So Confused!

[lob6796]

I was reading the brochure that the celiac foundation put out and it said "*caution* Rice Dream contains gluten*. What??? I went to the Rice Dream website and the ingredients are:

Ingredients: filtered water, organic brown rice (partially milled), expeller pressed high oleic safflower oil, tricalcium phosphate, sea salt, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin D2, vitamin B12,

Is there hidden gluten there? I feed it to my daughter because she can't have milk OR soy.. god please tell me I can still give her this.

[tom]

The Rice Dream boxes used to specifically say some small % of barley malt used. It was listed under the ingred list - like the law allows tiny % ingred to be left off the ingred list.

3 days ago I was at the store holding 2 Rice Dream boxes - one with the barley malt warning and one w/out.

The barley warning had been on their packaging for years.

But it still doesn't say "gluten-free". Until I hear specifically otherwise, I'm going w/ the theory that they felt the warning was causing lost sales, and calculated that the ppm of gluten in that small % of barley malt was low enough that they could legally leave out the warning.

I bought the WestSoy brand of ricemilk.

You should try that or some other ricemilk brand known to be gluten-free.

[gfgypsyqueen]

I skip it because of the Barley statement. I am too sensitive as it is.

We use WestSoy Rice milk. We can't have nuts in the house, but I know some of the alternative milks are almond. Have you tried that one? I have also heard of Potato and hemp milks. They were talked about on this site. Potato is supposed to be closest to cows milk. Again I have not tried it yet. Maybe someone else can reccommend a brand their child likes best?

[lob6796]

I am updating my own question, lol but hopefully it will help others. I just called the makers of Rice Dream. They told me that the NFCA guide DOES say that Rice Dream is not gluten free, and at the time of publishing, it was (semi) true. He said that at the time of publication, their company was only able to test to .002% of gluten content. Because of that, they didn't feel comfortable calling their product gluten free. They have since updated their testing equipment and are now ablt to measure gluten in ppm. They are happy to announce that ALL of their rice beverages ARE gluten free. So drink easy

[rh4]

Rice Dream has been playing this little game for years and has made countless people sick. They use to list their ingredients in one place and then put that it may contain 20 ppm gluten elsewhere on the box. They have received complaints about this for years.

I'll never purchase another product from them.

Also, 20 ppm is about to become the US standard for "Gluten-Free" - so it won't matter whether they test .002% - it will still be "gluten-free". If you're really sensitive to gluten as I am - you won't know what gluten-free products are truly gluten-free - I know it doesn't make sense.

PS - the Gluten-free Mall supports this labeling by the way, so they can sell more products (make more products available as they put it)

[zkat]

I am also gluten-free, CF and Soy free. I like Pacific Foods brand Vanilla Almond milk. It tastes just like a powdered donut to me :-) When I was researching milk alternatives, I kept seeing conflicting statements about Rice Dream, therefore they do not get my hard earned dollars.

Kat.

[tarnalberry]

Also, 20 ppm is about to become the US standard for "Gluten-Free" - so it won't matter whether they test .002% - it will still be "gluten-free". If you're really sensitive to gluten as I am - you won't know what gluten-free products are truly gluten-free - I know it doesn't make sense.

It makes sense because there are physical limits to how little of something can be detected. In order to have a federal regulation on food labeling, you have to be able to 'prove' your claim. In order to prove your claim, you have to measure it. All instruments that measure physical things have a lower limit of resolution, and right now, that's about what we're looking at.

Is it great for all celiacs? No. Medical testing suggests that it is perfectly fine (no villous atrophy) for the vast majority, however. Combining that with the fact that lower levels can't be well tested for under reasonable cost, it's not unreasonable, even though it's a pain for celiacs who find themselves extremely sensitive, or who consume many such "less than 20ppm gluten" products every day.

[rh4]

It makes sense because there are physical limits to how little of something can be detected. In order to have a federal regulation on food labeling, you have to be able to 'prove' your claim. In order to prove your claim, you have to measure it. All instruments that measure physical things have a lower limit of resolution, and right now, that's about what we're looking at.

20ppm??? That's a joke. We're capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - why do you think are so many products now that are truly gluten-free??? "Gluten-free" should mean "Gluten-free". Your argument is like saying that your drinking water is "Arsenic-free" and labelled as such - it isn't and in the US your water company will provide you with the average amount of arsenic in your water - however they don't promote it as arsenic-free!

Is it great for all celiacs? No. Medical testing suggests that it is perfectly fine (no villous atrophy) for the vast majority, however. Combining that with the fact that lower levels can't be well tested for under reasonable cost, it's not unreasonable, even though it's a pain for celiacs who find themselves extremely sensitive, or who consume many such "less than 20ppm gluten" products every day.

Medical testing suggests a whole lot of things about celiac disease - one of them being that villous atrophy does not have to occur to suffer organ damage. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've read about the "Rice Dream" thing (20ppm by the way) and sick babies, and adults who thought the product was "gluten-free". Now there's going to be lots more of this. To condone this with your backward logic is a spineless argument.

[Juliebove]

The rice dream on the store shelves here still says it is not gluten free.

[Rosewynde]

I recently skipped over Rice Dream and a few other brands of soy and rice milk due to the labels either saying they were made in a factory with other gluten products or because they said they had malt (even if it said it was a small percentage). Even Trader Joes generic brand said it was made in a factory with gluten products. Almond Breeze is what I went with, they advertise as gluten free and I've had no problems with reactions from them. You might check out the Silk brand soy milks. I've not done research on it but have some leftover older mini boxes of the chocolate kind from Costco, with no obvious bad ingredients.

[gfmolly]

I was reading the brochure that the celiac foundation put out and it said "*caution* Rice Dream contains gluten*. What??? I went to the Rice Dream website and the ingredients are:

Ingredients: filtered water, organic brown rice (partially milled), expeller pressed high oleic safflower oil, tricalcium phosphate, sea salt, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin D2, vitamin B12,

Is there hidden gluten there? I feed it to my daughter because she can't have milk OR soy.. god please tell me I can still give her this.

For what it is worth, I bought rice dream at first when I was just lactose intolerant and made the mistake of drinking it when I was later gluten intolerant and it made me sick. I am pretty sensitive and I won't drink it.

[tarnalberry]

20ppm??? That's a joke. We're capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - why do you think are so many products now that are truly gluten-free??? "Gluten-free" should mean "Gluten-free". Your argument is like saying that your drinking water is "Arsenic-free" and labelled as such - it isn't and in the US your water company will provide you with the average amount of arsenic in your water - however they don't promote it as arsenic-free!

No, we are not capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - or at all - technologically or scientifically. There is not instrumentation to do it. Logically, you cannot prove a negative, and you're asking scientific instruments to do this. The products that you see currently labeled gluten free are not tested and proven to be free of any possible trace of gluten.

The arsenic example is a good one. There are limits to how little arsenic can be detected in a sample of water, due to both sample size and accuracy of the instrumentation itself. The reason that water will never be promoted as arsenic-free is that it is a naturally occurring substance that has always been, and will always be, in water, and only at certain doses is it toxic.

Beyond this, it's important to note that there are two issues at play:

1. the technological limitations both current and theoretic

2. the legal limitations (that are partially driven by market limitations)

These are both separate and intertwined when it comes to making and enforcing policy.

Medical testing suggests a whole lot of things about celiac disease - one of them being that villous atrophy does not have to occur to suffer organ damage. I can't tell you how many times over the years I've read about the "Rice Dream" thing (20ppm by the way) and sick babies, and adults who thought the product was "gluten-free". Now there's going to be lots more of this. To condone this with your backward logic is a spineless argument.

Perhaps you misunderstood the point I was making. Our lawmakers, our regulators, and even our medical community can only deal with real data. Anecdotal evidence, which is not supported by scientific study, will play no part in a formalized decision making process for a large number of people, because it is not scientifically sound. That is not to say it is wrong; it merely says it is unsupported.

I actually have not voiced my personal opinion on this board on the matter in nearly a year, but have merely tried to help explain how the policy is going to be set. Policy is never set for the tail cases - on either end of the distribution, when it's not specifically about that. It's vital that we remember the context of the decisions being made, they are far beyond each of us individually.

[DianeByrd]

I am updating my own question, lol but hopefully it will help others. I just called the makers of Rice Dream. They told me that the NFCA guide DOES say that Rice Dream is not gluten free, and at the time of publishing, it was (semi) true. He said that at the time of publication, their company was only able to test to .002% of gluten content. Because of that, they didn't feel comfortable calling their product gluten free. They have since updated their testing equipment and are now ablt to measure gluten in ppm. They are happy to announce that ALL of their rice beverages ARE gluten free. So drink easy

I just went to their website and read the following quote of their FAQ:

"Is Rice Dream Beverage a gluten free product?

No. Rice Dream Beverage is processed using a barley enzyme. Even though the barley enzyme is discarded after use, the final beverage might contain a minute residual amount (less than .002%) of barley protein. For a list of gluten free products click here "

Open Original Shared Link

I guess I won't be finishing the cartons in our cupboard. I started buying it when a clerk at the store pointed out that it didn't have a gluten-containing ingredients listed. It even says gluten free on the side or the carton! I wondered why "gluten free" didn't have a check mark next to it like all the other features!

[debmidge]

This is where consuming gluten-free labeled foods with trace amounts of gluten in them is a personal decison. Now that we know the facts about Rice Dream we have to make the choice for ourselves...obviously other foods labeled as gluten-free may contain trace amounts of gluten. It's a hard decision to make.

I guess there's no way around this - only two choices take the chance and eat it or not. I hate situations like this. Wish gluten-free really meant that.....

[Guest Doll]

This is a tough call. I can personally say that I am really sensitive to gluten (although less so to barley gluten), and I have never reacted to Rice Dream. It was the only milk alternative that I liked when I first went casein free.

The first few cartons I bought did not say anthing about barley on the label or I would have never bought it. The last one I did has a warning on it. However, I still bought it because I have not yet reacted.

Thanks for posting this, I'll have to figure out what I should do. If guess if I really wanted to I could get my antibodies checked after consuming it daily for awhile. I don't want to give it up unless it's causing damage. Pretty soon there'll be *nothing* good left in my fridge!

[DianeByrd]

This is a tough call. I can personally say that I am really sensitive to gluten (although less so to barley gluten), and I have never reacted to Rice Dream. It was the only milk alternative that I liked when I first went casein free.

The first few cartons I bought did not say anthing about barley on the label or I would have never bought it. The last one I did has a warning on it. However, I still bought it because I have not yet reacted.

Thanks for posting this, I'll have to figure out what I should do. If guess if I really wanted to I could get my antibodies checked after consuming it daily for awhile. I don't want to give it up unless it's causing damage. Pretty soon there'll be *nothing* good left in my fridge!

I'm not certain what is available up in Canada. Pacific rice milk is what we were using previously. Perhaps there is a health food store brand. We have a couple down here; Trader Joe's and Wild Oats both sell their own label of rice milk. It is good to know that you haven't reacted. I don't know how careful I need to be with my girls. I guess, as long as they're still moving up on the growth chart, we are probably okay.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! How exciting. Yay for the all-gluten-free reception! We're having an all gluten-free (soy and casein free, too) birthday party today for my 4yo, who usually can't even eat most of what is served at gluten free events. I just saw the front cover of the magazine Living Without has an article about wedding receptions.

[Nic]

This was actually discussed in a previous thread not too long ago. Someone said that they had contacted Rice Dreams and they said that the rice milk would soon be labeled as gluten free. So far all the boxes at where I shop still say it contain 0.02% barley. Maybe the newer boxes will be concidered gluten free and they just haven't updated their website yet. Either way, I buy Westsoy rice milk for my son because it is easier than guessing for now.

Nicole

[rh4]

No, we are not capable of testing for 0% at a reasonable cost - or at all - technologically or scientifically. There is not instrumentation to do it. Logically, you cannot prove a negative, and you're asking scientific instruments to do this. The products that you see currently labeled gluten free are not tested and proven to be free of any possible trace of gluten.

This is not true - logically you can prove a negative. Peanut testing is a great example. If it doesn't contain ANY peanuts of any kind or derivative, it's peanut-free, if it contains traces of peanuts - it says so - "May contain traces of peanuts". As for products currently on the market claiming to be gluten-free - goodwill and lawsuits have held them in check. It's only since the recent explosion of the gluten-free market that there has been this drive to define "gluten-free" as something less than gluten-free - the "big-boys" want to cash in but not assume any liability. Those companies that can't take that risk shouldn't. Those companies that can't be held to that standard (0% percent gluten) should be liable. If it's not possible to test at that level as you claim, then the ingredients should state - may contain gluten at 20ppm - not "gluten-free". You've been brainwashed or work for the food industry or both.

The arsenic example is a good one. There are limits to how little arsenic can be detected in a sample of water, due to both sample size and accuracy of the instrumentation itself. The reason that water will never be promoted as arsenic-free is that it is a naturally occurring substance that has always been, and will always be, in water, and only at certain doses is it toxic.

The reason that water is not promoted as arsenic-free is because it isn't. While it is a naturally occurring substance, we as a species also contribute to its production. As to it's toxicity "only at certain doses" - well, I suppose you'd say it depends on where you live (China for example) and the testing instrumentation available as to whether it was toxic or not.

Beyond this, it's important to note that there are two issues at play:

1. the technological limitations both current and theoretic

2. the legal limitations (that are partially driven by market limitations)

These are both separate and intertwined when it comes to making and enforcing policy.

Perhaps you misunderstood the point I was making. Our lawmakers, our regulators, and even our medical community can only deal with real data. Anecdotal evidence, which is not supported by scientific study, will play no part in a formalized decision making process for a large number of people, because it is not scientifically sound. That is not to say it is wrong; it merely says it is unsupported.

The 20 ppm "gluten-free" standard, without any sort of additional information - "may contain traces of gluten", etc., will wreak havoc on the gluten-free market. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this same Rice Dream question over the last 10 years... just read the responses on this one. Rice Dream gets a resounding "thumbs-down" (at the proposed legal limit 20 ppm) from the majority of writers, and some still seem confused, etc (I guess that's your market, huh?). Now multiply that by all of the new products that will come out once that 20ppm comes into being. You're going to have lots of sick and pissed off people. You're going to have people that think that they're following a gluten-free diet when they aren't. It's all going to make things more confusing than they already are and there will be a backlash and there will be lawsuits. I suppose that is when the "real data" you mention above will come in... along with a great deal of unnecessary pain and suffering.

I actually have not voiced my personal opinion on this board on the matter in nearly a year, but have merely tried to help explain how the policy is going to be set. Policy is never set for the tail cases - on either end of the distribution, when it's not specifically about that. It's vital that we remember the context of the decisions being made, they are far beyond each of us individually.

Indeed! Read all of these responses from all of these folks.

[Guest Doll]

I'm not certain what is available up in Canada. Pacific rice milk is what we were using previously. Perhaps there is a health food store brand. We have a couple down here; Trader Joe's and Wild Oats both sell their own label of rice milk. It is good to know that you haven't reacted. I don't know how careful I need to be with my girls. I guess, as long as they're still moving up on the growth chart, we are probably okay.

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! How exciting. Yay for the all-gluten-free reception! We're having an all gluten-free (soy and casein free, too) birthday party today for my 4yo, who usually can't even eat most of what is served at gluten free events. I just saw the front cover of the magazine Living Without has an article about wedding receptions.

Thanks! I will have to get that Living Without mag! Do you know if I can get it without having to order it online? I think that anyone with Celiac should make their wedding gluten-free! It's your day, you're paying...you should be able to eat without worry! It's not hard to make most menu items gluten-free with a little planning. Here in Regina, we also have a bakery that makes gluten-free cakes. They also make non-gluten-free items, so I will have to make sure they are very careful regarding CC. But it will be so worth it! I want a real "wedding cake" that I did not have to bake myself!

Hope the GFCFSF B-day party turned out alright! Very cool! I bet the they had fun! What did you make?