Bourban Whiskey

[BamBam]

I was watching Emeril a couple weeks ago and he made some baby back ribs that are marinated in a bourban/apple cider marinade. Can we drink bourban, I know I am spelling it wrong, can't figure out how to spell it, sorry! I need to get to the liquor store in the next couple hours, so if anybody could answer this it would be great.

Thanks!

BAMBAM

[Mtndog]

Bourbon is initially made from gluten-containing grain but the distillation process supposedly takes the gluten out. I have reacted to other alcohols made from grains so I usually stick to tequila, potato vodka, etc. But I think the general conscensus in celiac literature is that it's OK.

BUT, make sure there's nothing funky in the coloring.

[Lisa]

The CSA has recently declared that all distilled liquors remove the gluten in the process.

I am able to drink Seagrams 7 and Maker's Mark with no issue. I don't feel comfortable with Jim Beans and Jack Daniels though.

I know that Maker's Mark is listed on gluten free list. If you are not a big drinker, you can be one or two of the mini's.

If it turns out, please share the recipe.

[hez]

I have Maker's Mark and have not had a problem. I think I got that off of a list on this site?

Hez

[zansu]

I've had no problem with Jack Daniels bourbon, but I prefer single malt scotch

[larry mac]

The CSA has recently declared that all distilled liquors remove the gluten in the process.

Everything I've read and heard since I was diagnosed eight weeks ago indicated the above statement is true (by everything I mean doctors & researchers). So if one believes it to be true, why would there be any difference in brands of whiskey, bourbon, vodka (unflavored although I don't know if that could make a difference), rum (same as vodka), tequila, etc.

I would only consider good quality spirits of course.

I'm under the impression that bourbon whiskey gets it's color from the charred casks it's aged in. Same for reposada & anejo tequila.

best regards, lm

[Kaycee]

The fact that they claim bourbons do not have gluten in them is really annoying me, because I cannot drink Jack Daniel without getting a reaction!

Cathy

[ravenwoodglass]

Because everyone is different and some do seem to tolerate distilled grains (I do not and won't touch them) what I would do if I were you is I would get a small bottle. Then drink a shot a night for 3 days. Then wait another 2 to 3 days and add nothing else suspect into your diet at that time. If after this trial you haven't reacted then you know that it will most likely be tolerated (notice I didn't say safe) for you.

I have noticed that many times it is folks with more neuro symptoms that seem to react most strongly and some don't react at all but many of us do react. Trust your body and let it tell you.

[ravenwoodglass]

The fact that they claim bourbons do not have gluten in them is really annoying me, because I cannot drink Jack Daniel without getting a reaction!

Cathy

Me too, and throw vinager and grain vodka in there also. One grain vodka and I black out for the rest of the night, potato lets me remember my good time

[larry mac]

Because everyone is different and some do seem to tolerate distilled grains (I do not and won't touch them) ....... I have noticed that many times it is folks with more neuro symptoms that seem to react most strongly and some don't react at all but many of us do react....

rwg,

That's probably a very good point, thank you for making it. Must keep reminding myself of it. I'm fairly new and keep trying to make some sense of the stuff on this forum. I'd like to boil it down to some neat & tidy science that I can apply to me. There's two basic problems impeding this attempt. Human physiology and human psychology, and the enormous variations people display. If one doesn't allow for that, one could go bonkers, couldn't one?

For instance, the only physical symptoms I've ever had were d. , stomach illness associated with d. , weight loss, and lack of sleep from having to get up in the middle of the night. So I can't personally relate to many others problems. Who knows, that could change. I could develop other problems from going gluten-free. Or I could get tested at enterolabs and get allergic to everything (just kidding, couldn't resist, it's a joke really, don't know much about it, but I haven't seen anyone on here say they got tested and wasn't sensitive to anything). Please forgive me, I'm not a bad person, am I?

And don't even talk about people's heads. Celiac aside, we can't even agree on tuna fish. Some think Chicken of the Sea is disgusting and only eat Starkist (ok me). Or think tuna packed in oil is disgusting and only eat water. Some want to throw up if they taste a bourbon & coke, but love gin & tonic, etc. etc. etc, times a million.

So we start with that and then throw Celiac in there and then "viola", we got lots of different beliefs, some hard to swallow (literally).

name='ravenwoodglass'.....and some don't react at all but many of us do react. Trust your body and let it tell you.

You're talking about spirits here, but I'm thinking this could be a more general idea and apply in many other situactions.

If someone says "I can drink Makers Mark but not Jack Daniels", and if they have actually done it , ie. they had a reaction to Jack Daniels, well then that's easy to accept. That's real, observable science, for them. Doesn't matter if there's supposedly no gluten in either one. One made them sick and one didn't. What are you gonna do? You're gonna drink Makers Mark!

BTW, I have a little (ok a lot) of experience with both MM & JD and many others. One could say I like sour mash bourbon whiskey. Haven't had any problems celiac-wise with any spirits. But I have always noticed a very strong, distinctive taste with Jack Daniels Black, It's almost like I can taste the charcoal filtering or something. Not bad, but definately different. So what a coincidence that some are having a problem with it.

Sorry about the long post (assuming anyones still reading). I still love this forum. I've gotton a lot of great info & advise. It's frustating sometimes, but I feel much better off since I found it. Thanks to all! lm

[Mtndog]

Me too, and throw vinager and grain vodka in there also. One grain vodka and I black out for the rest of the night, potato lets me remember my good time

Well-said! The potato part! It's hard because a lot of stuff is "technically" gluten-free but that doesn't maen you won't react to it. That's the hard part with the learning curve on this disease. You have to figure out what you react to and what you don't.

One person will tell you that the Celiac Sprue association says blah blah is gluten-free but you react to it. You may be reacting to something else in said product or something about the processing, but all that matters is that you react to it, so YOU don't do it.

Then of course, there's the reverse- some people don't react at all, but that doesn't mean their intestines aren't being damaged. Grrrr! Welcome to the somewhat debatable, often contradictory, but mostly humorous world of Celiac Sprue where no topic is off-limits!

[happygirl]

Well said, Bev.

Also---its not just the CSA that says it. The American Dietetic Association states that distilled alcohols are safe.

[ravenwoodglass]

Well said, Bev.

Also---its not just the CSA that says it. The American Dietetic Association states that distilled alcohols are safe.

Actually CSA does not exactly say that, this is from their web site.

Open Original Shared Link

"Alcoholic Beverages

FOUNDATION STAGE:

Wine and brandies without preservatives and added dyes; potato vodka; most rums and tequila.

EXPANDING STAGE:

Distilled liquors known to be from wheat, barley or rye are categorized as “rendered gluten-free through processing.” If the product is from a gluten source, it does not conform to the diet of those who choose a zero tolerance level gluten-free diet."

[gfp]

Everything I've read and heard since I was diagnosed eight weeks ago indicated the above statement is true (by everything I mean doctors & researchers). So if one believes it to be true, why would there be any difference in brands of whiskey, bourbon, vodka (unflavored although I don't know if that could make a difference), rum (same as vodka), tequila, etc.

I would only consider good quality spirits of course.

I'm under the impression that bourbon whiskey gets it's color from the charred casks it's aged in. Same for reposada & anejo tequila.

best regards, lm

Because the distillation process cannot guarantee the end product.

No two distillations are ever the same, even if they appear superficially so.

In the first place they never start with exactly the same ingredients and proportions because they start off with a fermented product which is the byproduct of yeast, sugar and whatever else is put in depending on the type of liquor.

Then the distillation process removes the volatile components according to ther boiling temperature.

However there is no such thing as a boiling temperature, only an average. Pure water can evaporate at 0c (-32F) directly, it doesn't just go from 99C-100C and start to evaporate but increases rapidly towards this point.

Small changes in pressure or the humidity (saturation) of the air it is evaporating into change this so you can't say even for pure water that at a certain temperature it will evaporate at a certain rate.

When you mix alcohol and water together it becomes azeotropic, that is the average boiling point of the two together is less for a certain temperature/pressure than either by itself. If you take distilled water and distilled alcohol and mix them and distill them you end up with (depending on outside pressure and the chamber used to collect the distillate 98% alcohol +/-) however the mix you are distilling from doesn't only contain alcohol and water but thousands of products which are the byproduct of the yeast, its food and its excrement. Yechnically speaking alcohol is yeast poo. Although much simpler than us yeast make different poo according to what they eat and other condisitons.

Many of these other byprodcuts also affect the distillation process by either attracting or being attacted to either water, alcohol or both... or being strongly repelled by either or both not to mention each other.

Thus when you run a distillation the intial products are often methanol but also the corresponding aldehydes and ketones along with things which are attracted to them.

When a certain product of the distillate is in its acme for evaporation this can carry much larger molecules with it if these molecules are bound to many of the primary distillate at that temp and pressure.

When doing distillations in research they are undertaken in pressure controlled environments, the air pressure is artifically maintained to reduce the effects of changing weather etc.

Anyway, the point is distillation is a process that starts off making byproducts (actually toxic ones) which are disguarded ... then its mainly alcohol with increasing water until at the heavy end you start getting significant toxic products again and its diguarded...however these toxic products are still present in liquor, they are just moderately toxic and eliminating them 100% is usually pointless because our body will actually turn the alcohol back into many of them anyway....

If you repeat a distillation 100x then each one will be subtly different even from the same "mash" of fermented stuff.

As a analogy the same is true for fermentation. Great winemakers invest significant money in getting a single vat big enough to process all of one type of wine together. They know from experience if they take the same raw materials and ferment it in 10 identical smaller vats they will all be different and even after they bottle the wine no two bottles even from the same vat on the same day will be the same as any other bottle. The amount someone is willing to pay for a great wine depends largely on consistency... you don't want to spend $500 on a bottle and find its a poor example of that wine for that year.

The distillation process is like this, its not consistent ....

If distillation produced a pure water/alcohol mix then unaged/uncolored and unflavored rum, vodka and tequilla would all taste the same...

I'm under the impression that bourbon whiskey gets it's color from the charred casks it's aged in.

There are various ways, the major part of commercial grade stuff is often aged in wine or port casks... so the part of the flavor is depending on that type of wine/port... however at this point you can probably answer the question yourself....

If it was solely the barrels and we were adding pure alcohol and water then bourbon, whisky and whiskey would all taste the same... if the same barrels were used....

The last thing to consider is its not gluten makes us ill but a very small part of gluten that we are not quite sure what it is....

What we do know is that this sequence must be the same or functionally the same in wheat, barley and rye proteins ...

However consider for a moment the way we got told atoms were the smallest particle, then electrons and since then pois, hadons, muons and kaons.

Although postulated in the 1960 the Higgs Boson has yet to be found.... even though the heavier bosons have been....

If you think sub-atomic particles and quantum theory are irrelevant then that is because you don't understand distillation.

The actual act of evaporation and the measurement of a distillate and the conditions acting upon it is a direct expression of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle...

edits added after .....

"Alcoholic Beverages

FOUNDATION STAGE:

Wine and brandies without preservatives and added dyes; potato vodka; most rums and tequila.

EXPANDING STAGE:

Distilled liquors known to be from wheat, barley or rye are categorized as

[Mtndog]

EXPANDING STAGE:

Distilled liquors known to be from wheat, barley or rye are categorized as

[Lisa]

This is good to know! I hadn't seen this latest statement and it would certainly explain why I (my body) wants to stick to potatoes and anything NOT made originally from gluten!

Same for me. I can drink some liquors, but react to others. Hmmm

[gfp]

This is good to know! I hadn't seen this latest statement and it would certainly explain why I (my body) wants to stick to potatoes and anything NOT made originally from gluten!

Same for me. I can drink some liquors, but react to others. Hmmm

With all due respect, it doesn't "explain" anything. Its simply an opinion doubtless written by someone who knows a good deal less about distillation than I do. The fact I agree with it doesn't mean its an explanation...

I just posted for the n'th time an explanation.

If tommorw the CSA site goes down this doesn't change whether distilled alcohol is safe but all this is is an opinion that ... what I mean is it being stated on CSA doesn't change the facts... just as if its not stated on CSA doesn't change the facts.

It does not conform to the diet of those who choose a zero tolerance level gluten-free diet.

The difference is very important.... because as Larry Mac said

If someone says "I can drink Makers Mark but not Jack Daniels", and if they have actually done it , ie. they had a reaction to Jack Daniels, well then that's easy to accept. That's real, observable science, for them. Doesn't matter if there's supposedly no gluten in either one. One made them sick and one didn't. What are you gonna do? You're gonna drink Makers Mark!

This makes perfect sense unless you understand the process of distillation.... and unless you did post-grad sciences this is unlikely because the way it is taught at school is incorrect. Its simply a huge simplification of a complex process, so far as I know no schools have started teaching quantum physics to 12 yr olds (Not because its more complex but because the model for teaching science at high school level involves teaching gross oversimplifications which are known to be wrong and then expanding/explaining why later...

So the problem is the suck it and see doesn't work! MM might have one batch at one point that you taste no problems but then another batch might not be OK....

In general the multiple distillations are towards increasing safety .... a 3x distilled batch is far far less to have any residual gluten than 2x...

edits: Or to put it another way... I'm say here in blue jeans and a ochre shirt.... I am very sure about that although we could argue the definition of jeans and ochre.... but regardless of anything anyone else on here posts about my dress today I am still sure what I'm wearing.... The whole debate on distillation is like this, I have written research papers on distillation. It is a process I know as much about as more or less anyone. The one thing I can say with certainty about distillation is "You cannot consistently predict the results in a multiphase azeotrope".

You can design the process to minimise gluten or maximise its potential for being carried forwards but never guarantee it...

... but the liquor companies are not interested in that part of the process, their manipulations are to do with yield, taste etc. so short of testing each batch it can never be 100% safe...

Its up to everyone to make their own decisions but based on the correct information.... Its helpful for CSA to post this but it doesn't actually change anything!

[Lisa]

My bottom line is, if it bothers me, I don't eat or drink whatever it is. I need no other information other than that.

[gfp]

My bottom line is, if it bothers me, I don't eat or drink whatever it is. I need no other information other than that.

Its usually a good way to work things out, often the best way, especially if you have other intolerances .... its what I do for most things closely followed by what works for other people....

However it doesn't work for distillation.....

I'm not sure which part I am not explaining properly since I've posted the same information several times nor am I really sure if people just chose to ignore it or have the opinion of they don't understand something it can't be important? Perhaps people just don't believe me or prefer to not think about it...? Just like those millions of undiagnosed celiacs who are ill but keep saying "Oh, it can't be bread I've been eating it since weaning"..... "and besides I had an alergy test as a kid so I can't be allergic to it"

I don't know a simpler way to say this than "If you taste it and its fine that's no guarantee that the next batch from the same manufacturer will be" ....

[Lisa]

Thanks for posting regarding the distillation process. Very interesting.

In my case, I have enjoyed Seagrams 7 and Makers for years and have never reacted (only a rare over endulgence) to either. History indicates that I can ejoy it successfully.

And, I don't intend to mess with a good thing.

[gfp]

Thanks for posting regarding the distillation process. Very interesting.

In my case, I have enjoyed Seagrams 7 and Makers for years and have never reacted (only a rare over endulgence) to either. History indicates that I can ejoy it successfully.

And, I don't intend to mess with a good thing.

No probs then

This is the other confusion I sometimes get .... sometimes I have a bad stomach and feel kinda weird the next day .... nothing to do with gluten so much as over indulgence but heck it can be hard to tell what's what under those circumstances....

In fact I think the bottom line with the distillation thing is actually just to be aware.... I think for a decent brand the risk is probably less than eating out....

anyway, the reason I am so stubborn on this issue is because I have begun to suspect (no real evidence but lots of pointers) that one of the worst things for us long term is when we get a comfort-food that we view as a safe food that can be contaminated. My experience is we get very attached to our brands of liquor ... so its easy to do the same thing. In other words a long term low exposure probably does more long term damage than an occiasional big accident.

My opinion is its better to leave yourself open to revising your opinion, just like we have to be on certain other foods... like when cereals suddenly decide to change the recipe etc.

From the POV of liquor, if you get a bad one chance is the rest of that batch are bad... so knowing this you can decide for yourself perhaps another bar is still serving the old bottles or has already moved onto a new batch or perhaps you have a backup brand you can switch to... or if its your own bottle swap it with a non celiac friend.

The problem is once your glutened it can be hard to test a new one... !!! but that's a whole seperate thread!

[larry mac]

gfp,

Thanks for taking the time to post all that. That adds a lot of science to all of the anectdotal statements everyone makes. That's what I like. I'm OK with anectdotal statements if it's backed up by firm direct personal experience.

Please correct me if I got this wrong, but basically, what you are saying is my margaritas are celiac safe, but whiskey is risky ! That even if I don't have any obvious reactions, there is the "potential" for gluten exposure to some undeterminable degree. That theoretically, the gluten molecules are too large to be distilled, but unknown smaller particals could make it over, and that variables in equipment, technique, and food materials introduce too much unpredictability to the process. OK, makes sense.

BTW, I've been a lab tech for much of my life. In a water/wastewater lab now, but worked for Core Labs (an oil & gas service company) in the gas chromatography lab for 15 yrs (from when it was archaic to modern), and the PVT (pressure, volume, temperature) lab for 7 yrs. Plus food research and environmental labs. However, I belong to a tribe of lab techs that are a simple folk, like hobbits. We know what to do & how to do it, but the ah how you say - quantum physics theories are sometimes elusive for us. Occasionaly someone like you will come in and say " see this - this is steam!!!" - and we all repeat "steam, steam".

You would love this. I operated a Podbielniac HydRobot, a low temperature fractional distillation apparatus (big as a wall). There were only a few (3 I think) in operation in the country at the time, most or all ours. We started by charging 20-30 cc of oil in single phase, from reservoir conditions into a small glass kettle immersed in liquid nitrogen. As the sample was warmed, the various gas fractions were measured, collected, and analyzed. Same for the residue, usually a C7+.

Also, I operated a high temperature distillation unit. Starting with an ambient oil sample (about 500 ml) and collecting, measuring, and analyzing all fractions from C6 to C30+. Of course reducing pressure numerous times.

Thanks again gfp, enjoyed it. best reagrds, lm

[gfp]

gfp,

Thanks for taking the time to post all that. That adds a lot of science to all of the anectdotal statements everyone makes. That's what I like. I'm OK with anectdotal statements if it's backed up by firm direct personal experience.

I think in 90% of cases anecdotal evidence is probably the best...

Please correct me if I got this wrong, but basically, what you are saying is my margaritas are celiac safe, but whiskey is risky !

Exactly... the whisky might be OK.... but how can you tell?

That even if I don't have any obvious reactions, there is the "potential" for gluten exposure to some undeterminable degree. That theoretically, the gluten molecules are too large to be distilled, but unknown smaller particals could make it over, and that variables in equipment, technique, and food materials introduce too much unpredictability to the process. OK, makes sense.

Exactly the whole process is somewhat liable to very small things... its like what we call in England "Chinese Whsipers" (apologies if there's a PC term now).. and I beleive is called "telephone" in the US...

Just one small change can affect one thing and this then affects the next.... so if a certain molecule is mobile earlier its absense later can influence things that remain and their "mobility" where mobilty is basically their prediliction to evaporate.

BTW, I've been a lab tech for much of my life. In a water/wastewater lab now, but worked for Core Labs (an oil & gas service company) in the gas chromatography lab for 15 yrs (from when it was archaic to modern), and the PVT (pressure, volume, temperature) lab for 7 yrs.

Ok in that I can give analogies.... when you do analysis you start from known standards.. The standards themselves arte not "pure" but their purity is known... you probably did sample extractions where you use a solvent to extract .. and again the process is imperfect. You establish what amount of the sample is dissolved into the solvent and the method will depend on what sample you are extracting from what matrix...

Plus food research and environmental labs. However, I belong to a tribe of lab techs that are a simple folk, like hobbits. We know what to do & how to do it, but the ah how you say - quantum physics theories are sometimes elusive for us. Occasionaly someone like you will come in and say " see this - this is steam!!!" - and we all repeat "steam, steam".

LOL

You would love this. I operated a Podbielniac HydRobot, a low temperature fractional distillation apparatus (big as a wall). There were only a few (3 I think) in operation in the country at the time, most or all ours. We started by charging 20-30 cc of oil in single phase, from reservoir conditions into a small glass kettle immersed in liquid nitrogen. As the sample was warmed, the various gas fractions were measured, collected, and analyzed. Same for the residue, usually a C7+.

Yes exactly but usually if you take say the isomeric ones (C5+) and analyse you find that you had some aromatic fractions included in the alkanes... so what you do next (depending on accuracy) is run it through a GCLC with a column designed to seperate the aromatics from the straight chains... however when you look at the long part of the trace on the GCLC or GCMS you always get outliers, if the process was fractionation or distillation then usually these outliers indicate long chain HC which were caught up with something else...

One way to look at this is the difference between Jet Fuel and household paraffin.... they are identical down to ppm of impurities... but jet fuel sells for way way more than paraffin....

The impurities are very important because they can cause fuel pipe blockage and act differently under extreme cold... and this is not good at 35,000 feet! This was actually one of my areas of research but for obvious reasons I can't go into detail...however you know how much money the oil industry has to throw about.... so you can guess how much work is done on this yet we still can't work out a way to get rid of those impurities by simple fractionation/distillation... it can be going perfectly well then the weather changes or some other inponderable... and suddenly you have impurities ... so its like the process is 90%+ reliable but still doesn't produce JetFuel because the amount of screening needs to be done on the finished product is not cost effective.

If you think of when you wash a sample vessel you're always meant to rinse 3x... because say the partition coefficient is .9 then the first wash gets rid of 90%.... the second 90% of what's left (1%) and the final one 90% of what's left (0.09%) so mulitple distillations work like this... 3x distilled is starting to get really pure...

Each time reduces your risk....

Thanks again gfp, enjoyed it. best reagrds, lm

Thanks.

[kathy1]

I think that some of this controversy may be a "CYA" approach, since no one wants to be held liable! My husband drinks Jim Beam and has no problems at all. In fact- his Dr raves about his results on the gluten-free diet, so it does not appear to be effecting him in any way.

[gfp]

I think that some of this controversy may be a "CYA" approach, since no one wants to be held liable!

Sure but if you want to test 100,000 bottles we can clear it up.

In fact most of the contorversy is down to the way distillation is taught at highschool, and to some extents grad school.

The way its taught is not just incorrect but its 19C science.... but the problem is it is simply not guaranteed ....

My husband drinks Jim Beam and has no problems at all. In fact- his Dr raves about his results on the gluten-free diet, so it does not appear to be effecting him in any way.

Equally when my mom went gluten-free her GP had her tested with 2 more biopsies to see how she was doing... and raved about how well her villi were repairing, my mom however still didn't feel well and indeed she was still eating gluten in small amounts in "gluten-free codex" breads her dr. was prescribing...

After a further 6 months I finally convinced her to stop eating the "gluten-free" bread and also by herself she decided to stop taking some other medication for her regularity which contained soy.... one or the other made the difference from someone who was always ill to someone who today walks 10 miles every day ...

To some extent yes its CYA.... its not so likely that any individual bottle will be bad... but no bottle is better than any other unless its tested... hence its an ever present risk. So yes its a biy of CYA but at the same time so is saying don't walk across a road without looking. Depending where you live and time of day etc. the chance of getting killed might be very low .... but this doesn't mean its generally good advice to say it's OK to walk without looking ....

If you live out in the sticks you can use your own judgement ....

The thing is there are quite a few of us here that definately do react to some grain based spirits.... I personally haven't tested them all ... so I say some. I have also a few times managed to have the odd one and not react... but equally I have had a single shot I thought was tequilla but turned out to be vodka and reacted... so its obviously not a simple yes/no....

Its my opinion that when something regards peoples health and a simple Y/N isn't possible then the best is to CYA and not recommend something....

Really, in most cases it matters very little .... there are lots of celiacs who are diagnosed and don't make ANY effort at gluten-free diet. There are lots who think they can cheat and wipe a few crumbs of a burger.... and there are those who think any amount of gluten is bad... personally I think no amount of gluten can be good so why have ANY???

Surely the best advice all round is don't eat anything that might have gluten in it....

If people find they can cheat .. that's up to them but please don't come begging for tax $ when you get a terminal illness due to it.

(not that my tax $ are relevant here but .. for the sake of explanation)

We see the same over diabetics, many refuse to moderate thier diet or lose weight... and instead take insulin... which strictly speaking they don't need and destroys their bodies own ability...

The thing is I'm not telling anyone what they should and shouldn't do.... to themselves as it so happens my best friend whom I love dearly is obese, at very high risk of diabetes anyway and drinks far far too much (not to mention until XMAS when the Dr. gave him less than a year to live) he smoked 100 a day as well.

I never told him what to do.... I even bought his cigarettes if he was through gout or any of his other self imposed medical conditions unable to get to the shop.... but if he ever asked I told him what I thought.... and I clearly did not agree.. but that was it, its not up to me to tell him how to live (or shorten) his life!