Oxalates And Nightshades

[Judyin Philly]

By the way, there's a very interesting "yeast" thread over at the trying-low-oxalate yahoo group -- it re-surfaced in the last day and has a pretty interesting discussion of how oxalate and yeast problems are related. A lot of folks there say that sticking with the LOD also got rid of their yeast problems. Florence

I THINK that i'm finding less yeast build up in the 'soft fold' skin areas too.

will go ck this out.

thanks judy

EDIT

Amanda .....just did a post on Wegamans and i went and updated my account and found this recipe and it has an attached video for Italian Wedding soup.

We must .......of course..........gluten-free this and ck other ingredients.......but it could be adapted.

i love this soup ....the meat balls can certainly use your persaonal recipe with the 'bread crumbs' of choice...

here it is. thanks Amanda..........would love to go to Wegmans TODAY.

I'LL HAVE TO LINK TO MY STORE TO SEE IF THEY ARE DOING A SPECAIL CELIAC WEEK.

Open Original Shared Link

JUDY

[nora-n]

She says the thorne supplements for yeast are special, as they are selected to be mold-free. All the other stuff is full of mold supposedly.

I have looked over at a LDN forum, at Open Original Shared Link and they might need some input about eating celiac, and gluten-sensitivity testing like enterolab. I am not gonna post there, not enough time. They have some threads about yeast too, and gluten.

I have autoimune thyroid disease so anything that can lower autoimmunity is very interesting. LDN sounds like it can.

[Flor]

The manufacturer info sheet on the Thorne SF722 says it's entirely "10-undecenoic acid" which is made from castor bean oil.

Some folks on the yahoo group are taking it and say it's helped. I'm trying to find out if it's low oxalate -- I'm thinking castor beans are in the legume family and pretty much all high oxalate, but maybe I'm wrong or maybe the processing of this stuff takes out the oxalates?

People over there are also doing goldenseal for yeast and some other thing that sounds like "biocidal" but I don't think I have that right. Anyone here use goldenseal?

[Flor]

Hey you all!

Did you guys know that Vit D interferes with Calcium's ability to bind oxalates?!?

This from Susan Owens:

"The calcium you give before meals won't do its job of binding oxalate

properly if it contains vitamin D."

The calicium I've been taking has Vit D. What about you guys?

Another tidbit: that anti-yeast product SF722 that's made from castor bean oil, Susan says the oil itself is low oxalate:

Susan again: "It looks as if the testing I've seen indicates that most of the oils are

not high oxalate, even if made from a high oxalate food."

I'm gonna try this stuff and will keep you posted.

I've also emailed Susan back to ask specifically which calcium product she recommends. Mine has mag, Vit D, and B6, manganese, copper, zinc, and boron.

Have you all been taking the calcium ten minutes before eating?

[jerseyangel]

I'm so leary of suppliments, but I have wanted to use biotin both for the oxalate connection and my increasing hair loss.

I tried a B complex recently that contained the biotin, but reacted almost immediately with a feeling of fullness in my lower throat and then a nauseous stomachache that lasted 3 days (from one tablet ). It was, of course, free of gluten.

Anyway, I bought PharmAssure Biotin (300 mcg) over the weekend. It's free of just about everything, and only has 3 ingredients (starch is from rice).

I took one yesterday, and one today and no ill effects! I want to begin taking 2 a day--I may try that starting tomorrow.

[jerseyangel]

Florence--

Interesting info--I take my calcium with meals, not before. Does that make a difference?

I know I was having dumping symptoms when I first started so it must have been somewhat effective. My guess, anyway

[Flor]

I think the recommendation over at yahoo site is to take the calcium five to ten minutes before eating.

I think just going LOD could produce oxalate dumping without taking calcium supplements. But I'm also thinking the calcium, whenever you take it, must bind some oxalates. I think it's just a question of what's optimal.

[bluejeangirl]

The other day I was making a buffalo patty for lunch and was really hungry for a big salad to go with it. I made a salad using dark green romaine lettuce and made a dressing with balsamic vinegar and olive oil. I had put on black olives on the salad too. Then figuring I blew it for the day I had green beans, roasted potatoes and carrots for supper. Funny how that's considered blowing one's diet.

Anyway I had a reaction that I think is related to oxalates. All over the very surface of my skin or just underneath it actually I had a burning, icy, prickly feeling that was very sensitive to touch. Expecially on my legs. The fact that it was irritable made me think it was oxalate crystals. I know my legs are the first to hurt when I was dumping the oxaltes early in the program.

So I had my little experiment and now I'm back on tract. I was reading how its important to not to eat sugar on this diet. I guess I forgot that.

When you have inflamed gut, Crohn's for example, very few oxalates are absorbed. So since autistic kids often have inflamed gut, it made sense to have a low-oxalate diet. We did a pilot study with 7 kids. All 7 were high in oxalates, and started the diet. They had problems with frequent urination, GI pain, etc. within a couple hours of eating. They had changes in behavior following eating. Things started changing with the diet. A lot of the things we've been calling yeasty behaviors go away with a low-oxalate diet. A lot of these kids had trouble taking DMG and TMG, glycine in general. We saw problems with constipation/diarrhea in these kids before the diet, even after being treated by GI docs. A lot of these children had trouble when introducing nuts, legumes, soy. A lot of these kids craved high-oxalate foods.

[...] Some of the food preferences of these kids are changing on the diet. Rice/corn caused one child to break out

[Judyin Philly]

Dear Gail

Got so much from your post..........did some brain storming with Glueless (Robbin ) on the phone yesterday and emails with patti.

How did i miss the 'sugar' factor????????????

I don't eat sugar .........like in coffee, cereal etc............but in occasional baking of my own........i've been getting 'dumping' or icky feeling and esp the 'urinary' symptoms..........warm, crampy, Crystal feeling in bladder............

it was after the apple cake i made from scratch...........through it out...................

So i know for me ............sugar is bad

on the LOD the yeasty symptoms have mostly gone............

I'm just so grateful for those of you posting personal experiences b/c they always give me the 'light bulb moments' that i can apply to myself.

i know I've read things before ..............but guess i get focused on 'lurking foods' and forget the big picture of things i KNEW FROM THE PAST.

I'm writing daily in my locked journal on daily strength and finding that helped. it was the journal that helped me see that the 10 dumping pattern was in the time frame of what has been going on with me in the past 3 days.

THANKS GAIL .

WE SURE ARE ONE GROUP OF 'WARRIORS' WHO ARE ON THE WAR PATH TO HEALTH

The other day I was making a buffalo patty for lunch and was really hungry for a big salad to go with it. I made a salad using dark green romaine lettuce and made a dressing with balsamic vinegar and olive oil. I had put on black olives on the salad too. Then figuring I blew it for the day I had green beans, roasted potatoes and carrots for supper. Funny how that's considered blowing one's diet.

Anyway I had a reaction that I think is related to oxalates. All over the very surface of my skin or just underneath it actually I had a burning, icy, prickly feeling that was very sensitive to touch. Expecially on my legs. The fact that it was irritable made me think it was oxalate crystals. I know my legs are the first to hurt when I was dumping the oxaltes early in the program.

So I had my little experiment and now I'm back on tract. I was reading how its important to not to eat sugar on this diet. I guess I forgot that.

I've been busy lately and haven't been able to do any reading. When I can read and study this more the more I'm able to keep with it. After all its a very hard diet to follow.

Don't have much else to report right now.

Gail

[Flor]

This from Susan Owens today at LOD yahoo group about yeast and LOD:

"The sense of this is that oxalate may depress immune recognition of candida

through indirect effects on the biotin and carboxylase chemistry. That's

why candida might get worse while dumping. Are you people getting a

reprieve when the child isn't dumping? Can you tell?"

It seems like over there people are reporting initial worsening of yeast symptoms and then improvements a few months down the road.

I hope that turns out to be the case for me. I'm trying to cut back on my sweet intake (not just candy type things, but fruit and honey and rice as well).

I'm finding that my shin burning and my itchy yeast symptoms are prominent at night and not so much during the day. I've just started on grapefruit seed extract to see if that helps.

I don't feel like I'm going through big cycles of dumping anymore, but more like a constant low-grade dumping. I can't quite figure what's going on, but in general I do feel a WHOLE lot better than I have for the last two years plus.

[Judyin Philly]

ditto florence .................i'm really feeling better too after 2 years esp the fibro...............

[amanda nc]

Hi,

I'm new here, and have come over from the low oxalate group. I have been gluten and casein-free for about five years now, and on the low oxalate diet for over a year. I began the diet for my autistic son, but it has changed my life as well. I thought that maybe some of you might like a perspective from an adult on the diet. Also, I began the diet before all the "supplement" chatter began on the board--I know that the board can be kind of hard to wade through now, with all the discussion about obscure supplements.

Five years ago, my son was very, very sick, and after numerous doctors I began researching on my own. (I was very sick too--I didn't actually know HOW sick until after I got better!) After stumbling upon some information about celiac disease, I was SURE we were celiacs! But the doctor wouldn't even test us, as it was too "rare." We began on a gluten-free diet, along with dairy-free (I thought maybe lactose intolerance,) and my son and I began to get better.

I have scanned this thread, and over the last five years, we have done what so many of you seem to have done--trimmed just about everything out of our diets. We are currently LOD, low-salicylate, yeast- and mold-free, and all natural. The only grain we eat is rice, and then I use Bette Hagman's rice/potato starch/tapioca starch mix for baking. The LOD has been huge for us. While my health was much, much better before beginning it, I can finally say I am a pretty healthy person for 47.

I homeschool my three kids, and don't have a lot of extra time as I cook everything we eat (I know you all can relate!), but I wanted to get in on this thread. I feel there are a lot of people on the trying_low_oxalates group right now who throw advice around pretty loosely, and I worry about people being mislead about the diet because of it. Actually, I no longer even send people there to research if they want info about the diet--I suggest they get the VP Foundation's book instead. I didn't see the book mentioned here--do you all know about it? It's not just a cookbook, but the most complete and precise listing available of oxalate content of foods, and it has an extensive discussion about oxalates and the research that's been done so far. Also great discussions about the supplements that have been tested and proven. Most of what is suggested on the LOD yahoo group is not essential to the success of the diet.

I would ALWAYS rely on Susan Owens' posts for your best info. Also, if you go back about a year and before, I think the discussions there are better about the diet.

I do not use chestnut flour or pumpkinseed flour or the other odd things that some on the board use, and we still have had great success with the diet. I worry that people will think they'll have to reinvent their way of eating in order to try the diet; that is just not so. Tapioca starch and potato starch are untested flours, but the process that is used to make the starches probably sucks out most of the soluble oxalates in the product. I can use the Bette Hagman mix, but begin getting into oxalate trouble when I've tried to switch to brown rice flour to get back the fiber. That means, to me, that the Hagman mix must be lower in oxalates than brown rice. We don't know this for sure, though; I just wanted to say that there are cooking options for this diet that are just not discussed on the board. I feed my whole family a low oxalate diet, so we have to do real food and real meals. The diet does not have to be as hard as it might sound like it is from the LOD yahoo group!

Anyway, I'll be lurking here from time to time and reading your posts. I will chime in if I think of anything that might be helpful that I've learned. I'll post my "story" soon, and tell about the wonderful things we've seen. I'm glad to hear that some of you are seeing good things too!

Amanda

[jerseyangel]

Amanda

Thank you so much for posting your experiences here. I am most grateful!

You are so right about the thought of revamping my diet even more than I already have. I also seem to be doing a lot of the things that you mentioned. I just can't take suppliments, as most don't agree with me. I do use the potato and corn starches--and in my mind, the oxalate should be mostly gone with those.

What you said makes so much sense. Welcome to the board, I hope we'll be hearing more.

Let us know if we can be of help to you, too. We have tons of great recipes and ideas to help with the gluten-free diet. Lots of folks here are also dairy free as well.

All the best to you and your son

[Judyin Philly]

Hi,

I'm new here, and have come over from the low oxalate group.

1. The only grain we eat is rice, and then I use Bette Hagman's rice/potato starch/tapioca starch mix for baking. The LOD has been huge for us.

2. I suggest they get the VP Foundation's book instead.

3. I would ALWAYS rely on Susan Owens' posts for your best info. Also, if you go back about a year and before, I think the discussions there are better about the diet. Amanda

WELCOME AMANDA NC...........

I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU CAME OVER FROM THE LOW OXALATE GROUP....PLEASE KEEP COMING BACK.

A COUPLE QUESTIONS.

1. I COULD always us the potato starch...until now.........and had to give up the tapioca starch a few months agao..when ever i do rare 'goodie' baking....with sugar .........i itch and the yeast seems to be worse and not sneeze when eating something like the 'upside down apple cake' i just did.

2. I JUST GOT THE COOKBOOK FROM THE LIBRARY AND FOUND SO MANY RECIPES ARE NOT gluten-free OR CASEIN FREE BUT THE INFO IS GOOD.

SOMEONE SAID SINCE IT WAS PUBLISHED IN 1997...I THINK THAT THE LIST OF FOODS IS OUT DATED AND THAT THERE IS ANOTHER ONE LISTED ON THIS SITE IS MORE UP TO DATE..WILL TRY TO FIND IT AND POST IT.

PATTI POSTED THIS BUT HERE IS THE PART ON THE DIET............Open Original Shared Link).html

3. I FOUND THAT OTHER FORUM SO HARD TO FOLLOW ON THERE AND WHEN RESEARCHING ON 'DUMPING' JUST COUDN'T SEEM TO FIND MUCH.

MAYBE YOU CAN COMMENT ON THE QUESTIONS I got from your post WHEN YOU HAVE TIME. SINCE YOU'VE BEEN DOING THIS SO LONG........IT WILL BE GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US.

THANKS

JUDY IN PHILLY

patti......you know i love your kitty.......but where is your beautiful new hair cut?????

sorry just had to mention.........i know your a 'TAD BUSY THESE DAYS' lol

[jerseyangel]

Judy--

I know, I know--but now I have to locate the camera I'm living amid a sea of boxes

[amanda nc]

Hi all,

I am looking forward to finding recipes here too!!

I only have a few minutes, but wanted to comment on the dumping cycles. When we first started the diet, my whole family got "sick." I got very sick--as I often did at the time--with a looming kidney infection, and felt like I had the flu. I was sick for almost three weeks. My husband got pretty severe respiratory symptoms, and also felt flu-like, again for about three weeks. Sick enough to cancel a weekend vacation.

If I had had any idea this was related to the diet, I think I would have given up on it!! It wasn't until later that we all began to talk about how LONG the dumping can be. I went several weeks then feeling MUCH better, and then a shorter dumping cycle, and so on, until I stabilized. I'd have to check notes to see how long that took.

People talk about their kids "regressing," I wonder if they are just plain sick, like I was. It is thought that, when the oxalate crystals form, they trap toxins that are in the body. The toxins can be almost anything--metals, candida, virals, etc. And then, when the crystals are released, the toxins are released as well. That's why many with autistic kids see regressed behavior they haven't seen in years! Also, many of the diet have gotten strep right after beginning the diet. Again, they suspect that strep virus is released and reinfects the child. In my case, I suspect that I have been fighting systemic candida for years, and probably have metal issues as well. And I think it was candida that was released and got me "toxic" for a few weeks.

The respiratory thing that my husband had going on is common also. He has always had allergy stuff going on, and we think that, in his case, oxalate crystals were being released from lung tissue. My youngest daughter had the same symptoms as my husband.

It is known that oxalates gravitate toward and then attach to damaged tissue. The sharp crystals, embedded in the damaged tissue, make it hard for the tissue to heal. This was the original hope for the diet with autistic kids. Their guts weren't healing for some reason, and Susan Owens wondered if the low oxalate diet might get rid of crystals that might be impeding the healing process. She did not expect the other gains, though!! Wonderful gains in language, physical ability, mental ability, etc. This has led to a theory that the crystals are embedded in tissue throughout the body--including, perhaps, in the brain. And when the crystals are released, the tissue is no longer aggravated and inflamed, and can finally heal.

So this is why the improvements seen with the diet are so diverse, and so seemingly unrelated. My husband had damaged lung tissue. I had damaged kidney tissue. My son has embedded measles virus. And so all of our "dumping symptoms" are different.

My son has the classic white crystals in his stools during dumping periods. I do not; I get very cloudy urine, and sometimes black flecks in the stool, which might possibly be iron, according to Susan. I also feel sick, and weepy--the weepiness and depression was very hard to deal with in the beginning of the diet. Taking calcium citrate helps some with the symptoms. Haven't had the guts to ask my husband!

Several years ago, I was getting kidney infections so frequently that I ended up on a daily antibiotic. I believe this is what tipped the scales for me--I wasn't too well before that, but I was constantly sick after. I developed allergies to all the common antibiotics, and eventually had to stop them all together. The only way I could keep the kidney infections away was to drink 12 or more glasses of water daily, which I did for well over a year. The diet has fixed this. I haven't been in the emergency room with a raging infection since I began the diet!!

I will try to find my old posts on my progress, and copy them over here. For me, I have found that a combination of the LOD, mold and yeast-free, low salicylate diets keeps us at our best. The mold-free diet especially has been BIG for my family; we just added that in a couple of months ago.

When my oxalate intake gets too high, I do not see any immediate problems; the problems come in after several days. I begin to get what I thought were my old "kidney issues"--I get kidney pain, my eyelids and face get puffy, my face breaks out, my back begins to hurt, and I start waking in the night. I also have to get up in the night to use the bathroom. These are the same symptoms that appear during dumping periods for me.

I'll see if I can find old posts!

Amanda in NC

[amanda nc]

Judy in Philly,

I think you got an old book. The newer one is called, "Volume 2." It has good, updated testing of products. I know that the recipes are not gluten-free/cf, but I was able to modify many, and there are a few that worked right out of the box. We cannot use any vinegar (mold-free diet) and that was actually the bigger problem for us! There are rice muffins and rice-based shortbread cookies that are gluten-free. But, again, I think the bigger contribution of the cookbook is the information about the diet itself, and the numerical oxalate ratings.

The LOD is like a calorie-counting diet. You need to keep to between 40-60 to be considered low oxalate. But, if you have the actual numerical values, you can "spend" your daily ration wisely! For instance, I eat spaghetti with tomato sauce on a regular basis. We just cut back elsewhere for the day. And, the way I make it, the count just isn't that high (10 mg. per cup of sauce, and about 10 mg for the noodles--again, about a cup.) That's kind of high for a meal, but my kids REALLY missed the spaghetti, and I did too, as it's an easy meal. And I am finding ways to stretch the sauce further with more veggies and meat. So we do the diet differently than most people on the board.

It is upsetting to me that so many on the yahoo group haven't gotten the book. In my opinion, it would be impossible to do the diet long-term without the actual numerical counts. There are some spices, for instance, that are high, but if you use just a little in a recipe, they are still ok. And "high" can mean 40 mg or 1,000 mg. There's lots of leeway if you study the book.

So that's why I send people to the book instead of the Yahoo group.

About Bette Hagman's mix--I am a classic oxalate responder, and have clear-cut symptoms, and have found we can use it. I probably can't give my family as many grain products when I use it, but they just won't eat the pumpkinseed flour or chestnut flour stuff. And I am so tired of learning to cook all over again. The VP Foundation cookbook says that many members try to limit their bread comsumption to one meal (like a sandwich) and then one snack. We can do a waffle at breakfast, a sandwich at lunch, and a couple of muffins or cookies with snacks. And my son went through dumping like clockwork. So I think that amount, with the Hagman mix, was ok.

Pasta is another good news item that you don't hear discussed on the board. Tinkyada brown rice noodles are something like 5 mg per 1/2 cup, so about 10 mg for a cup. Maybe less; I'll check. That is new information. It is much lower than DeBoles. Uncle Ben's converted rice is oxalate free. Yay!! I use it a LOT--it's our "free snack food" when I make a pilaf with onion, broth and saffron, and then mix in some peas. My son eats it all day for snacks--and so do the rest of us, actually!

Well-boiled red potatoes are something we eat every few days, though they're higher oxalate. We need the variety. I mash them, but they get gummy; gummy mashed potatoes are better than no mashed potatoes for my kid, though!!

Oh, SUGAR!!! I wanted to say that we initially did the diet with lots of sugar, as I just couldn't make the transition without it. We did get yeast problems, but we also reaped all the benefits of the diet. We have come back now to do a big yeast push, and are doing really great. But my son made really great gains WITH the sugar. Better without it, but still did well with it. So did I; all my symptoms resolved except for yeast. And now we've added an anti-candida diet in to try to take care of that. The two diets together are working very well for us.

Amanda in NC

[Judyin Philly]

Oh my Gosh Amanda nc............you are such a blessing to me and I'll bet many others on this thread.

you are my stories are so much ALIKE.

I'M SO VERY HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE.............THANKS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH FOR ALL THE TIME YOU TOOK WITH YOUR POSTS TODAY.

I'M GOING TO PRINT THEM OUT............THEY ARE THAT IMPORTANT TO MY NEEDS.

I WAS GOING NUTS IN THE BEGINNING UNTIL PATTI AND ROBBIN TOLD ME TO JUST COUNT THE AMOUNTS AND DON'T TRY TO DO THE ..........total cut out of all high oxalates and it worked......

heck we don't use 1 1/4 tsp of pepper in the serving of a prepared meat product so that advice really helped me see the big picture.

I'll see if i can find that recipe for the apple cake and you can see if you see why i could have bothered me.

I'll post for others to see. I still have to get the med oxalate foods ....imbedded...in my mind.......but will be easier with out the BRAIN FOG............THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE BLESSINGS I FOUND.

I HAVE FOUND UTI'S FOR YEARS BEFORE 2 1/2 YEARS AGO GOING gluten-free..ETC. NOW ALMOST NO ANTIBIOTIC'S .............AGREE WITH ME............ONLY DOXY..AND CLINDEMYCIN.

THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN FOR THE WONDERFUL POST............WE NEED YOU HERE SO COME WHEN YOU CAN.

JUDY IN PHILLY

PS GOING TO GET THE SECOND BOOK.

[Matilda]

...

[Rachel--24]

Hi Amanda.....thanks for joining in and sharing your story. Its very helpful.

This from Susan Owens today at LOD yahoo group about yeast and LOD:

"The sense of this is that oxalate may depress immune recognition of candida

through indirect effects on the biotin and carboxylase chemistry. That's

why candida might get worse while dumping. Are you people getting a

reprieve when the child isn't dumping? Can you tell?"

It makes sense that candida would flare during "dumping".

Our bodies are a whole eco-system...there are metals, bacteria, yeast, oxalates....and all sorts of toxins playing a role when we have symptoms of chronic illness.

These things are not hanging out seperately...they are very much living together in the most toxic areas of our bodies. You cant treat one thing without also disturbing all the rest. If oxalates are binding with yeast and metals....if the oxalates start moving...so do the metals and yeast. This causes a flare-up of symptoms...die-off, dumping, mobilized metals....whatever you choose to call it...its basically the same thing.

Every one of my Dr.'s explained this to me at the start of my treatment. Once we start chelating metals....*anything* to move the metals will cause yeast symptoms to increase...significantly. Same thing with yeast treatment...if there is nothing in place to protect from the release of metals and redistribution....we will most definately feel it taking place.

I imagine that its no different with oxalates...there will be mobilization of metals and a flare up of yeast as well. Metals and yeast go hand-in-hand....in nature yeast/molds have the highest ability to bind heavy metals.

This is where toxin binders are important...especially when it comes to the metals. You dont want metals to be redistributed (where they can possibly cause even more damage)...you want them to be excreted.

Also the kidneys are particularly vulnerable because they are usually already heavily burdened by heavy metals (mercury tends to accumulate in the kidneys). A release of metals from other areas can put a great deal of stress on the kidneys. The kidneys really require alot of support during detoxification. Lots and lots of water, toxin binders as well as some type of kidney support can prevent alot of the symptoms of "dumping".

I believe that these are all tied in together....its not likely that the increase in symptoms or "flare-ups" are solely caused by oxalates. These are typical symptoms of heavy metal redistribution.

Personally, I think all toxins which are released and circulating are putting alot of stress on the body...but the ones that can do the most damage are the metals.

Its very well known that yeast binds with mercury. The worlds most experienced Dr. with regards to heavy metal detox had his own theory about yeast die-off. Basically, he didnt feel that it was yeast toxins causing these terrible die-off symptoms...he believed it was the metals which are released into the system when we do anything to kill off the yeast.

To "test" his theory when he had patients who were going through major die-off symptoms he gave them a shot of DMPS...(a strong chelator of heavy metals). Whenever he did this the die-off would immediately stop. DMPS is a treatment for heavy metals....nothing else. If it truelly were yeast toxins causing those symptoms...DMPS would have no effect on the symptoms.

From what I've read about oxalates...they seem to have an affinity for binding with minerals....including heavy metals.

I did not have a problem with either yeast or oxalates until I became mercury toxic.

I know that there is an unproven theory (with studies currently underway) that the immune system *allows* for a yeast overgrowth in a situation of heavy metal toxicity.

This is the theory..

Most - if not all - chronic infectious diseases are not caused by a failure of the immune system, but are a conscious adaptation of the immune system to an otherwise lethal heavy metal environment.

Mercury suffocates the intracellular respiratory mechanism and can cause cell death. So, the immune system makes a deal: it cultivates fungi and bacteria that can bind large amounts of toxic metals. The gain: the cells can breathe. The cost. the system has to provide nutrition for the microorganisms and has to deal with their metabolic products ("toxins").

That does not imply that the tolerated guest cannot grow out of control, as it sometimes clearly does. Therefore, there is still a limited place for antifungal antibacterial treatment - but only for the acute phase of the disease.

A so-called "die-off effect" (the sometimes severe crisis or even lethal reaction a patient can have in the initial stages of aggressive pharmaceutical antifungal or antibacterial treatment) is often nothing else but acute heavy metal toxicity - metals released from the cell walls of dying microorganisms as suggested by my own correlation of clinical syndromes and urinalysis for metals.

Colleagues in Germany are working on a study at this time. Preliminary results show a dramatic improvement in clinical and scientific parameters in chronic Candidiasis using the Klinghardt protocol or heavy metal detoxification

I personally very much believe that there is truth in this.

It makes me wonder about oxalates. If they have the ability to bind metals (in the same way that yeasts and molds do) it seems that as long as the metals remain in the body we will continue to have problems with oxalate containing foods.

As long as a person is toxic from heavy metals.... the body will always hold onto yeasts and molds for the purpose of protecting us. Maybe it does the same with oxalates??

The metals can do some serious damage if not for the yeasts ability to bind with them...preventing so much cell death and damage caused by metals moving around the body.

[amanda nc]

Matilda,

No!! The missing pages you mentioned are MOST of the food listing!! You should call the VP Foundation--they'll send another for you. Or did you get it on Amazon? Was it used? It sounds like someone took the food listing out and sold the rest of the book.....

You feel better on rice and potatoes rather than the SCD??!! That was US!! I really, really hope you might look into Dr. Semon's Four Stages diet. I saw earlier in this thread that you guys mentioned "a lady who does Dr. Semon's diet", and that was me. I've been plugging it everywhere I can think of. His anti-candida diet is different from the others you've seen, that don't allow any grains, potatoes or honey. On his version of the diet, he allows brown rice, potatoes and honey--he says that molds and yeast DO NOT grow on honey, and while it might as a sugar feed Candida somewhat, it is not a problem for most people.....he insists that the sweets are not the major reason people can't get rid of Candida, but that eating things that are GROWTH FACTORS for Candida are. He is a former cancer nutrition researcher, and well-respected. He does say that meat can cause problems for people who are mold-sensitive,a nd that in his practice, people who cut out all grains did not make headway against Candida, but that those who cut back on meat and ate whole grains do. His book is "An Extraordinary Power to Heal," and another, more abbreviated version with recipes is "Feast Without Yeast." But his diet is not just yeast-free, it is also mold-free, and also excludes all known neurotoxins in foods, as well as all known Candida growth factors. His organization's website is www.nutritioninstitute.com , and his diet, in conjunction with the LOD, has made my son NORMAL again. Really. And I have energy! And I have been fighting pretty severe depression for years--it is gone now! Staying really low on the LOD seems somehow to help with some of the same things Dr. Semon's diet does, and I do not do so well on one without the other. I don't know why. Anyway, I am really high on his diet, as it is doable for my family--and SCD, without any grain, was really, really hard, and after a year and a half, we gave up to go onto other things.

Now, off my Dr. Semon soapbox!! I am really hoping the LOD is a short-term diet for us. Maybe a couple of years. We already, after a year, can do more oxalates without getting into trouble. I have fluctuated between staying really low for awhile and then going a bit higher for awhile while I tweaked our diets in different ways. For instance, we found that staying really low salicylate allowed my whole family to sleep! So we had to work to add that in. And then the Dr. Semon diet. We are working at getting really low for awhile again.

I do not know if you will reap many benefits from the diet if you don't get under 60 mg. of oxalate a day. So cutting back might not reap many rewards, though staying really high can do damage.

Get a new copy of that book!!! The missing pages are the most important part of the book.

[Rachel--24]

But his diet is not just yeast-free, it is also mold-free, and also excludes all known neurotoxins in foods, as well as all known Candida growth factors.

This is pretty much how my diet is as well...yeast free, mold free, 100% avoidance of neurotoxins, very low salicylates, low amines (only very fresh meat) and anti candida.

I have the biggest problems with yeast and mold...then it seems that oxalates would be next in line. The foods which are high in molds as well as oxalates are the worst.

I'm another one who got worse on SCD...I actually got *alot* worse trying that diet.

[Matilda]

...

[Rachel--24]

Amanda,

I'm curious about Vitamin C. What is your experience with it?

I've read that excess Vitamin C can convert to oxalate for up to 2 weeks!

I've had problems with Vitamin C since I got sick....I always react to it....sometimes the reaction hits pretty quickly....other times its delayed.

When my body seems "overloaded"....like it would if I was continuously eating high oxalate foods...I will pretty much start reacting to everything I eat. It will get to the point that I'm reacting as I'm eating or immediately after eating.

I've always believed that it was caused by an overload of some type of chemical or compound in the foods. Can it work that way with oxalates??

Also, I have multiple chemical sensitivities which is significantly more noticeable after eating high oxalate or high mold containing foods. Other times its not as bad.

I never could figure out what the problem with vitamin C was until I started learning more about oxalates....so it *may* be related but I cant say for sure.

Anyways, I had an IV last week which contained vitamin C. I was worried about reacting but I was hoping that it was a gut based reaction that I usually get and that the IV would by-pass that. Well....after the IV I definately got all the symptoms.

My inflammation seems to be mostly in my head/shoulders....particularly the sinuses and the jaw. I also have some problems in the gut. The rest of my body is affected but not as noticeably....I've been on restricted diets for a long time now and as a result I'm not having "all over" pain like I once did.

The Dr.'s found that theres alot of mercury in my jaw, brain stem, thyroid.....and that seems to be the reason for so much toxicity and fungus in my upper body...there is also a heavy load in my gut and kidneys.

If I'm reacting to the Vitamin C because of oxalates....could the symptoms flare-up so quickly? Would it depend on the amount I'm consuming in food at the same time? In other words...is it the same as with salicylates and other intolerances....as far as having a threshold which would differ from one person to the next?

I have another IV tomorrow....the last one was a "practice" to see how well I could tolerate the vitamin C, minerals and glutathione which were in the IV.

Tomorrow DMPS will be added into the IV. I dont want to deal with the reaction from the vitamin C again so I'm gonna call and ask if its totally necessary to have the C in my IV....or if it can at least be reduced.

In the meantime I'm still trying to determine whether or not the reaction could have been related to oxalates. Do you know if the reaction can happen that quickly?? I was feeling the inflammation within 10 minutes of finishing my IV.

[gfmolly]

Hello,

How do you know that you have trouble with High oxylate foods? I've looked up a list of those foods, and would have to say my stomach is tender to many of them. Obviously I am off any gluten-containing grain, but soy was one of my first intolerances, and I've since added it back to my diet for variety. I eat peanut butter everyday, seemingly w/o problem! I love zucchini, summer squash and potatoes! So what are the symptoms? Are they similar to when glutened? Here's my situation:

I've been having a great week and have not slipped up at all. For lunch I took my son to culver's and had a cashew chix salad, and didn't feel great afterward. Yesterday for dinner I made a vegetarian enchilada with sweet pot, carrots and zucchini. I was still hungry before bed so I had envirokids peanut butter cereal with silk soymilk. After the cereal my stomach became very noisy and is right now! I will probably be fine after I go to the bathroom, but for the time being, I just don't feel good! Is there a way to tell if that was from gluten (cc) or the high oxylates?

Is the fix to try LOD and see if my symptoms dissapear, much like when I went Gluten-free Casein-free? Could I just be developing a stronger intolerance to soy? Is there testing for this that is not diet-related?

Sorry for all of the questions. I've been poking my head in your thread for a while now wondering...

Terri