I packed my car I watched the trolley fall off the step and mananged to catch the baby.

I would hazard a guess that had I offered my advice the mother would have told me to mind my own business but it was SO obvious this was going to happen. She didn't exactly thank me either.... though I guess that was mainly shock!

Perhaps the mother learned her lesson? Perhaps the week later she repeated it and the baby got brain damage?

Who knows?????

The problem is we are all genetically predesposed to caring for babies... if anything I am the person least disposed this way I know, I really detest being around babies but I still don't want to see them come to harm.