A Question About Enterolab

[IMResident]

>The numbers indicate otherwise, the numbers point more towards therapy alone or therapy AND drugs, >but not therapy OR drugs. Drugs only cover up a symptom. Without finding the cause you are just asking >for trouble. That cause could be chemical or could be phychological or both.

I think this is something we can both agree on. Therapy and drugs are equally effective, but only therapy relieves depression in the long term and treats the underlying cause. Many patients however go into remission after drug therapy. By the way, I wasn't aware lactose intolerance is linked to depression, or did you mean fructose intolerance.

Depression is rarely the only symptom of malnutrition. For example B12 deficiency produces megaloblastic anemia before it produces depression. Thiamine deficiency produces paresthesias, angina, peripheral neuropathy. So I guess my point is that when there are physical causes of depression (which is uncommon), they always produce other charatherisitc signs besides just the depression and can be easily identified in the vast majority of the cases.

>Oh, and prove this to me "Most of the time depression is just depression without a physical cause." I bet >you can't. Especially given how little we really do know about the brain and body.

Actually I can prove it. Most patients, about 65-70%, who are depressed improve significantly with their first antidepressant trial or therapy. 35% do not improve significantly with one antidepressant and for these agumentation therapy has been used. Also switching to another class of antidepressants is also helpful. This reduces the number of people who are treatement resistant to about 5% or less. These people (the 5%) usually have physical causes of depression.

[Jestgar]

Therapy and drugs are equally effective, but only therapy relieves depression in the long term and treats the underlying cause. Many patients however go into remission after drug therapy.

Depression is rarely the only symptom of malnutrition. For example B12 deficiency produces megaloblastic anemia before it produces depression. Thiamine deficiency produces paresthesias, angina, peripheral neuropathy. So I guess my point is that when there are physical causes of depression (which is uncommon), they always produce other charatherisitc signs besides just the depression and can be easily identified in the vast majority of the cases.

Most patients, about 65-70%, who are depressed improve significantly with their first antidepressant trial or therapy. 35% do not improve significantly with one antidepressant and for these agumentation therapy has been used. Also switching to another class of antidepressants is also helpful. This reduces the number of people who are treatement resistant to about 5% or less. These people (the 5%) usually have physical causes of depression.

Can you cite references for these?

[mle-ii]

By the way, I wasn't aware lactose intolerance is linked to depression, or did you mean fructose intolerance.

Open Original Shared Link

Full text here:

Open Original Shared Link

Depression is rarely the only symptom of malnutrition. For example B12 deficiency produces megaloblastic anemia before it produces depression. Thiamine deficiency produces paresthesias, angina, peripheral neuropathy. So I guess my point is that when there are physical causes of depression (which is uncommon), they always produce other charatherisitc signs besides just the depression and can be easily identified in the vast majority of the cases.

I don't agree, but that's ok.

Actually I can prove it. Most patients, about 65-70%, who are depressed improve significantly with their first antidepressant trial or therapy. 35% do not improve significantly with one antidepressant and for these agumentation therapy has been used. Also switching to another class of antidepressants is also helpful. This reduces the number of people who are treatement resistant to about 5% or less. These people (the 5%) usually have physical causes of depression.

All you proved to me was that Drs know how to cover up problems by taking care of the symptoms with drugs. Something I already know. Plus this is all subjective, perhaps folks just gave up on therapy because they weren't being helped and told the Dr they were cured. Give me a measurement one way or the other and I'll agree, otherwise you can't prove it.

Also, you do know that 2 of the top foods in the american diet are dairy and grains. I bet you also know that those two foods are broken down by the body to produce opioids. What happens when you give someone opoids or take them away, or take them chronically? What organs does this affect? What is this doing to our bodies long term? Can one get addicted to the opioids in these foods? If addicted to these foods does this explain why some folks cannot stop eating them? Is this addiction physical or mental? When this addicted person overeats, gets overweight and then depressed is this physical or mental?

Where does physical stop and mental begin? Again we don't know enough to say.

Mike

[mle-ii]

And here's another. Why do folks get depressed or sad during the fall/winter? Is this physical or mental?

[CarlaB]

Also, you do know that 2 of the top foods in the american diet are dairy and grains. I bet you also know that those two foods are broken down by the body to produce opioids. What happens when you give someone opoids or take them away, or take them chronically? What organs does this affect? What is this doing to our bodies long term? Can one get addicted to the opioids in these foods? If addicted to these foods does this explain why some folks cannot stop eating them? Is this addiction physical or mental? When this addicted person overeats, gets overweight and then depressed is this physical or mental?

A light just went off in my head ... I have felt bad ever since I eliminated casein, which I showed a sensitivity to. So, now I'm off all opiods. Am I feeling this bad for the past three months from withdrawal? Can it take that long?

[jcc]

For example B12 deficiency produces megaloblastic anemia before it produces depression. .

That is incorrect. Are they still teaching that in medical school? It is a dangerous, although common, misperception that keeps people from being diagnosed while their neurologic disease progresses.

Interestingly, hematologic and neurologic manifestations are occasionally dissociated. An inverse correlation in the severity of both manifestations has been suggested. In patients with neuropsychiatric abnormalities, 28% lack anemia or macrocytosis. Open Original Shared Link

The diagnosis of vitamin B12 deficiency has traditionally been based on low serum vitamin B12 levels, usually less than 200 pg per mL (150 pmol per L), along with clinical evidence of disease. However, studies indicate that older patients tend to present with neuropsychiatric disease in the absence of hematologic findings.5,6 Furthermore, measurements of metabolites such as methylmalonic acid and homocysteine have been shown to be more sensitive in the diagnosis of vitamin B12 deficiency than measurement of serum B12 levels alone.3,10-14

In a large study10 of 406 patients with known vitamin B12 deficiency, 98.4 percent had elevated serum methylmalonic acid levels, and 95.9 percent had elevated serum homocysteine levels (defined as three standard deviations above the mean). Only one patient out of 406 had normal levels of both metabolites, resulting in a sensitivity of 99.8 percent when methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels are used for diagnosis. Interestingly, 28 percent of the patients in this study had normal hematocrit levels, and 17 percent had normal mean corpuscular volumes. Open Original Shared Link

Also, you may want to read the full text of this article, 1999, but very good.

Open Original Shared Link

A Guide for the Primary Care Physician

Christopher F. Snow, MD

Arch Intern Med. 1999;159:1289-1298.

And from 2006:

Open Original Shared Link

Disorders of cobalamin (Vitamin B12) metabolism:

Emerging concepts in pathophysiology, diagnosis

and treatment , Lawrence R. Solomon *

"The spectrum of neurocognitive abnormalities in Cbl

deficiency is broad and the findings on MRI and electrophysiologic

examinations are diverse.36–45 Moreover,

neurologic changes often occur in the absence

of hematologic abnormalities.37,41,45,46 "

"Since cobalamin, methylmalonic acid and homocysteine levels fluctuate and neither predict nor preclude responses to cobalamin, cobalamin therapy is suggested for symptomatic patients regardless of the results of these diagnostic tests."

The differential diagnosis is quite extensive for a physical cause of depression....according to eMedicine on Depression. Let's not forget depressoin can be a side effect of several perscription drugs, as well. You can check the Open Original Shared Link for that.

Not to say that antidepressants wouldn't sometimes help even when there is an identifiable cause, but isn't it usually best to find and treat the underlying cause whenever possible (hopefully resulting in resolution of the symptoms), rather than just treat the symptom~ allowing the underlying disease process to progress?

That isn't to deny that antidepressants can be most useful and necessary for some patients, but how about as a last resort, not a first resort.

IM, Your mother is an adult with a mind of her own, and she was under the care of many physicians for many years. Responsibility for her health decisions lies between her and her doctors...nobody else.

Many of us know all too well how difficult it is to watch loved ones suffer and refuse the treatment we believe would help them. Having an alcoholic mother, I am familiar with this on an intimate level. The bottom line is we have no control over other people's decisions and choices, even when we love them dearly. My young adult daughter also refuses a gluten free diet that I believe would benefit her greatly. I've learned to accept that. Her life, her choice.

I, for one, applaud your mother for getting out and looking for possible underlying causes for her depression and any other symptoms that her doctors were unable to help her with. I'm not convinced she isn't gluten sensitive, or that she wouldn't possibly benefit from a variety of nutritional supplements, but my opinion bears no weight whatsoever in her case.

You said she saw about 10 different doctors in about a year, and all of them told her that she had anxiety or depression. Did she actually refuse treatment for depression, or didn't they offer treatment? And even if she refused treatment she was offered, it was her choice to do so.

My mother refused treatment for her alcoholism for a decade, and until it nearly killed her... three times. She suffered lifelong depression as well, and the doctors were happy to refill her prescriptions for valium and whatever else was popular in her day, but they didn't finally acknowledge and offer to treat the alcoholism (of course they 'knew') until the first time it almost killed her. Depression/ Alcoholism...another chicken/egg scenario.

I think you need to accept that your mother's life and health decisions are her own, and let it go. It is a hard thing to do, but the right thing to do.

Cara

P.S. I saw eight different types of specialists over 3-5 years. My PCP did think I was nuts because I kept coming back with more bizarre complaints, and almost nothing showed up on any of the tests, except maybe my harmless PVC's. In any case, she sent me for a neuropysch evalution, and I went because I had nothing to lose. All of my symptoms were subjective complaints..things I felt, but they couldn't see. Lucky for me, it was THIS doctor who found my B12 deficiency. I also found a new PCP because when I asked WHY I might be B12 deficient, she shrugged her shoulders and said, "some people just are".

[mle-ii]

A light just went off in my head ... I have felt bad ever since I eliminated casein, which I showed a sensitivity to. So, now I'm off all opiods. Am I feeling this bad for the past three months from withdrawal? Can it take that long?

What do you mean by feeling bad? What are your symptoms?

As far as how long, 3 months seems like too long for withdrawal symptoms, but this isn't something I know much about.

Here's more on what I'm taking about:

Open Original Shared Link

[CarlaB]

What do you mean by feeling bad? What are your symptoms?

As far as how long, 3 months seems like too long for withdrawal symptoms, but this isn't something I know much about.

Here's more on what I'm taking about:

Open Original Shared Link

Total fatigue. My doc thinks it's adrenal fatigue.

[daffadilly]

Carla are you taking B12?

Mike you have such great posts!!! Thank You

I can see with IMR...'s thinking how the medical profession is unable to do anything but push pills. I wonder what wonderful trip those anti-depressant pill manufacturers take them on? Oh, sorry, I forgot they do not go on trips, they are inconvenienced & have to travel to the conference destination. The hotels in Hawaii have huge conference and banquet rooms that has room for them all.

I have sat thru a few of those meetings myself and there was plenty of money that was spent on the event. Think of being entertained by some King & you get the idea. About 15 years ago the big thing was which drugs all the baby boom women needed to take for hormone replacement and menopause. Wow, those were some great speakers & you could see how their drug could help you alright. I was thinking of them for myself so you know what I did?

I started talking to the doctor's wives & you know which meds they were on?

They were not taking any meds, & remember they get all their meds free, so I thought, hummmm, guess I do not need them either. Thank goodness, after all the ill effects were published 15 years later, I had never taken hormone replacement. A lot of women that took hormones were left a lot worse health wise, or died.

A pity the medical profession seems to get a mind set by the time they get out of medical school. They have so many facts to learn and it seems that they have a set amount of choices for a given situation and are totally unable to think for themselves.

Yes, 36 years ago my doctor laughed at me because I was buying rice crackers for my baby that had diarrhea & yes, he told me that food was not making me sick, "that is just impossible", well I knew it was making me sick, so I quit going to him!!!!

[Guest Robbin]

First of all, daffadilly, I am so sorry about the problems you are having with your son. I have a son like him-if you tell him something is black, he will say white-just to contradict you and not admit Mom is sometimes right. I thank God mine doesn't have kids yet, but his own health is in jeopardy (type 1 diabetic).

I have the DQ-1 gene too. I have so many health issues --suffice to say that half my life was lost to illness. There are many family members with neuro problems, mental illness, diabetes (type 1 & 2), miscarriages, etc. Most of my family members have been put on antidepressants and diagnosed with IBS at one time or another.

When I first approached my dr. with my symptoms, the first thing he asked me was, "Are you depressed?" Most doctors I have been to come around to that --Yes, I am depressed because I am sick!! Wouldn't you be depressed if you had joint pain so bad you could barely walk sometimes, had some days where all you did was go back and forth to the bathroom with D at times 15 or 16 visits, had balance problems, miscarriage, bone malformation, tooth problems, migraines, losing my eyesight, etc..??? I stopped eating gluten, and stopped having D. Unfortunately, the damage has been going on for awhile and some the damage will stay. This is the story many of us have.

Did you know that 95% of serotonin we produce in our bodies is manufactured in the intestine? If you have intestinal problems, of course you will be in a state of chemical imbalance. That only makes sense. Many of my friends have experienced the same thing--If they go to the doctor with something that is not a "quick fix" and easy to dx., they are put on antidepressants and scooted out the door. Too much work and bother to treat them as individuals and really listen.

Sure, some of us need antidepressants --with such depletion of serotonin and many of the other hormones that are produced in the intestines, it only makes sense that supplementation is needed. A diabetic who no longer produces islet cells needs insulin supplementation. What doesn't make sense to me is for the medical community to turn a blind eye to any other possible ways of diagnosing illness. Enterolab has helped a great number of people. I used them --but I also used my own mind and saw what a miracle the diet has done for me. Blood tests are reliable for positives, but what about the people who are IgA deficient?

The critics of Dr. Fine remind me of daffadilly's son (and mine) -Egotistical and narrow-minded-- and with a little bit of professional jealousy thrown in. EDIT:

I am not talking about anyone here, btw -I understand IMRes. point of view, and I am sorry your mom had to go through so much pain.

[gfp]

>The numbers indicate otherwise, the numbers point more towards therapy alone or therapy AND drugs, >but not therapy OR drugs. Drugs only cover up a symptom. Without finding the cause you are just asking >for trouble. That cause could be chemical or could be phychological or both.

I think this is something we can both agree on. Therapy and drugs are equally effective, but only therapy relieves depression in the long term and treats the underlying cause. Many patients however go into remission after drug therapy. By the way, I wasn't aware lactose intolerance is linked to depression, or did you mean fructose intolerance.

Depression is rarely the only symptom of malnutrition. For example B12 deficiency produces megaloblastic anemia before it produces depression. Thiamine deficiency produces paresthesias, angina, peripheral neuropathy. So I guess my point is that when there are physical causes of depression (which is uncommon), they always produce other charatherisitc signs besides just the depression and can be easily identified in the vast majority of the cases.

>Oh, and prove this to me "Most of the time depression is just depression without a physical cause." I bet >you can't. Especially given how little we really do know about the brain and body.

Actually I can prove it. Most patients, about 65-70%, who are depressed improve significantly with their first antidepressant trial or therapy. 35% do not improve significantly with one antidepressant and for these agumentation therapy has been used. Also switching to another class of antidepressants is also helpful. This reduces the number of people who are treatement resistant to about 5% or less. These people (the 5%) usually have physical causes of depression.

Define "improve significantly"?

Certainly a large percentage of patients taking psyhctropics change significantly but that doesn't mean they improve. They probably certainly complain less and are probably less assertive with their GP but that doesn't mean they have "improved significantly".

Indeed some classes of anti-depressants carry a fairly well defined increased suicide risk and most of them carry high dependancy risks and withdrawal.

Open Original Shared Link

Britain's biggest drugs firm has caved in dramatically and revealed research which shows a leading anti-depressant can cause children to attempt suicide.

In an astonishing u-turn, Glaxo-SmithKline finally published full details of nine scientific studies and two clinical reviews which expose the dangers posed to under-18s who take Seroxat.

Children on Seroxat are twice as likely to have suicidal thoughts than those on a dummy pill, it emerged.

Alarmingly, one study showed six youngsters on Seroxat wanted to kill themselves, compared to just one taking a placebo pill.

The drug was also linked to distressing side effects including hostility, insomnia, dizziness, tremors and emotional irritability.

I think jcc already covered B12 deficiency but

when there are physical causes of depression (which is uncommon)

As Mike said, is SAD physical?

Indeed I find it hard to beleive any cause of depression does not occur due to a chemical inbalance which is physical. Just because we don't understand the physical mechanism doesn't mean its not physical.

100 years ago (and less) we used physical lobotomies and today we use chemical ones.

We are still only incrementally closer to understanding the human brain than we were 100 yrs ago.

Anti-depressants "cure" all sorts of diseases because a patient without the energy to actually get out of bed doesn't continue calling thier GP.

[IMResident]

>Define "improve significantly"?

>Certainly a large percentage of patients taking psyhctropics change significantly but that doesn't mean >they improve. They probably certainly complain less and are probably less assertive with their GP but that >doesn't mean they have "improved significantly".

Improve significantly means a 50% or more improvement in the symptoms of depression as measured by the depression questionaire I think it's called BDM or BDI. This is an objective improvement. Patients actually improve in the assetivness category.

>As Mike said, is SAD physical?

>Indeed I find it hard to beleive any cause of depression does not occur due to a chemical inbalance which >is physical. Just because we don't understand the physical mechanism doesn't mean its not physical.

How do you explain then that psychotherapy is equally effective to antidepressants and cure about 60% of depressed patients. Psychotherapy, for example cognitive-behavioural therapy tries to modify the negative thinking patterns of depression, for example the "I can't do it, so why even try" mentality that is so prevelant in people with depression. A large part of what's going on in the body is controled by the mind. for example sadness, and anxiety or even negative expectations about the future lead to the production of hormones in the hypothalamus/pituitary that have significant detrimental effects on everything from the immune system to the bones.

>I can see with IMR...'s thinking how the medical profession is unable to do anything but push pills. I >wonder what wonderful trip those anti-depressant pill manufacturers take them on?

Although most GPs prescribe pills, there's also psychotherapy, and for people who don't like putting synthetic things into their body there are natural amino acids that are equally potent antidepressants without many of the side effects of tradtional antidepressants, such as SAMe, 5-htp and the herb St. John's Wort.

P.S. I have to confess somtimes I go to drug company lunches.

[CarlaB]

Carla are you taking B12?

Yes, both subligually and in my b-complex.

[ravenwoodglass]

Anti-depressants "cure" all sorts of diseases because a patient without the energy to actually get out of bed doesn't continue calling thier GP.

They don't call from prisons either.

Drugs should be the last resort not the first. Talk therapy can be very helpful for many also, but...... I wasted years in therapy at $160 a pop 2 times a week. The end result being that my shrink pronounced me saner than he was after over 2 years and we then got referred to a endo because because the decision was that I had a metabolic problem. I was diagnosed with a sub illeal seizure disorder and put on meds that sure did 'cure' the depression. I went so manic that in the space of 6 months I left my DH, changed jobs twice, bought not 1 but 3 different cars (the last a clunker cause I wrecked the 2ond thinking I could go for a country drive in an ice storm, real pretty drive not another car track on the roads) and a house that should have been torn down. All on a $10 an hour job. But I wasn't depressed. It's too bad they didn't look for the cause of those seizures, celiac, they just marveled at how a person who consumed lots of fatty food could have such a low cholesteral level. And of course my D was 'normal' and was related to my periods. And just think my childrens experiences with doctor prescribed psychotropic drugs was even worse but I won't go into those.

I repeat, drugs should be the last resort not the first as they commonly are in this country. We are a country that thinks it knows everything and we concentrate on symptom relief and an instant fix. Some things take a little bit of searching and unfortunately the quick reach for a prescription pad, especially with our children is disgraceful.

[whoknows]

OH Pleeeezzz...!!!

I won't even waste my time going to an MD anymore. After wasting years, feeling like $&*@, and spending $$$$ I've had it. Countless meds and many many docs who do not listen made my decision easy. I ordered Enterolabs complete panel today. When the medical profession has failed and we are forced to take matters into our own hands then someone like Dr. Fine needs to be recognized if for nothing else....the fact that gluten intolerance does exist. I have been gluten-free for 3 weeks and feeling better each day. Hopefully IMResident will be a better doc by exposing himself to forums and threads like this one.

[Nancym]

at least twitches, numbness and tingling get worse when I have diarrhoea. It's too fast for me to think it's nutritional. Do you have an explanation for that?

Wow, this is sounding familiar. I just had an episode of D that lasted a couple of weeks and I got this horrible twitch in my lower eyelid. Going on 2+ weeks now that sucker is jumping. That and tiny pinprick sensations in my hips and thighs. I jumped back onto the B12 and didn't have any relief. Restarted my B-complex and still didn't get relief. Finally went back to my multi-vit and I think (knock wood) I might have the twitch nailed.

[daffadilly]

NancyM, hello, tsk tsk, got back on your B12?!!!! Take that thing everyday !!!

[Nancym]

What can I say? I ran out!

[Lesliean]

In a perfect world the test would be definitive for the disease but the blood tests for celiac disease are not 100% specific nor sensitive.

� % of Sensitivity % of Specificity Predictive Value % Pos Predictive Value % Neg

EMA 97% 98% 97% 98%

ARA 65% 100% 100% 72%

IgG AGA 88% 92% 88% 92%

IgA AGA 52% 94% 87% 74%

Ema has a high sensitivity and specificity (according to the article posted at facs at this website) because it correlates to total villi atrophy. Anyone with a negative biopsy is considered negative for celiac disease. That still leaves undiagnosed ALL the people who have other organs targeted by gluten.

What you must grasp is that people with minimal villi damage (undetected by biopsy) sometimes have negative blood work and yet have systemic autoimmune syndrome. These people will have diabetes, neuropathy, thyroiditis... (over 200 disease processes) and yet untill they pass a threshold of illness they might test negative by blood test. The danger is that the damage is often irreversable.

So yes, your test is so great for detecting complete villi damage but will often not catch early celiac disease or a lot of the gluten intolerance where there are other targeted organs. Transglutaminase only becomes positive when the villi are completely damaged. Doctors love this test because it correlates to a positive biopsy but its like using the damage from a heart attack to diagnose heart disease. Too late.

That is why many of us support a gluten free trial in people who test negative on the above tests. And why so many of us support Dr. Fine. Please understand, people are testing negative, being told they are not celiac and dying of gluten intolerance. I sympathize with your mom's experience with a gluten free trial but there is no easy test for this condition and more people are being harmed by not taking a gluten free trial or doing Enterolab testing.

Like me they might test negative and be told they do not have celiac disease even though they remain quite ill and untreated. I did not listen to my doctors who said I was negative for celiac disease and within 6 months of giving up gluten was completely off Prevacid (2 years) with no reflux, off all asthma medicine and asthma gone (7 years and as much as 1780mg Flovent a day), heart beat regular, cough and voice loss gone, hypoglycemia gone, digestive problems gone (I had thought they were normal)... (too many symptoms to list all). And please don't say that patients should just ask for the full panel. Most people don't have a grasp of the information. With gluten intolerance, most doctors don't have a grasp of the disease and its many manifestations.

My doctor is frustrated that so many patients like me test negative. I am hoping to get him on the gluten free trial bandwagon becuase his instincts are correct and these people probably do have gluten intolerance. They just don't have complete villi damage.

I need more time to read the complete postings but now that I read your story I realize where you are coming from. But really, don't you see more doctors tell patients their problems are in their minds then telling them they don't have the answer yet? My doctors told me; "Maybe you are just getting older", "You have allergies and will have to take care of them yourself", "I don't know what a specialist would do that I haven't done". Meanwhile my peak flow was 60% of what it is today.

Why do you say the 5% of depressed patients that do not resolve with medication have physical conditions causing the depression when the other 95% who respond to treatment could also have an underlying physical condition resulting in depression (ie-gluten intolerance)? That seems to be an American 'treat the symptoms' logic. Treat the whole patient. Look for patterns. Look for underlying causes.

Leslie

[Shalia]

IMRes,

And one thing I don't understand is, do you think people wake up one morning with flattened villi? Or do you think there's a spectrum, that at *some point* the damage has to be starting, but it's not going to come up on the average test yet?

Because I think most of life is a spectrum. And maybe the person who's blood is negative but has a great dietary response just hasn't had a chance to screw up their intestines to the point of malnutrition yet. Is that person any less of a Celiac? Maybe by conventional diagnostics, yes, but are they REALLY? Should we tell them to keep eating gluten for another three months/years so they can screw up their intestines badly enough to test positive?

That makes no sense.

Shalia

[gf4life]

In the case of the study there were 24 people with celiac and 60 controls (completely healthy people without any intestinal or gluten sensitivity symptoms). The fecal testing found about 22 of the celiac people positive for celiac as well as about 20 of the completely healthy people.

This means that if this test is applied to the real world where the prevelance of celiac/gluten sensitivity is lets say around 5% of the population (a high number but let's say that's true), it will find 30% of the normal healthy people positive for celiac disease. In other words if you get a positive result from enterolab it is likely to be 85% false positive and 15% true positive, making it a truly useless test.

I don't know if anyone specifically addressed this issue yet, since I am only on page 3 of 7 in reading this thread, but I had to comment here.

IMResident makes the statement of "if you get a positive result from enterolab it is likely to be 85% false positive and 15% true positive, making it a truly useless test. ", and this is wrong.

He cannot take the results of a study done using one lab's fecal antibody tests and apply the results to a completely different fecal antibody test done by a different lab in a different country. If he were using results of a study done using Enterolabs tests, then he could make any statement he wants to regarding this issue, but until then his comments on the validity of Enterolab's tests have no merit.

Just my opinion.

Later on someone brought up this point and he said all the fecal tests are done the same, but how could that be. The study he is talking about used 2 different fecal tests, and they might not be the same as Enterolab's test. Why would they need to use 2 different tests in their study if they are all the same??

I am not saying that there isn't the possibility that Enterolab might have some false positives, I just don't think it is as high as IMResident says it is based of someone elses test results. And I don't want to even get into the issue of the blood tests and their accuracy (or I should say lack of it)!

[chrissy]

[What you must grasp is that people with minimal villi damage (undetected by biopsy) will have negative blood work and yet have systemic autoimmune syndrome]

this thread is not an arguement that i want to get involved in------but i just wanted to say that the above statement is not true.

my girls had positive blood work with no villi damage detected by biopsy. the only thing that could have possibly indicated celiac from their biopsies is that one of them had an increased amount of intraepithelial lymphocytes----but only in one spot.

[Lesliean]

Chrissy, sorry I was unclear about minimal villi flattening and negative blood work. Many 'healthy' people are picked up by positve blood work but don't have a positive biopsy. In the past they would have been told to eat wheat. That they don't have celiac disease.

But there are also people who have autoimmune diseases, little or no villi flattening, and negative blood work. I just want people like me who have negative blood work to be considered for gluten intolerance and not told they do not have it.

Leslie