Anyone Have A Challenging Family Member?

[Guest cassidy]

My mother came for Christmas and just left this morning. I'm an only child and she has been divorced for years and doesn't have any other family or close friends, so as she says - I am her everything. She came down as always to have Christmas with me and my husband's pretty large family.

Since I was a child she treated me as an equal - I made out checks to pay the bills and she consulted me about making decisions at a very young age. Ever since I got out of the house I have been trying to put some space in the relationship because I don't want to be her decision-making partner. I don't want to tell her things about my household and marriage because those are things between me and my husband and I don't want to know her personal details because it isn't my business. Whenever I back away she cries and tells me what a horrible daughter I am so it is a balancing act that I try to maintain from afar. When she visits it is very difficult because she stays with us and really smothers me. I refuse to give in to her and share personal things with her because it doesn't make me feel good, so she ends up crying and pouting and things get very uncomfortable. She also doesn't like most of my husband's family and loves to talk about them when we leave them their house. Those people are my family too and I don't want her to talk badly about them, she also gets mad when I ask her not to do that.

I'm pregnant and she is acting like she is the one having the baby. I don't want her to come down again before the baby comes because it is stressful, not helpful. I don't want her to spend money she doesn't have buying the baby stuff that I have to say I like 100 times or she gets upset. I don't even want her to come when the baby comes. She knows this and she tried to go behind my back and talk to my husband asking him if she could come back down.

I really want to enjoy family holidays and not have this stressful situation all the time. She keeps saying she will visit once a month when the baby comes, and I won't be able to handle that. I end up feeling bad because she leaves upset because I push her away all weekend just to get a bit of space.

Any advice?

Anyone else deal with a relative like this?

[Helena]

This is a tough situation---it sounds to me like you're doing everything you can to try to establish some boundaries. I'd suggest trying to get your mom to go to counselling sessions with you---from what you're writing here it seems like your mom isn't going to listen to you. But if a third person tells her maybe she'll start to understand your perspective? Good luck with all of this!

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Oh, how frustrating for you.

You sound very sensitive and understanding of her situation (YOU ARE NOT A HORRIBLE DAUGHTER!), so I probably don't need to point out that she sounds terribly lonely. It also sounds like she does not have good social skills,a t least, not with you! Very tough situation for you.

The following is just me thinking out loud (on computer, anyway). If anything I write is totally off-base, I apologize!

Any way of simultaneously meeting her halfway and heading her off at the same time? As far as the baby gifts go, could you say something like, "Mom, I would just love it if you could get us a ___________--here are 3 pictures of different versions that I really like. And every time we use it, I'll think of you!"" (And then be sure to pick something out that has some kind of importance, so she feels like she is really helping.)

It can be such a vicious circle that the closer she wants to be with you, the more you feel you need to push her away--which makes her need even stronger. It doesn't sound like she has the strength to break the cycle, so it's up to you--but you need to find a way to fill her need for love and closeness without sacrificing your own very normal need for some space and privacy!

Her picking on your husband's family sounds like she has MAJOR self-esteem problems--and possibly, that she feels left out of your life and replaced by them. Can you plan any fun kind of outings with her, your MIL, and SIL (if you have one)? Is it possible to confide in them your difficulties with your mother? Are they sensitive enough to want to help out, or do they dislike her? (If they dislike her, surely she must have picked up on that, which would make it all the more devastating to her.)

As awful as it may seem, the best plan might be to treat her like tantrumy toddler and try and head off any problems before they start. With tantrumy toddlers, we never take them to the grocery store when they are hungry or tired, and we don't take them to the toy store if we know we are not going to buy something for them. In short, we make sure they are happy and we don't stress them out unnecessarily.

With your mom, the equivalent might be to plan a visit with lots of things your mother enjoys (but NOT the things you are uncomfortable with), maybe a lot of things that are just the 2 of you. Things like going to a play, a concert, or a movie are great because she can't talk (i.e., complain) during them, but it still counts as time spent with you! And then, if she HAS to be critical, she can criticize the movie instead of your in-laws.

And can you plan something really fun for her to DO while you have your down-time? Maybe get her a symphony ticket or something? I can see how it would be awfully tough for her to travel to visit you, only spend a few days, and then feel like her daughter can't stand her and needs to get away from her. It just makes her need for your attention and approval even stronger.

I understand you don't want a stress like that when the baby comes, but I also understand how she must want to be there at that special mother-daughter time. My mother (who is the Queen of Criticism in our family) came for the birth of my third child, and was there during the birth, and as much as meant to her (the world), I think it meant even more to me.

MIght there be some way of working this out so that you can stand to have her there? For a mother to be rejected at such a special time would be painful to anyone, but for someone with your mother's issues, it must be sheer torture. (I know, I know, it's sheer torture for YOU to have her there!)

Does it sound awfult o say that you mioght need to hone your manipulation skills? If you set rules for her, that's probably too much for her to handle, so you need to sort of steer her away from the things you hate (like discussing your in-laws or personal things) by steering her toward the things you can deal with.

If she needs you to repeat 100 times that you like a gift from her, could that possibly mean that you are not very convincing the first 99 times? Or is she old-fashioned and looking for a hand-written thank you note? (Now that I think about it, I probably should be writing more thank-you notes to MY mom!) Or is she picking up on your not liking the gift?

Anyway, the difficult relatives in our family are difficult in very different ways than your mom (and who knows, they may think I'm the difficult one!). I guess every family has its own craziness, huh?

Hope the new year brings some better times for you!

[Fiddle-Faddle]

P.S. Congrats on the pregnancy!

[Ursa Major]

Cassidy, Fiddle-Faddle has some excellent points there. I just want to add the grandmother perspective. I am not always able to see my grandchildren once a month, because they live too far away. But if my daughters would tell me that I am not allowed to visit and see them when I am able, I would be very upset.

And believe me, I know I am not an easy person to have around. I am very insecure when I am in somebody else's house, because I don't understand their rules, and I am afraid of doing or saying something wrong (and I always seem to do that). But I don't want to miss my grandchildren's childhood, and so I go for two to four days about every two months anyway.

Are you sure you can't handle your mother coming once a month? That is not very much. It would be very hard for her if you deprive her of her grandchild. She must feel very rejected by you. Which would make her even more clingy!

[Tim-n-VA]

Just one more alternative view:

One son was two years, the other two months when my mom died. All during their childhood, I was in the Army and they saw grandparents for a week about once a year or so.

I don't know the exact dynamics you are dealing with but would have tolerated a lot of annoyance for my sons to have known their grandmother.

[Guest cassidy]

She lives 14 hours away, so it isn't like it is an easy trip - it takes all day whether you drive or fly and she works on the weekends so it isn't like she has tons of time to come visit. The thing is if she is around we are both very uncomfortable because neither one of us is happy. We never have good visits and she doesn't think so either. I give up my bed and end up sleeping on the couch and being pregnant that wasn't fun this time - I never slept more than 4 hours any night.

She likes to keep busy so I try to have projects to do and I let her wash my dishes (which drives me crazy) and do things around my house because it keeps her busy and she can't sit still. She always wants to just spend time with me, not my husband or his family, but she only comes down now at special occasions when the family is around and I can't kick my husband out. We have to pay for her plane ticket so I hesitate to take her other places when she is here because we have to pay for all that as well. I only want to buy her a ticket every once in a while for financial reasons.

I realize that sometimes you have to put someone else's feelings before your own, but I won't give in to her. I usually just don't talk because I can't think of anything easy to talk about. She looked at the gifts I registered for and questioned me on all of them. Was I sure this was the best of this type of thing? Have a tried it out before? What type of this thing do I want? Have I really thought it through? It is just frustrating that she says she is coming to help me when the baby comes when in reality she isn't doing anything to help me, she is doing what she wants to do. When do I get to be selfish and say I'm the pregnant one that doesn't need to be stressed out, so you can't stay in my house?

She will come down when the baby comes, but hopefully a few days afterwards. We have weekend plans every weekend until then and if she comes before it means not going to a wedding or birthday party or things we have already planned.

She just needs constant reassurance. She thinks that people don't like her if they don't act like she is the most important person in the world. She has also done horrible things like when I was a vegetarian (for several years) she ground up chicken in a food processor and mixed it in with a sauce so I couldn't tell it was in there and said there was no meat in the dish, but later admitted it. She also likes to bring up subjects in front of other people that she knows the person doesn't like to discuss to watch them squirm. I walk around on pins and needles wondering what she will bring up next.

Glad the visit is over and hopefully she won't be back for a few months. It is just hard when she only had me and she trys to rely on me for everything when I'm trying to have my own life.

[Guest cassidy]

She lives 14 hours away, so it isn't like it is an easy trip - it takes all day whether you drive or fly and she works on the weekends so it isn't like she has tons of time to come visit. The thing is if she is around we are both very uncomfortable because neither one of us is happy. We never have good visits and she doesn't think so either. I give up my bed and end up sleeping on the couch and being pregnant that wasn't fun this time - I never slept more than 4 hours any night.

She likes to keep busy so I try to have projects to do and I let her wash my dishes (which drives me crazy) and do things around my house because it keeps her busy and she can't sit still. She always wants to just spend time with me, not my husband or his family, but she only comes down now at special occasions when the family is around and I can't kick my husband out. We have to pay for her plane ticket so I hesitate to take her other places when she is here because we have to pay for all that as well. I only want to buy her a ticket every once in a while for financial reasons.

I realize that sometimes you have to put someone else's feelings before your own, but I won't give in to her. I usually just don't talk because I can't think of anything easy to talk about. She looked at the gifts I registered for and questioned me on all of them. Was I sure this was the best of this type of thing? Have a tried it out before? What type of this thing do I want? Have I really thought it through? It is just frustrating that she says she is coming to help me when the baby comes when in reality she isn't doing anything to help me, she is doing what she wants to do. When do I get to be selfish and say I'm the pregnant one that doesn't need to be stressed out, so you can't stay in my house?

She will come down when the baby comes, but hopefully a few days afterwards. We have weekend plans every weekend until then and if she comes before it means not going to a wedding or birthday party or things we have already planned.

She just needs constant reassurance. She thinks that people don't like her if they don't act like she is the most important person in the world. She has also done horrible things like when I was a vegetarian (for several years) she ground up chicken in a food processor and mixed it in with a sauce so I couldn't tell it was in there and said there was no meat in the dish, but later admitted it. She also likes to bring up subjects in front of other people that she knows the person doesn't like to discuss to watch them squirm. I walk around on pins and needles wondering what she will bring up next.

Glad the visit is over and hopefully she won't be back for a few months. It is just hard when she only had me and she trys to rely on me for everything when I'm trying to have my own life.

[Ursa Major]

Cassidy, I didn't realize you even have to pay for her plane ticket! Doesn't she have any money at all? For her to demand to visit once a month if she can't even pay for her own ticket is a different matter. And you shouldn't have slept on the couch, either. She should have slept on the couch, since you need to be comfortable. It's uncomfortable enough being pregnant, without having to give up your bed.

Can't you buy one of those new inflatable beds with legs for her? We have one, and that is what one daughter and son-in-law slept on. They were very comfortable, and it really is just about as good as a normal bed.

What you have in your baby registry is none of your mother's business. If I was you, I wouldn't even have shown it to her.

I see that she is deceitful as well. My one daughter decided to be a vegetarian for a while, and while I didn't like it, I did my best to accommodate her when she came to visit. I wouldn't have dreamed about sneaking meat into her food!

Somebody mentioned counseling. I think your mother sounds depressed, and she obviously has very low self esteem. Maybe counseling would help her. Do you think she would consider it? And I mean, just her, wherever it is she lives. I used to have extremely low self esteem, and counseling has really helped me.

It might be somewhat easier once the baby is there. She can always hold the baby, which will stop her from doing anything else that annoys you.

[Guest Villanfam]

Are the parent/child roles reversed or what?!

I may be off the mark here (and forgive me if I am) but it sounds to me that she may be dealing with some mental illness issues. She sounds a lot like my MIL, who suffers from Paranoid Personality Disorder and some Delusional Disorders. She is overly clingy to my husband and hates being around other people, especially my family. She is an extremely jealous person.

If your Mom is dealing with some of these issues, you may need to try to be a little more patient with her as it is not entirely her fault. I don

[Guest cassidy]

Are the parent/child roles reversed or what?!

I may be off the mark here (and forgive me if I am) but it sounds to me that she may be dealing with some mental illness issues. She sounds a lot like my MIL, who suffers from Paranoid Personality Disorder and some Delusional Disorders. She is overly clingy to my husband and hates being around other people, especially my family. She is an extremely jealous person.

If your Mom is dealing with some of these issues, you may need to try to be a little more patient with her as it is not entirely her fault. I don

[Ursa Major]

Your mother sounds so much like my mother, it's scary. And I believe my mother was mentally ill as well. She was getting crazier the older she got. I never felt safe around her, even as a child. I also believe she had undiagnosed celiac disease.

Fortunately, because I immigrated to Canada, she was able to visit only once, and that was more than enough. Sadly, I don't miss her at all (she died in 1985). She was terribly abusive (mental abuse), and an awful mother.

So, I totally understand why you don't want to see her. It's hard to know what to suggest. But obviously, if you have to pay for her plane ticket, you can control how often she comes.

[tarnalberry]

She's being quite self-centered (in the bad way) and manipulative.

But have you talked to her - calmly and logically - about any of this? And by that, I specifically mean have you clearly identified the particular behaviors that you cannot accept and been clear about your expectations in those areas in their place?

I went through something quite shockingly similar with my father - but the two of us haven't talked in three years, aside from him emailing me the day before this christmas with a very unexpected one line email saying "merry christmas, hope all is well". It took a number of years for us to discuss these things, but when it finally came down to "here is what I not only expect, but must have for a minimum to be able to have a not-unhealthy relationship with you", and when he was unable to respect, or even accept, that, we parted ways.

Your mom and you might benefit from some family counseling together; a similar situation happened with my paternal grandmother and aunt, and that seemed to help them a lot. You might also look at the book "The Drama of the Gifted Child", and what you write about your childhood reminded me of some of what is described there and the effect of inappropriate (in role boundary ways, not anything more) parent/child relationships. It may not be a perfect fit, but may provide some insight.

Good luck. It's tough. It's disappointing. And it's so very hard to let go of the hope that "this time will be better". It sounds, though, like it's time to stop trying to take responsibility for her moods and do what you know you need to do for yourself.

[Guest cassidy]

I'm sure we would benefit from family counseling, but I don't think I care that much. If it was my husband or my child I would certainly try to make things right, but this is an ongoing battle that isn't what I want to focus on right now.

I don't like these visits and I fear that they may become more frequent (but Ursula you are right about me controlling the tickets). When she isn't here it doesn't bother me and I don't think need help dealing with this because I have learned to stand up to her and I realize these are her issues. I went to plenty of personal counseling about this and they said not to rescue her when she plays the victim and I don't give in anymore. It is just a constant battle.

Tarnalberry, I have tried talking to her in clear, reasonable ways. She cries and yells and hangs up on me and then we don't talk for a while. This has probably been going on for 15 years and it is the same thing over and over again. She thinks it is all me and that I am mean to cut her out of my life, even in small ways tjhat normal people don't wouldn't see as things they should even know. One counselor said that she doesn't see a difference between me and her and so she thinks she is entitled to know everything about me and be involved in all those decisions and vice versa.

It is just frustrating because I don't like having bad visits and they do upset me for a while before and afterwards. I don't want to be stressed out when my baby first comes home and we are trying to get to know each other and figure things out. I actually think it would be better if she lived closer and could come over for a few hours and then go home.

Thanks everyone for listening to me.

[tarnalberry]

I'm sure we would benefit from family counseling, but I don't think I care that much. If it was my husband or my child I would certainly try to make things right, but this is an ongoing battle that isn't what I want to focus on right now.

Totally understandable, and kudos for recognizing it. That, in itself, is liberating, I think. Though it does mean that you are deciding to not try one other thing that might fix this. In that end, you are deciding to allow this to continue further. That may be a totally valid decision for a number of different reasons, of course, but it something that helped me understand the situation with my dad before I was ready to cut ties with him.

I don't like these visits and I fear that they may become more frequent (but Ursula you are right about me controlling the tickets). When she isn't here it doesn't bother me and I don't think need help dealing with this because I have learned to stand up to her and I realize these are her issues.

So there's still a power play. (Easier to exert power over someone in person than long distance.) The trouble is that her issues are causing you issues (not the same sort, of course ), and there's always the question of how to deal with those issues that you now have - and if you choose not to address the root cause (for whatever reason, and I don't use this statement to imply that you should or shouldn't - it's a very personal decision), then all that's left is addressing the symptoms.

I went to plenty of personal counseling about this and they said not to rescue her when she plays the victim and I don't give in anymore. It is just a constant battle.

A particularly wearying kind, at least the ones I had. What intrigues me is that you say that you don't give in anymore. The cynic/analyst in me says "Well, you may not think you give in any more, but she's getting something out of this - attention, victimization, something - that is causing her to continue her behavior." Maybe that's not true, but it's what came to my mind.

Tarnalberry, I have tried talking to her in clear, reasonable ways. She cries and yells and hangs up on me and then we don't talk for a while. This has probably been going on for 15 years and it is the same thing over and over again. She thinks it is all me and that I am mean to cut her out of my life, even in small ways tjhat normal people don't wouldn't see as things they should even know. One counselor said that she doesn't see a difference between me and her and so she thinks she is entitled to know everything about me and be involved in all those decisions and vice versa.

I believe you on that one. I wasn't that long for my father and I... maybe seven? I've also been called a horrible daughter and told that I was just trying to cut him out. He also wanted to be making decisions for me, though he would originally say other wise. Etc, etc, etc. Is she narcissistic too? I would definitely encourage reading that book, if you didn't in your studies, as your last sentence here - about not separating herself from you - makes me think it might help.

The thing is, and you probably already do this, the crying and yelling just have to be ignored. They're attention getting, self-centered, manipulative behaviors that do not generally include any productive communication. (I know you know all this, having studied it for so long, but it's getting me to my point.) If the vast majority of your interactions are like this - ones you need to ignore (and the belittling comments are ones as well, of course), then you're relationship is based on you ignoring her, and her trying to get your attention. What's the point? Is it, at that point, causing you more mental harm to play parent to your mother, ignoring her "slings and arrows", and enabling her behavior? If so, then a more significant change in dynamic needs to take place.

I'm sorry she doesn't listen to calm discussions. Doesn't really suprise me, but if she cannot acknowledge that her behavior is a problem, then it will seem like nothing but a personal attack to her. Ya can't really win.

It is just frustrating because I don't like having bad visits and they do upset me for a while before and afterwards. I don't want to be stressed out when my baby first comes home and we are trying to get to know each other and figure things out. I actually think it would be better if she lived closer and could come over for a few hours and then go home.

Thanks everyone for listening to me.

Perhaps she can stay in a hotel at that particular time. Maybe I'm off base, but I'm seeing a lot of sparing her feelings at your expense. (Though "a lot" is an extraordinarily relative/subjective term. ) This sort of compromise is going to hurt her feelings, but what - other than you being her ideal perfect daughter and sharing your whole life with you and letting her pass judgement on everything - is going to not hurt her feelings?

And, to make a long post longer, I should add that her behavior is something that could well be picked up by your coming kids, not to mention the tension between the two of you. So while I accept it might be hard on her to limit her access, there may be very sound reasons for doing so, that only you can decide. (Ok... putting on my flame suit... I'm ready for it... shoot! )

[Ursa Major]

Cassidy, I had been thinking yesterday after posting, that it might be easier if she lives closer (not too close, though). Is it maybe possible to get her to move? I don't know what she does for a job, and if that would be an option, of course.

But if she could come by car, and not have to stay over night (and she had to pay for her own gas), she would feel more like she could come if she wanted, and wouldn't be so desperate.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Such intelligent, thoughtful advice from so many people! I learn so much onthis board, it is amazing.

The only thing I can add is to remember that she is not choosing to be an evil, horrible hag--she can't help her own limitations and/or issues and/or mental illness (if that is the case).

That doesn't make it any easier for you, though, does it?

[Michi8]

Cassidy, your mother sounds like mine in some ways. My mother has self-esteem issues, is jealous of most of the women in her life (including me), and takes absolutely everything personally. We had a strained relationship when I was growing up, and it was very difficult to have her visit when I lived far away. She and my dad would come to stay with us for a week at a time, in a tiny condo. The visits were often uncomfortable. It has gotten a little easier now that we've moved back to the same town...I can see her for short bursts of time.

She has a tendency to meddle and talk about me and my brothers behind our backs. She is a compulsive hoarder and shopper, and I believe she is also a compulsive liar...always coming up with untrue stories about people and herself. It's caused friction between my brothers and myself too...most recently when I ended up passing along unwanted baby items to my brother, because she had said they wanted them. He was angry at me for sending this unwanted stuff, and I was upset for having my generosity rejected. She did not see her role in what was going on at all...I really think she believes the stories she makes up!

In terms of you having your mother around when the baby is born, it is something you need to decide for yourself and stick with it, because it can make a big difference in you birth experience. I had my mother with me for my second birth, and, although she meant well and really wanted to be helpful, her presence ended up being a very negative force on my birth...and it culminated in an unnecessary and very much unwanted c-section. For my third birth, she came to help with the other two kids, but knew ahead of time that I would need all family out of the house during the birth (it was a homebirth, and having family all around kept me from going into labour.) Apparently, she took huge offense when she was politely asked to leave to give me space for my labour to start and still is carrying a grudge about it today (my in-laws and children left too...and they had no issue with it!) She actually threatened to sever all ties with me because of it. She failed to understand that the birth was not about her...and I think she has a hard time with not being the centre of attention.

Michelle

[draeko]

I'm sure we would benefit from family counseling, but I don't think I care that much. If it was my husband or my child I would certainly try to make things right, but this is an ongoing battle that isn't what I want to focus on right now.

I don't like these visits and I fear that they may become more frequent (but Ursula you are right about me controlling the tickets). When she isn't here it doesn't bother me and I don't think need help dealing with this because I have learned to stand up to her and I realize these are her issues. I went to plenty of personal counseling about this and they said not to rescue her when she plays the victim and I don't give in anymore. It is just a constant battle.

Tarnalberry, I have tried talking to her in clear, reasonable ways. She cries and yells and hangs up on me and then we don't talk for a while. This has probably been going on for 15 years and it is the same thing over and over again. She thinks it is all me and that I am mean to cut her out of my life, even in small ways tjhat normal people don't wouldn't see as things they should even know. One counselor said that she doesn't see a difference between me and her and so she thinks she is entitled to know everything about me and be involved in all those decisions and vice versa.

It is just frustrating because I don't like having bad visits and they do upset me for a while before and afterwards. I don't want to be stressed out when my baby first comes home and we are trying to get to know each other and figure things out. I actually think it would be better if she lived closer and could come over for a few hours and then go home.

Thanks everyone for listening to me.

Hi,my mother is the same as yours except she is addicted to prescription drugs. That's a whole other story.

I am currently reading a book called "Emotional Blackmail". It teaches boundaries for people like that and is helping me. When I was pregnant its like it turned on some switch in my mom. She was so bad it caused lots of stress for my family.

Hope this helps.

Melanie

[CarlaB]

she probably had a personality disorder but I don't remember which one.

Could it be borderline personality disorder? I suspect my mother has this ... I had to cut off the relationship when she was trying to ruin my relationship with my father and when my kids were wondering why she was so emotionally abusive to me. I jumped through hoops for 20 years after I got married, but I could do it no longer once I got sick. I have no relationship with either of my sisters because of her, I wasn't going to lose Dad, too.

I'm not encouraging you to do what I did as I feel like cutting things off is not the best way, but sometimes it ends up being the only answer. I never, ever made her happy with me.

Sorry you're dealing with the same garbage I did ... it's no fun. I would not give up my bed ... you get the couch, but what about your husband? Also, if YOU'RE buying the plane ticket, ONE per year, FOUR day visit. Remember, she won't be happy no matter what, so at least do what's best for your family. It's not your fault.

[missy'smom]

I'm an only child and she has been divorced for years and doesn't have any other family or close friends, so as she says - I am her everything.

Since I was a child she treated me as an equal - she consulted me about making decisions at a very young age. Ever since I got out of the house I have been trying to put some space in the relationship because I don't want to be her decision-making partner. Whenever I back away she cries and tells me what a horrible daughter I am so it is a balancing act that I try to maintain from afar.

I have experienced the above as well as many other things you did not touch on(with my father). You didn't mention it but I'm concerned about what will happen when your mother is no longer able to or chooses not to take care of herself. I bring this up because my father has similar issues and when I was not much more than 30 and my son was barely in kindergarden(my father was just a little over 50 I had to deal with his care(and still am). I didn't expect to have to at that age and he didn't plan for his care(because his daughter is such a good girl, she'll take care of him). After much prodding from me he checked into long term care insurance but he no longer qualifies for it because a health condition. I will not be financially responsible for him. I have a child to put through college and have to plan for my own future so my son will not be burdened with my care. He has legit. health problems that do affect his life but most of the situation he's in is a matter of his choice. For me to be able to overcome the past and do better for the next generation I will have to stop being his care giver, wife, mother in the near future and for the most part cut ties with him. This is very sad. I have done it as long as I have so that my son could have a grandfather, which he's good at even though he's not a good father. If you haven't already, I advise you to plan for what you will do when this situation presents itself. I know you've got alot on your plate right now. I use to think I was alone in what I've dealt with but the more I read on these boards, the more I realize I'm not.

[Guest cassidy]

So there's still a power play. (Easier to exert power over someone in person than long distance.) The trouble is that her issues are causing you issues (not the same sort, of course ), and there's always the question of how to deal with those issues that you now have - and if you choose not to address the root cause (for whatever reason, and I don't use this statement to imply that you should or shouldn't - it's a very personal decision), then all that's left is addressing the symptoms.

Now she doesn't come very often so it is about two weeks a year that this bothers me. A couple days before, during and after the visits. I don't know how anyone copes well with having someone unhappy in their house.

A particularly wearying kind, at least the ones I had. What intrigues me is that you say that you don't give in anymore. The cynic/analyst in me says "Well, you may not think you give in any more, but she's getting something out of this - attention, victimization, something - that is causing her to continue her behavior." Maybe that's not true, but it's what came to my mind.

I think it must be victimization. I do stand up to her and when it is about little things maybe she feels she is the victim then. I think most of the time people want someone to validate their opinions and if you keep turning to someone who usually disagrees with your opinions, maybe you feel like a victim, I guess other than not getting into a conversation I don't know how to stand up to her without disagreeing and therefore making her feel wrong and victimized.

I believe you on that one. I wasn't that long for my father and I... maybe seven? I've also been called a horrible daughter and told that I was just trying to cut him out. He also wanted to be making decisions for me, though he would originally say other wise. Etc, etc, etc. Is she narcissistic too? I would definitely encourage reading that book, if you didn't in your studies, as your last sentence here - about not separating herself from you - makes me think it might help.

I read the reviews of this book on Amazon and I'm not sure it applies. I don't think that I seek approval or have any self esteem type issues. I have posted about my husband not being the most compassionate which has made celiac even more challenging. I keep telling him that I need him to relate to me in certain ways and to do certain things for me and he has come around. I don't ever give up and not get my needs met just because I'm met with resistance. I do see that in some aspects I mother him in the sense that I am the "household manager" and basically take care of everything around the house. It works well because I'm in charge and I can delegate and I don't have to get frustrated that he doesn't see things that need to be done. On the other hand, he is incredibly mature about somethings such as money so he is the "financial manager" and I trust him to take care of that without me having to be very involved. We work with each other's strengths and I don't see any unhealthy patterns in our relationship.

Perhaps she can stay in a hotel at that particular time. Maybe I'm off base, but I'm seeing a lot of sparing her feelings at your expense. (Though "a lot" is an extraordinarily relative/subjective term. ) This sort of compromise is going to hurt her feelings, but what - other than you being her ideal perfect daughter and sharing your whole life with you and letting her pass judgement on everything - is going to not hurt her feelings?

I think that when she is in my house my manners win out over my desire to keep things with her in check. She did teach me to be a good hostess and I think that is why it is hard to stand up to her and not let things bother me in person whereas on the phone I'm very good at that. We have having family come in town a few weeks after the baby is due and we plan to get him baptized then. I just thought that maybe I could buy her a ticket for that weekend so she can be a part of that celebration and come down a few weeks after he gets here. This way we will have family stuff to do which she will hate but will take up time and I will know that I have some alone time with the baby and not be stressed about her visit when I'm trying to get settled.

I have experienced the above as well as many other things you did not touch on(with my father). You didn't mention it but I'm concerned about what will happen when your mother is no longer able to or chooses not to take care of herself. I bring this up because my father has similar issues and when I was not much more than 30 and my son was barely in kindergarden(my father was just a little over 50 I had to deal with his care(and still am). I didn't expect to have to at that age and he didn't plan for his care(because his daughter is such a good girl, she'll take care of him). After much prodding from me he checked into long term care insurance but he no longer qualifies for it because a health condition. I will not be financially responsible for him. I have a child to put through college and have to plan for my own future so my son will not be burdened with my care. He has legit. health problems that do affect his life but most of the situation he's in is a matter of his choice. For me to be able to overcome the past and do better for the next generation I will have to stop being his care giver, wife, mother in the near future and for the most part cut ties with him. This is very sad. I have done it as long as I have so that my son could have a grandfather, which he's good at even though he's not a good father. If you haven't already, I advise you to plan for what you will do when this situation presents itself. I know you've got alot on your plate right now. I use to think I was alone in what I've dealt with but the more I read on these boards, the more I realize I'm not.

I think about this often. I will never let her irresponsibility with money affect my family. Not long ago she attended a very expensive memory seminar. I asked her why she was spending the money and she told me that I would be happy when she was older and had a great memory (my grandmother has memory issues now). I was thinking, of course I don't want anyone to have memory problems when they are older but she would be better off putting that money towards her debt so that she has a house to live in then and not some expensive memory tricks. I will not bail her out and I haven't in a very long time. She will inherit a little money from my grandmother and I go back and forth between getting involved and seeing if I can get control of the money so we can invest it in an account where she can't blow everything, and staying out of it because it isn't my business. I just want her to be financially self sufficient because I don't know what SHE will do if she isn't. She takes care of her mother now and does stuff like cook every week for Grandma when Grandma just gives the food to her friends. She likes to complain about how much of a burden it is to have to deal with Grandma, yet she is doing things for her that she wants to and not what Grandma wants. Again she is the victim.

[tarnalberry]

I think it must be victimization. I do stand up to her and when it is about little things maybe she feels she is the victim then. I think most of the time people want someone to validate their opinions and if you keep turning to someone who usually disagrees with your opinions, maybe you feel like a victim, I guess other than not getting into a conversation I don't know how to stand up to her without disagreeing and therefore making her feel wrong and victimized.

Well, victimization is a form of attention. I've been in the "ok... guess there's no conversation to get into... including the weather" sorts of situations before, and sometimes that's all there is, because the other person is so skilled at drawing out the negative attention seeking behavior that there is no positive, or even neutral, common ground to find. Maybe there's something for you guys, though?

I read the reviews of this book on Amazon and I'm not sure it applies. I don't think that I seek approval or have any self esteem type issues. I have posted about my husband not being the most compassionate which has made celiac even more challenging. I keep telling him that I need him to relate to me in certain ways and to do certain things for me and he has come around. I don't ever give up and not get my needs met just because I'm met with resistance. I do see that in some aspects I mother him in the sense that I am the "household manager" and basically take care of everything around the house. It works well because I'm in charge and I can delegate and I don't have to get frustrated that he doesn't see things that need to be done. On the other hand, he is incredibly mature about somethings such as money so he is the "financial manager" and I trust him to take care of that without me having to be very involved. We work with each other's strengths and I don't see any unhealthy patterns in our relationship.

Hmm... perhaps I wasn't clear - easy to do when suggesting those sorts of books. I didn't mean to say that it would be any sort of self-help book. It's absolutely not. And I'm not saying that it necessarily describes you to a T (though the approval-seeking and self-esteem issues are only two of the manifestations of the inappropriate parent/child relationship talked about in the book). But from what I've interpretted from what you've written here, and my reading of the book, it sounded like it might reflect some of the issues, from childhood, that are the basis for your relationship and interaction with her today. It does talk about patterns, throughout generations, and while you may have broken that pattern to some greater or lesser degree, she may have been subject to the same pattern, and not overcome the pressures. So, in addition to adding a new perspective from which to think about the foundations of your relationship with her, it may add some new perspective on her development of relationship skills, particularly the parent/child ones.

I certainly found the discussion less than completely applicable to me, personally. I felt that I had gotten past most of the patterned issues discussed. But I also don't have kids, and this is fundamentally discussing a parent/child relationship, not any other, so I couldn't even say that for sure, other than noting I at least have more awareness about the potential.

I think that when she is in my house my manners win out over my desire to keep things with her in check. She did teach me to be a good hostess and I think that is why it is hard to stand up to her and not let things bother me in person whereas on the phone I'm very good at that.

But in being a good hostess and letting your manners (and presumably her desires? I'm asking because I don't really understand the interpersonal ramifications with her on this one, and really, it's more of a rhetorical question) win over keeping your interactions with her in check are providing inconsistent rewards for her. And inconsistent rewards are - iirc - a better motivator than consistent rewards. It's a tough call, and, I suppose, a very personal one - while I might not see it as playing hostess (since it's close family), others might see that it's any guest. Either way, it looks like one area that might help make a difference. It can be mentally costly, since you'd have to separate yourself from her attempts at manipulating you to feel badly for not making your choice the same as her choice, and a cost worth weighing, so it's another thing to weigh on the cost-benefit scale.

We have having family come in town a few weeks after the baby is due and we plan to get him baptized then. I just thought that maybe I could buy her a ticket for that weekend so she can be a part of that celebration and come down a few weeks after he gets here. This way we will have family stuff to do which she will hate but will take up time and I will know that I have some alone time with the baby and not be stressed about her visit when I'm trying to get settled.

Realistically, is there *any* solution to this logistics-of-family-during-the-birth-time that will make her happy? It doesn't sound like it; there will always be something that will upset/hurt/alienate her. Would setting it up as early as possible help, so that she has more time to get used to the idea, and you have the "this is what we all agreed to mom, there's no sense in getting upset about it today" when the time comes? (wishful thinking, eh? )

[Guest cassidy]

Tarnalberry,

Does anyone here sleep? I'm glad you don't because there are always new replies to read but it seems like other people are also up at strange hours. My cat got a window shade cord wrapped around his neck last night. I ran to him and pulled it off but he was thrashing around and it was tight. We took him to the emergency vet and they gave him some pain medicine and said he would be fine. I was up most of the night because he was groggy and wanted to stay in the pet carrier instead of sleeping in the bed like he usually does. He is much better this morning, but that was quite a scare. He never goes near that window and it is the only one that the cords aren't secured on.

As always, you make good points. I think I will try to arrange the visit after the birth now so she can pitch her fit and we can get it out of the way far in advance. My husband didn't think that would work but he is also looking at it from her perspective and how she will be upset if she doesn't come immediately. I don't think anything would make her happy other than moving into my skin, so I guess I'll just try to make me the happiest. He also doesn't think she should sleep on the couch because she is the guest, but when the baby comes we are not going to be inconvenienced; the baby and me as his food source will come first. My husband will support me but he doesn't see how this is mostly her issue, he just wants us to get along.

I guess I didn't see it as inconsistent rewards, but that is completely true - they work well in gambling. It is hard to be consistent when you have to choose every word, unless you just choose not to talk very much. I'm going to try to think about that more when I'm talking to her. She likes to call everyday. If I don't answer the phone or call her back, then she will call and call. I was in my 20's and left my cell phone at home one night and spent the night out. Before I got home the next day she had come to my house and looked all around and called hospitals because she couldn't find me, and that happened more than once.

That book may make some good points, but right now I'm focusing on reading about giving birth and the baby. Understanding her better would be helpful but it still is more than I'm willing to do right now.

I'm just glad that I seem pretty well adjusted and that I will be conscious on how I treat my baby and do my best not to cause him emotional issues through messed up communications.

Ursula,

She can't move closer. She has clients in her business and moving would mean starting from scratch. Also, it is more expensive to live here so it would be hard for her. I'm still thinking that when my Grandma goes she will use that money and move down anyway, but hopefully Grandma will be around for a while.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I don't have any helpful advice to offer , but just wanted to send extra strength, patience, and good thoughts your way .