Sluggish Liver Behind Health Problems..........

[AliB]

I have realised that a sluggish liver is behind a lot of my ongoing health issues.

I know it has been sluggish for years and I kinda ignored it - as you do. The poor old liver doesn't get much press unfortunately - not nearly as much as it should and is largely ignored.

The trouble is that a sluggish liver does not show up on normal medical tests. As long as it is working, as far as Docs are concerned, you are ok. The tests don't measure how well it is working, or whether it is congested or fatty.

Our diet controls how efficient our livers are. It is a huge powerhouse of the body that is continuously filtering the blood and pumping out enzymes and other factors to regulate our bodies' functions. If it starts to labor under stress then we start to get sick. The harder it has to work, the more congested it becomes, the sicker we get.

I thought about doing a few liver flushes but decided they were a bit too harsh so have opted for the slower and more gentle route of taking milk thistle. I took it for a few weeks before going gluten-free then about 10 days after starting the diet my liver had a clear-out - I could actually feel stuff going down the tubes! Weird! The liver was a bit sore for a few days but soon recovered.

At the moment I am getting a bit of upper backache when I eat which I suspect is the liver, my back has become very itchy - itchy skin is a sure sign of a liver problem, and my digestion still isn't quite right so I have gone back to the milk thistle again. I'm throwing lots of supplements at myself and taking some homeopathic Candida tablets too. I'm still getting the heart-pounding/throbbing thing but it does seem a little better.

I'm sure if I can get my liver cleared out I will start to feel a lot better. About 20 years ago I went to a lady who was a herbalist and acupuncturist and she was giving me acupuncture to stimulate my liver and spleen back then. I did feel great for a while. Shame I couldn't afford to keep it going!

[Di-gfree]

Thanks for this information. I'm getting pain every now and then in my liver area, too. I did have liver damage from a chinese herb quite a few years back, but my blood tests are showing everything is 'fine' now. Are you taking a liquid or capsule form of milk thistle?

[ptkds]

So, what were your symptoms? I have been having problems lately, and I have wondered if it were my liver. My heart races and pounds. I also have some hand joint pain, and when i take ibuprofen, they feel ten times worse! So I have wondered about my liver causing this because maybe it can't process the ibuprofen like it should. And when i had some blood work done a while back, some of my liver numbers were off, and the dr said it could be a "fatty liver." No one has been able to really tell me why my heart races or why my hands hurt. What do you think? Could it be a liver problem causing all of this?

How much milk thistle do you take to cleanse the liver?

[Rachel--24]

My heart races and pounds. I also have some hand joint pain, and when i take ibuprofen, they feel ten times worse! So I have wondered about my liver causing this because maybe it can't process the ibuprofen like it should.

Have you heard of salicylate sensitivity??

If you cant process the ibuprofen and it is causing a worsening of symptoms....it is most likely due to an inability to process salicylates.

This happens when the enzyme necessary in processing food chemicals (phenols/salicylates/amines) is not functioning as it should.

The reactions to foods and medications containing salicylate are caused by the body's inability to process them. Reactions are dose related....symptoms appear when the amount of salicylates (or other phenols) accumulate to levels which are toxic to the body. When the enzyme is functioning normally these chemicals do not cause harm....its only when they are unable to be processed that they are able to accumulate and cause symptoms.

When the body is dealing with toxicity from any source it does put stress on the liver...as well as the immune system. Salicylates and phenols are no different. They are toxic in high amounts.

The accumulation of phenols in the body exerts a toxic effect. The reactions are not considered "allergy" type reactions....they are "toxicological".

If you're experiencing a worsening in symptoms when taking aspirin/ibuprofen....salicylates would be the first thing to look into. Many foods are high in salicylate....especially herbs, spices, fruits and veggies. If you find that your symptoms worsen when eating the foods that contain high amounts of salicylate...it could be that your PST/sulfation is weak.

PST = phenolsulphotransferase. Its an enzyme which is involved in sulfation.....one of the body's key detoxification pathways.

When the enzyme is weak...detoxification is impaired. The PST enzyme detoxifies salicylates, phenols, neurotransmitters, hormones, medications, etc. Salicylates can inhibit the enzyme up to 50%.

"Some people have too little of an important enzyme called phenol sulfotransferase (PST). It is made in the intestines, which need PST to metabolize (detoxify) the salicylates and the high-phenolic petroleum-based additives.

However, the brain also requires PST for "housekeeping" duties involving neurotransmitters- those chemicals which jump the tiny space (synapse) between brain cells (neurons). Each time a neuron "fires" and the neruotransmitter "jums" that space, PST must prepare the space to "fire" again. This is measured in nanoseconds, occurs millions of times a second all over the brain and must be perfectly synchronized.

If a person is marginal or low in PST, and eats lots of high-phenolic foods and additives, there may not be enough PST left to do the "cleanup up" work in the brain, thus preventing neurons from firing effectively. Moreover, it seems that salicylates (which are also phenolic compounds) not only need PST but actually suppress it's production, making PST levels even lower.

This explanation is over-simplified and the evidence is indirect, but it may help explain why the avoidance of salicylates at the start of the Feingold Program is important. Once suppression is stopped, there may be some recovery, leading to the later tolerance of salicylates usually seen. Surely, this is only part of a larger and complex picture, but in this area the circumstantial evidence is mounting.

The PST sulfation pathway is necessary for the breakdown and removal of certain toxins in the body. This includes the processing of a type of chemical called a phenol. Phenols are a regular and necessary part of life. All foods contain some phenolic compounds. However, some foods have a much higher content than others do. If the sulfation pathway is not functioning well, a person may not be able to process out the phenolic compounds as fast as they consume them. There is a cumulative effect. When the phenols start backing up in the system, it can cause a myriad of negative reactions

From my research....the main reason for low functioning PST is low sulfate in the body. Sulfate is essential to keep PST functioning....sulfate is also necessary in maintaing the integrity of the intestinal lining.

Low sulfate levels = increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut).

Low sulfate can occur for a variety of reasons. Some gut infections (bacteria/yeast) can produce large amounts of phenols....which may overload the PST enzyme....causing a shortage of available sulfate. There are other reasons but it can get quite complicated so I'll leave it at that.

Anyways, yes.....all of this does place stress on the liver. If the gut is leaky that creates a huge burden on the liver as well. However, when PST is down.....the only way to take stress off of the liver is to take stress off of the PST enzyme.

Aspirin, high phenolic foods, artificial flavorings, food dyes and preservatives are some of the things which inhibit the enzyme.

I have posted alot on this board regarding phenols and PST/sulfation......you can also google these things. Theres alot of info. available.

Heres a few links.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Ali,

I thought I would mention that cocoa has very high amounts of phenol/histamine.

[AliB]

I do have an intolerance of salicylates - I can't take aspirin - so far I have coped with ibuprofen but I don't have to take it very often and avoid taking anything if I can help it.

The salicylate thing was brought home to me last year when I did the alkalizing diet - I was eating a lot of veg - which on its own I may have been able to cope with but I was also taking the 'green' drink (wheat grass!! etc.) and after 4 weeks or so I couldn't carry on with it as my stomach got so sore.

It seems that, being a 'protein' type, my body naturally needs to be on the acidic side and I probably alkalized my self too much! Adding into the pot the salicylate problem and it was doomed to failure from the off! Weirdly though, I did lose weight, my blood sugar went right down, the general candida problems cleared up and so did the IBS, but then I wasn't eating much in the way of grains so was probably inadvertently avoiding gluten!

I am better than I was, but am still getting this backache when I eat, and some gas and the pounding heart thing is of concern - it is all connected to food, but I can't figure out what it is. I did wonder whether I am not producing enough Amylase to digest the few carbs I am consuming. I had dinner earlier - pork chop, 1 spoonful of potato and a few green beans and some fruit salad (melon, peaches, kiwi and lychees) with some coconut cream and was ok apart from a bit of the ubiquitous backache.

Then, stupidly, I ate a gluten-free commercially-made toffee-chip biscuit about an hour ago and the gas and belching started shortly after - that makes me wonder about the possible lack of amylase, but it could also be sugar! See what I mean? Could be bloomin' anything!

Sluggish liver could certainly account for the fatigue that has dogged me all my life and possibly even the Candida too as it can also contribute to a compromised immune system and the body's inability to control the candida.

I do think with the Salicylate thing that if we took natural aspirin we probably would not have anything like the intolerance. Sadly, medical science just extracts what they deem to be the 'active' ingredient and ignore the rest of the substances in the plant that are undoubtedly there to act as buffers and liver support. Talk about throwing the 'baby out with the bathwater'. These God-made all-natural fantastically designed medical supports are out there but man just has to go and ruin everything he touches - us included, and for what? The filthy lucre.....

The Milk Thistle I take is 175mg capsules. I take 2 - 3 a day as directed on the pack. They do vary, but there should be instructions with it when you buy it.

The trouble with Liver panels is that although they pick up certain abnormalities, they don't pick up that the liver is sluggish or fatty, etc. If it is still managing to produce the few substances they test for then as far as they are concerned it is ok.

My heart doesn't race particularly but it does pound - well it is like everything is throbbing, not just my heart - I can feel it in my hands and feet. It's been doing it for a few years but is getting worse - it is keeping me awake at night - more from worry than anything - everything seems worse at night! Sometimes it is better - not gone, but only marginal so it is obviously food-based. Other times my body just feels so stressed with it - I can't lay on my left side as it makes it worse.

As for the pain in your hands - try googling 'reflexology hand chart'. If I get pains in my feet I look it up on reflexology. Sometimes you can see from the chart what the pain is linked to. When my liver had the clear-out a few months back, at the same time I got quite an intense throbbing pain under my left foot for a few hours. On the reflexology chart it equated with the right of the liver and sure enough, when I felt the ribs under my right arm-pit it was quite sore. I'm actually feeling something going on there just now round in the right of my upper back so maybe it is having another clear-out!

[Rachel--24]

I'm thinking more along the lines of dysbiosis for these types of problems. The problem with PST is very common in autistic children.....along with low sulfate, dysbiosis and leaky gut.

I also have big problems with phenols (one of the most pronounced my Dr. has seen). PST/sulfation is impaired but we dont know the exact cause yet. I've done additional testing (mostly gut related) and am awaiting results....still working on other things as well.

I do have dysbiosis. Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis (from July 2005) shows everything within reference range...although my pH was borderline. I've had urine tests which were extremely alkaline....despite a highly acidic diet. This suggests infection.

By the way....the CDSA is a valuable test which looks at the digestive markers, gut immunolology/inflammation, gut metabolism and bacteriology (beneficial bacteria/pathogenic organisms).

The two most important species of beneficial bacteria are Lactobacillus and Bifobacterium. They are the predominant species of beneficial flora....and I had no growth of either one. I was on a very strict anti-candida at the time...and was also taking plenty of probiotics. I had no growth of these organisms despite all of that.

As far as yeast...I had a small amount (NOT candida albicans).

So what is taking up all of the space in my gut?? Its definately not the "good guys"....and a year later (2005) I tested positive for clostridium difficile (a pathogen)....and around the same time I had a light overgrowth of Candida Albicans (I was off of the strict diet).

I have more experienced Dr.'s since those earlier days and am now repeating the CDSA....and I have also taken the organic acid test....both really good for looking into the gut issues.

This microflora plays critical roles in the digestion and absorption of nutrients, in the synthesis of vitamins (B and K groups) and fatty acids, in the detoxification of ingested chemicals, but also in the regulation of the immune system.

Alterations in the composition of the gut microflora may have serious consequences for the host health.

Gut dysbiosis: production of toxic compounds through fermentation also depends on the type of bacteria present in the bowel. In case of dysbiosis, overgrown pathogenic bacteria produce toxins and compounds that are very detrimental to intestinal cells. For instance, sulfate-reducing bacteria produce toxic hydrogen sulfide.

As stated in my previous post....sulfate is necessary for detoxification of phenols (among other things) as well as mainintaining a healthy intestinal lining. An overgrowth of certain bacteria can reduce available sulfate in the body. Dysbiosis is an altered gut ecology.....the balance of good/bad organisms is disturbed. Pathogens rule the gut....while friendly bacteria are in the minority...this leads to alot of the health problems we see.

Also, estrogen is a hormone which is detoxified through PST/sulfation.....too much estrogen can also overload the PST enzyme....and at the same time it is depleting available sulfate.

An often ignored source of estrogen is from intestinal yeast. Yeast make estradiol, the strongest of the human estrogens. However, yeast isn

[purple]

Have you heard of salicylate sensitivity??

If you cant process the ibuprofen and it is causing a worsening of symptoms....it is most likely due to an inability to process salicylates.

This happens when the enzyme necessary in processing food chemicals (phenols/salicylates/amines) is not functioning as it should.

The reactions to foods and medications containing salicylate are caused by the body's inability to process them. Reactions are dose related....symptoms appear when the amount of salicylates (or other phenols) accumulate to levels which are toxic to the body. When the enzyme is functioning normally these chemicals do not cause harm....its only when they are unable to be processed that they are able to accumulate and cause symptoms.

When the body is dealing with toxicity from any source it does put stress on the liver...as well as the immune system. Salicylates and phenols are no different. They are toxic in high amounts.

The accumulation of phenols in the body exerts a toxic effect. The reactions are not considered "allergy" type reactions....they are "toxicological".

If you're experiencing a worsening in symptoms when taking aspirin/ibuprofen....salicylates would be the first thing to look into. Many foods are high in salicylate....especially herbs, spices, fruits and veggies. If you find that your symptoms worsen when eating the foods that contain high amounts of salicylate...it could be that your PST/sulfation is weak.

PST = phenolsulphotransferase. Its an enzyme which is involved in sulfation.....one of the body's key detoxification pathways.

When the enzyme is weak...detoxification is impaired. The PST enzyme detoxifies salicylates, phenols, neurotransmitters, hormones, medications, etc. Salicylates can inhibit the enzyme up to 50%.

From my research....the main reason for low functioning PST is low sulfate in the body. Sulfate is essential to keep PST functioning....sulfate is also necessary in maintaing the integrity of the intestinal lining.

Low sulfate levels = increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut).

Low sulfate can occur for a variety of reasons. Some gut infections (bacteria/yeast) can produce large amounts of phenols....which may overload the PST enzyme....causing a shortage of available sulfate. There are other reasons but it can get quite complicated so I'll leave it at that.

Anyways, yes.....all of this does place stress on the liver. If the gut is leaky that creates a huge burden on the liver as well. However, when PST is down.....the only way to take stress off of the liver is to take stress off of the PST enzyme.

Aspirin, high phenolic foods, artificial flavorings, food dyes and preservatives are some of the things which inhibit the enzyme.

I have posted alot on this board regarding phenols and PST/sulfation......you can also google these things. Theres alot of info. available.

Heres a few links.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Ali,

I thought I would mention that cocoa has very high amounts of phenol/histamine.

So, Rachel, your last sentence here talks about cocoa. My question is can cocoa or chocolate make your heart beat irregularly? I am not sick nor Celiac nor allergic to gluten. Also would chocolate be bad for those with allergies to dust and dander? Thanks for all your wisdom to everyone! Sorry, I don't know how to post a quoted sentence.

[Rachel--24]

So, Rachel, your last sentence here talks about cocoa. My question is can cocoa or chocolate make your heart beat irregularly? I am not sick nor Celiac nor allergic to gluten. Also would chocolate be bad for those with allergies to dust and dander?

Chocolate can make the heart beat irregularly if you're sensitive. Alot of other foods can do the same thing. I think its more common to be reactive to chemicals found in foods (such as phenols) rather than the foods themselves. Chocolate contains vasoactive amines. Amines can accumulate the same way that salicylates do.

If the body cannot detoxify them....they circulate and cause reaction.

Very often people who are sensitive to salicylates are also sensitive to amines. I'm sensitive to both.

Sorry, I don't know how to post a quoted sentence.

Just delete any text in the quote that you dont want....and leave the rest. Make sure you leave the "quote tags" surrounding the text intact.

[ptkds]

So, what exactly can I do to fix this imbalance? I am so tired of going to dr.s and getting the runaround. No one seems to be able to tell me what is wrong. My cardiologist says all my tests are normal, my PCP says everything is ok, though some numbers are off, and my rheumatologist says everything is fine, but I may have fibromyalgia (even though I am not in severe pain like most fibro patients).

I am just desperate to get better. I am tired of being in pain and too tired to do anything. Please help me figure out what to do next!

[AliB]

That last quote of yours was interesting Rachel about gut dysbiosis and SBBO - can I ask what the source was as I would like to read that in full?

You may well be right about the dysbiosis. I had a lot of colds and URT infections as a child and was given the ubiquitous AB's in copious amounts so it would not be surprising if my gut is completely trashed. I have managed to avoid them in the most part during my adult life as I appreciated quite early on that they were destructive - but the early use may well have altered my gut flora almost irreversibly and may well explain why the fatigue set in at such an early age.

If only the damn doctors would test for all this we would be such a darn sight better off!

Have you had Colonic Irrigation? Has it made any difference?

I just don't know what to eat at the moment. I am limiting foods to protein and veg and very little carbs if I can help it but sometimes I am hungry and just end up eating the wrong things.

My stomach is not right - certainly not in the pain like I was before gluten-free but still not happy. I seem to be getting bloating back - a sure sign that bacteria are having a field day somewhere! I just keep feeling that if it carries on like this I will be back to square one with no gluten to drop any more to make it better. The gluten is gone, the dairy is gone, the carbs are at minimum and I am thoroughly fed up - not to mention worried that if it carries on I might end up with something much more sinister!

[ShayFL]

Open Original Shared Link

[Rachel--24]

Personally, I would not recommend liver flushes. For some people they cause more harm than good.

I'm not too much into self-diagnosing or guessing at which treatment might help (but you probably already knew that ).

Ali, there are some good tests available for figuring out the gut issues. Just dont expect your regular doctor's to know anything about them. They do not get into the underlying issues.....they simply give the labels out "IBS", "Chronic Fatigue", "Fibromyalgia", "Hypochondriach"....whatever they feel like calling it.

I stick with the Dr.'s who are outside of the mainstream and who are treating these problems on a daily basis....mainly because they are working with autism and people with similar problems (such as myself). Regular doctors dont have any answers for autism...and they arent going to look at dysbiosis, leaky gut or any of the other problems associated with the condition. They dont have any knowledge about it.....its not their field of expertise. They are much better at handing at pills.

No, I have not had colonics....although I know many who have. It does help because it removes some of the toxic waste....however, its not a "cure". You have to get rid of the pathogens and restore balance in the body.

I'll be back later to find the source of my quote....I literally have hundreds of links saved.....and not in a very orderly way......but I have to be somewhere shortly.

[ShayFL]

I have personally never done a liver flush (they scare me) or a colonic (I dunno....seems that my adhesions that make my intestines into a woven basket that sticking something up there and digging around isnt such a good idea) ......But that is just me.

[AliB]

A colonic is only water Shay! A lot of water granted, but only water. The idea is to 'wash out' the inside of the colon and get rid of putrefactive and compacted matter along with any parasites and unwanted bacteria. A good colonicist should usually give you a good dose of probiotic cultures to repopulate the bowel. I've heard some good things about it but never tried it.

I also wonder whether fasting could help to sort the gut out. It was practiced a lot back in Bible times but few seem to do it these days. Never fancied doing it myself and with the Diabetes it might be difficult, but thinking logically it might just starve the little beasties out (and me too!).

I have never fancied doing a Liver Flush either although again I have heard some good things about them. A friend was saying that she knows a lady who has been keeping her husband alive for years with regular flushes and other non-medical treatment, when the Doctors had given up on him.

I suspect the little beggars have just merely adapted to the new gluten-free and Dairy-free and low-carb environment and are busy proliferating away quite happily. I think the fungal things have improved a bit as I am no longer getting the itchy, greasy scalp and for the first time in my life now only need to wash my hair once or twice a week rather than every other day. There are other indications too that I won't go into but suffice it to say the evidence is no longer much apparent. Not totally gone, but better, so whatever it is it may not now be Candida or its ilk.

I had a test done for Helicobacter which came back negative, but I am wondering whether to go back to my doc and ask for more parasite testing. I had a very bad stomach about 18 months ago and had a stool test done for food poisoning from Environmental Health dept at the Local Council but that didn't throw anything up either (although I did!).

[ShayFL]

A colonic is only water Shay! A lot of water granted, but only water. The idea is to 'wash out' the inside of the colon and get rid of putrefactive and compacted matter along with any parasites and unwanted bacteria. A good colonicist should usually give you a good dose of probiotic cultures to repopulate the bowel. I've heard some good things about it but never tried it.

We have a well know colonics place here run by a woman named Billie Odor. I dont lie.

I also wonder whether fasting could help to sort the gut out. It was practiced a lot back in Bible times but few seem to do it these days. Never fancied doing it myself and with the Diabetes it might be difficult, but thinking logically it might just starve the little beasties out (and me too!).

This interests me as well. But I worry about my blood sugar and the fact I hate being hungry. Woke up last night at 3 am hungry. I basically just started SCD, so I think my body misses all of those carbs.

I think the fungal things have improved a bit as I am no longer getting the itchy, greasy scalp and for the first time in my life now only need to wash my hair once or twice a week rather than every other day.

I had greasy scalp too and flaky in some areas like around the edge of my hairline. And it completely went away when I got my Thyroid meds to a good dose. Thyroid also got rid of this strange like 2 inch square patch of hair that was as kinky as pubic hair on top of my head. My hairdresser just didnt know what to do with it as the rest of my hair has a nice slight wave.

I just ordered these probiotics. I ordered the 6 strain 50 gram powder. They are pricey. I found them while looking for a non-dairy yogurt starter. I am going to make coconut and almond milk yogurt. Someone online had a blog and really touted the yogurt culture as working well and tasting good, so I found them and discovered they make pro-biotics too. And I called and spoke to the owner of the company. These are pure human strain bacteria. None of that weird soil based organism stuff or bacteria cultured from odd places where humans would never get bacteria anyway. No fillers. No gluten. No dairy.

I was going to buy their yogurt maker, but found it 20.00 cheaper on Amazon.

***I will report back Ali!!

[ShayFL]

Oh..here is the company.

Open Original Shared Link

[Rachel--24]

Ali,

Here's the link...

Open Original Shared Link

I've included a few others as well (on the same topic of SIBO).

This one is very informative. Open Original Shared Link

This one has to do with testing, treatment, diet, etc. Open Original Shared Link

This one goes over the most commonly used tests for diagnosing these types of issues. I HIGHLY recommend the first and second tests mentioned. The organic acid test can provide alot of detail. I've mentioned it alot here because I think its one of the most useful tests available.

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

There are a number of specialized medical laboratories that have emerged in the last 10-20 years in response to the growing number of chronically ill people in the western world. Many have either been left undiagnosed by traditional medical testing, or have been diagnosed with "untreatable", or controversial illnesses, for which there is no standard treatment. These labs cater mainly to doctors practicing 'functional medicine' and offer testing of various nutrient levels, oxidative stress and digestive function to name but a few.

I posted this last quote because I think its important for people to know that there are doctors out there who understand how to treat these illnesses. There are also many labs which specialize in this type of testing.

Alot of people dont get answers from their 'regular' doctors or specialists (I was in the same boat)...but actually its not their field...they dont understand it. They were not taught this stuff in medical school....and therefore they have no knowledge about any of it.

I did spend quite a bit of time self diagnosing and self treating after I realized that I was never going to get help from any of the doctors in my HMO.

I spent alot of time on candida boards and places such as CureZone. To be honest, I never saw anyone getting better...and I wasnt getting better either. Thats why I moved away from all of that. Some of it is helpful....however, when you dont actually know what you're dealing with the chances of getting it right are pretty slim.

Eventually all I was doing was spinning my wheels....along with everyone else. For all the money wasted on supplements I could have had lots of testing done.

I did just about everything....with the exception of liver flushes and colonics. However, during that time that I was taking loads of probiotics..following a strict diet...and all of these other things....I also tested for no growth of the two most beneficial bacteria.

Personally, I dont think its all that easy to correct without knowing which pathogens to target.....plus alot of other important details about how the body is functioning.

Yes I made my own yogurt, I did enemas, I tried SBO's (not a good thing for me!), I went carb/sugar free 100% for 4 months straight, I did herbal cleanses, vegetable juicing, SCD, I tried just about every antifungal, I took tons of probitiocs...etc. etc.

The point is....I was doing the same things everyone else was doing....and not one of us really had a clue as to what we were dealing with......and not one of us was getting any better despite our best efforts.

[ShayFL]

It is so great that you have found really good doctors to work with. You are EXTREMELY blessed my dear.

Not everyone here has that luxury. Some of us are on HMO's. Some are on disability. Some just do not have access to good doctors in their area. Some are so absolutely disgusted with doctors that they cannot physically/emotionally go see yet another one.

Seek and ye shall find. It is normal, natural and healthy to look. You can find answers on your own. Having doctors who know how to treat these sorts of problems is not the only way to find help. And if you cannot find a good doctor, you do not have to give up and not try new things just because someone on this board says it didnt work for them.

I have healed my body from quite a few things without the aid of a doctor. In fact, healing myself naturally when the doctor wanted to mutilate me with surgery. I didnt give up and I certainly am forging my own path in life.

I observe, listen and interact with others here. Their experiences are valuable, but and this is a big BUT, just because others have "tried everything under the sun" without any relief, does not mean that a person should not try things for themselves if it feels right to do so.

And for those who can afford it, you can get the Organic Acid test and CDSA through Direct Labs and other Labs online. If you cannot find a good doctor, there are always options.....

[AliB]

Thanks for that Rachel, I will have a good peruse of the info.

I agree with Shay. Similarly, the problem over here is that yes, there may well be practitioners out there who, to a certain extent (no-one has all the knowledge and answers except God!) know what they are doing, but finding them is the problem. Whilst we have the NHS as a 'free' service, we have no other choice, and what is available is very limited - if it's not drug or surgery-related then you've had it! If we want anything not connected or dealt with through the NHS we have to pay for it, and handsomely. I wondered if I might be able to get digestive enzymes on the NHS. My doctor gave me their reference book to scan through as she couldn't see anything, and neither could I - you'd think something as basic as enzymes would be available, wouldn't you?

Finding someone good is like a needle in a haystack. You are very fortunate to have found yours.

I know what you are saying about trying different things, but even the Practitioners started somewhere and got their own knowledge and information from somewhere. It's all out there - it is a matter of locating the right resources. I just wonder how much money is wasted on getting the wrong treatment from the wrong people. Frustrated by the lack of support from the NHS, my parents spent thousands on alternative healthcare and no-one ever picked up Mum's Celiac and Dad's gluten intolerance.

I just don't have the resources to throw at this - I have no choice but to just keep plugging away until I get to the bottom of it all. I'm not alone. There are thousands out there like me and we are all floundering around in the dark.

[Rachel--24]

It is so great that you have found really good doctors to work with. You are EXTREMELY blessed my dear.

Not everyone here has that luxury. Some of us are on HMO's. Some are on disability. Some just do not have access to good doctors in their area. Some are so absolutely disgusted with doctors that they cannot physically/emotionally go see yet another one.

Shay,

Its not like I dont understand any of this. If I hadnt been there myself....and if I hadnt gone through all of that myself....I'm sure I wouldnt be here today hoping to help others who are in the same situation.

I was on an HMO....but after 3 years with no answers and doctor after doctor treating me like crap...I chose to leave that HMO. The disappointment, frusteration and anger was actually worsening my condition.

When I joined this board I was on disability....I had BEEN on disability for 2 years....and I had many worries about my health, my finances, my job, my life, etc. I had severe depression, I was reacting to everything around me, I was down to 94 lbs., I was in alot of pain, I couldnt eat ANYTHING without reacting, I couldnt think clearly and nobody could help me to understand what was happening. I was not functioning during those first couple years ....I could barely read one sentence and make any sense of it.

It was no walk in the park for me.

In my early posts I had ALOT of anger and hatred toward the medical community.....I'm sure there are some here who can remember it well. I was very bitter towards the doctors and I vented my frusterations here numerous times.

Do I feel blessed to have found some really good doctors?? You bet I do....I'm very fortunate. However, since the day I got sick.....none of it has come easy. I worked hard for it. I had to make tough decisions.....and in the beginning I did not have the support that I have now.

Yeah...I was disgusted with doctors...I was emotionally and physically beat down. It was to the point that I was so weak and so "not there"...that the doctors were suggesting that my mom bring me to a mental hospital. This was because they were all under the impression that my illness was totally "in my head". The only person who *didn't* think it was in my head was the psychiatrist they sent me to. Amazingly, she was the *only* Dr. who felt that there was something PHYSICAL going on which was still undiagnosed. She told me on that first visit that no antidepressant was gonna fix whatever is broken.

So yes.....I've been through it all....which is why I can relate to others who are struggling in the same ways that I did.

Everyone can make their own decisions. I made mine....and you can make yours.

I'm very open to everything...I always have been. Whatever works...I dont care what I have to do....if it works I'm all for it.

I'm only sharing what I've learned through my own experiences and through my own observations over the past few years. Everyone chooses their own path.

There are many people here who do not have the same feelings that you are expressing. There are many people who would like to have the proper tests run...people who would love to see a doctor who is knowledgeable....only they just dont know where to look. I know I would have been very happy to have this info. 3 years ago......because at that time I had no idea who to go to for help.

For those people who are interested....I'm happy to share it.

I got past the anger I felt toward the other doctors. I moved forward. I couldnt hold onto that forever... and I think it was important for me to let it all out when I needed to. My health is most important to me...and those negative feelings werent helping me to get well. I'm happy that I didnt give up on doctors completely....and I know that there are many people here who feel the same.

Everyone is different....and not everyone will choose the same path for recovery. However, dont think for one second that just because I have good doctors now....I havent also sufferred just as much as so many others here. It wasnt easy getting to this point....it didnt all come to me in a nice package with a pretty bow on top.

I share my experiences in the hopes that one person benefits from each post. Thats my reason for posting on this board. It took me much longer than necessary to get the help I needed...and this was only because the info. wasnt available to me. If I had known about these doctors...I would have went to them from the start.

Somebody else might be in a similar situation...and they might WANT to go to a doctor who can help them.

If I had seen better outcomes from self-treating.....I wouldn't be here suggesting otherwise. I saw people struggling and I saw alot of people get worse. I never saw anyone "cure" themselves. That was my experience.

I'm not saying it cant happen.....anything is possible. I just never saw it....and I interacted with hundreds of people who were sick....just like me. A HUGE amount of those people have chronic infections and other issues which are not easily treated. Even with the help of a good Dr. it can be very difficult. I think that is the main reason I never saw anyone recover....they simply had no idea what was making them sick. Many of them were doing things which ultimately made their situation worse.

Like I said....we are all free to make our own choices. However, some people may be unaware that self-treating also has its risks.

Also, yes....there are many tests that can be ordered online. There are many labs offering all types of testing. However, some labs are very reputable....and others are not. It is always important to choose a high quality lab....afterall....why spend the money if you cant trust the results??

If I wanted to know whether or not I have Lyme Disease....I'm going to choose a high quality lab with a high sensitivity over the standard lab that is known for missing most positive cases of Lyme.

I feel the same about any testing I have done. I want the most reliable results available.....and I choose the labs that have the best reputation for accuracy.

Again, just sharing my experience. Some might be under the impression that all labs are equal....however, this is not the case.

[ShayFL]

Just keepin it real for those that might feel deflated thinking......if I only had the "right" doctors....and got the "right" tests....from the "right" labs....I could get well.

You do not need all of the "right" things that are "right" for someone else to heal. Everyone should be encouraged to HOPE that what they are trying could work for them.

There are threads where people just want to know if something worked for others or not. That is a great place to say. No that didnt help me. Or yes that helped.

Saying.....you can do ALL this, but NONE of it will work until you get the "right""right""right" whatever......Doesnt help everyone. And in fact, depresses some people.

Humans are impatient by nature. We want to get well yesterday. But for a lot of people going gluten-free might be the answer, but it can take time to recover. Hunting down the "right" doctors....spending crap loads of money on the "right" tests....with the "right" labs....could be an exercise in futility (not to mention expense).

So if someone wants to try making their own yogurt, taking probiotics, colonics, etc. (things that are not exhaustive and expensive). Why shouldnt they?

I have neuro symptoms and gluten sensitivity genes that have been related to neuro symptoms. I have been told by numerous people, books, etc. that it can take me up to a year or 2 to heal. There is no need for me to continue to punish myself.......

I am gluten-free for 3 months and going to do supportive things for my body and give it time to heal. And that will include making my own yogurt (which I miss because I am not eating dairy). Already seeing improvements.....

Offering another point of view. It is my nature.

[missjill]

I have realised that a sluggish liver is behind a lot of my ongoing health issues.

I know it has been sluggish for years and I kinda ignored it - as you do. The poor old liver doesn't get much press unfortunately - not nearly as much as it should and is largely ignored.

The trouble is that a sluggish liver does not show up on normal medical tests. As long as it is working, as far as Docs are concerned, you are ok. The tests don't measure how well it is working, or whether it is congested or fatty.

Our diet controls how efficient our livers are. It is a huge powerhouse of the body that is continuously filtering the blood and pumping out enzymes and other factors to regulate our bodies' functions. If it starts to labor under stress then we start to get sick. The harder it has to work, the more congested it becomes, the sicker we get.

I thought about doing a few liver flushes but decided they were a bit too harsh so have opted for the slower and more gentle route of taking milk thistle. I took it for a few weeks before going gluten-free then about 10 days after starting the diet my liver had a clear-out - I could actually feel stuff going down the tubes! Weird! The liver was a bit sore for a few days but soon recovered.

At the moment I am getting a bit of upper backache when I eat which I suspect is the liver, my back has become very itchy - itchy skin is a sure sign of a liver problem, and my digestion still isn't quite right so I have gone back to the milk thistle again. I'm throwing lots of supplements at myself and taking some homeopathic Candida tablets too. I'm still getting the heart-pounding/throbbing thing but it does seem a little better.

I'm sure if I can get my liver cleared out I will start to feel a lot better. About 20 years ago I went to a lady who was a herbalist and acupuncturist and she was giving me acupuncture to stimulate my liver and spleen back then. I did feel great for a while. Shame I couldn't afford to keep it going!

[missjill]

All the information is interesting. I too have suffered from from bloating and gaining weight. Feeling sick when I eat. Someone turned me on to a book called "Blood Type diet". You eat according to your blood type. I got my book from Borders. I have stayed away from wheat, gluten and dairies. It gives you list of food to eat that is benifcial to your body and foods that are poisen to your body. It has helped tremedniously. I have felt great and losing wieght. I dropped 16 pounds in two weeks just by eating right. I dont go to resturants yet. Im still trying to get my meals more interesting but I dont bloat and not gasy any more. From time to time I have alittle pain in my side but nothing like I did. It is written by Dr. Peter J. D'Adamo. He has a site you can look at too that is very very helpful. www.4yourtype.com

Let me know what you think. I can only speak from experiance that is works.............

[ShayFL]

Awesome Jill that the blood type diet worked for you!! We are all so very unique.

I tried the blood type diet with limited success. It did cut the bloating and gas down. I am A+ and learned that I clearly do better with a lot more meat in my diet than D'Adamo suggests. But you are not the only one that I have heard of it really helping A LOT.

This is an example of something inexpensive that might be worth trying and that can give some people HOPE. It works for some.....so why not?

[Rachel--24]

Shay,

As far as diet changes go.....I would recommend it to anyone. Thats the reason I'm no longer on disability. Determining which foods were causing significant problems for me is the single most important thing I've done to improve my situation. Thats the reason I'm able to work full time, or go out and enjoy myself when I get the chance, or sit here and have enough focus to type out lengthy posts.

I have nothing negative to say about making dietary chages in order to relieve symptoms...whatever they may be. We all wanna feel better....this is what I did to feel better....and it worked.

I dont see a diet change as a high risk type of "self-treatment".....eating healthy is always a good thing.

Other things such as liver flushes can and DO harm some people. Even supplements, antifungals or other totally natural substances can be harmful if a person doesnt know what they are treating exactly. I have seen it happen many times....even with herbal treatments.

Also, if a person assumes they have a yeast problem and goes about "self treating" with this antifungal or that antifungal....they CAN worsen their situation if in fact they had a bacterial overgrowth rather than a yeast problem. The same is true for using antibacterials when yeast is the real issue.

So alot of times people do get worse....sometimes alot worse.

I did great with just diet changes.....honestly the improvement was PROFOUND. It was amazing how many of my symptoms disappeared in a matter of days.

I am not trying to take anyones hope away....I'm being realistic. Alot of people who read these boards are feeling pretty bad already. I dont want people to get worse trying various treatments....because I've been down that road myself...and it usually doesnt work.

You might be perfectly fine with waiting 2 years or more to see how far the gluten free diet takes you...thats your perogative. The next person who reads this thread may not want to do that. They may want to have some tests run now....because as you stated....as human beings we are impatient...and some of us want to be better yesterday.

Alot of people here have already made that decision....and I can tell you that every one of them (that I am aware of) has gotten some answers and are moving forward with treatment.

Honestly, I dont think that any of them would agree that "hunting" down the doctor and spending the money for testing was an exercise in futility. I think they would tell you that having an answer was the biggest blessing and an answer to their prayers.

You wouldnt think that people would celebrate when they find out they have some type of infection...or some other issue....and yet no matter how complicated the diagnsosis may be....I have seen lots of people celebrate having an answer.

I'm not trying to change your mind about any of this. However, I'm not going to stop posting what I've learned through my experiences...because some people do benefit from it. Some people are in a hurry to get their lives back....if taking some tests can put them on that path...then I dont see anything wrong with it.

I wasted more money on self-treatments than anything else. As far as lab tests go...I havent considered any of it a waste. My health is worth it. The most expensive test I've ever taken was Enterolab.....$350....none of it covered by insurance. It was also the least helpful for me....although I did find the gene test to be useful....and that one I'd do over again.

As far as seeing the "right" doctors. Well...if someone is very unhappy with every doctor they've seen....and they still dont have an answer after numerous tests....then yes.....they probably arent seeing the "right" doctor. Nobody *has* to go out of their way to find someone else....nobody *has* to pursue more tests....nobody has to do any of it....but some people WANT to.

Actually ALOT of people want to.....because alot of people are tired of feeling sick.

Some people here want encouragement, some want answers, some want guidance, some want to hear about the experiences of others. We all have our own reasons for being here.

You will not see me encouraging someone to try liver flushes, you will not ever see me giving someone advice on what to take for treating this infection or that infection....you will not see me doing those things...even if I have some knowledge on the subject. You wont see me encouraging someone to detox heavy metals without the help of an experienced doctor...I've seen too many people get hurt by experiementing on themselves.

As far as diet changes....I'll say "Go For It"....see where it takes you....theres no harm in eating healthy.