Still Drinking Regular Beer - No Problems

[jerseyangel]

Wow Larry Mac

I don't think I could bring myself to drink regular beer....even light. How did it feel?

Hope you don't get too sick

[larry mac]

Good morning people,

I'm happy to say I didn't get sick last night. I got a little woozy (but I had already drank a margarita, which is definately gluten-free, though it contains 3X the alcohol of a beer, at least mine do ), got real sleepy, went to bed, slept all night, and woke up somewhat hungover. I don't usually feel that way after drinking tequila or bourbon. But, I didn't have any glutening symptoms, and believe me when I say that unfortunately I have intimate knowledge of glutening symptoms.

I am absolutely shocked! I would have bet anything that a regular beer, even if it is light, would make me deathly ill. Don't think I'd do it again, but it's nice to know I could. I still feel it is a violation of the gluten-free diet. But hell, if I thought I could get away with eating a nice, big, juicy, double cheesburger from my favorite old burger joint, I'd do it in a minute .

I've done my duty in the interest of Celiac science research.

best regards, lm

[gfp]

Good morning people,

I'm happy to say I didn't get sick last night. I got a little woozy (but I had already drank a margarita, which is definately gluten-free, though it contains 3X the alcohol of a beer, at least mine do ), got real sleepy, went to bed, slept all night, and woke up somewhat hungover. I don't usually feel that way after drinking tequila or bourbon. But, I didn't have any glutening symptoms, and believe me when I say that unfortunately I have intimate knowledge of glutening symptoms.

I am absolutely shocked! I would have bet anything that a regular beer, even if it is light, would make me deathly ill. Don't think I'd do it again, but it's nice to know I could. I still feel it is a violation of the gluten-free diet. But hell, if I thought I could get away with eating a nice, big, juicy, double cheesburger from my favorite old burger joint, I'd do it in a minute .

I've done my duty in the interest of Celiac science research.

best regards, lm

Well, it would be interesting to find out....

My personal thoughts are a mix of self experience, others here etc.

One thing I found was that I get neuro symptoms way before gastro when I have trace amounts...

Truth be told, I find the neuro symptoms far worse than the gastro so gar as my happyness is concerned.

One thing I have done when glutened is as we say in England "Might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb" .. in other words if I get glutened (you know finding that crouton hidden i the salad) I tend to think what the heck.. give me a beer!

I have noticed the woozyness is far more pronounced.... as are 'hangovers' in the out of it stakes (not particularly headaches but just feeling out of it...

I drink a fair amount ... on occasions a couple of bottles of wine or 8 pints of 6% cider.... but 3-4 pints of regular beer and I feel 'out of it' the next day....

I'd be interested in your observations.....

However as a general warning, I also found that there is a huge difference to my general health and overall mental wellbeing that gets progressively worse on trace amounts..

Its more of a build-up type feeling than the "oh heck ... where's the nearest loo" ... and so consuming a little regularly might IMHO be worse than having a pizza and beer day once a year.... A little all the time and the body is never recovered....

Just my 2c though....

[larry mac]

I'm not feeling very well this morning. Nothing serious, a little d, a little stomach problem, a little headache, tired, dragging. Happens occasionally, so no absolute cause and effect from the beer. Most likely though, it contributed.

best regards, lm

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I think this is all fascinating, and am very grateful that MJ started this topic. I thinkit is definite "food for research!"

I have often wondered why a colleague of mine who was diagnosed as celiac as a baby, and who is otherwise very strict with her diet, insists that she does not react to soy sauce and Rice Krispies--and her following testing seemed to have proved this. Before I was diagnosed, I had noticed that when in Japan for work (twice, for several weeks), I was PERFECTLY healthy--even though I was consuming soy sauce at every meal (though no other wheat products)--no tummy aches, no reflux, no rashes, no bloating, no mushy poops. I also lost 10 pounds of blubber each time, even though I was eating just as much as usual, and eating tons of rice, to the consternation of my Atkins-dieting colleagues.

Yes, I know soy sauce does not contain barley, it contains wheat, and the discussion is about barley, so please, don't jump on me with posts about soy sauce not containing barley! (And yes, I use San-J wheat-free soy sauce.)

What I'm wondering is, could it have something to do with the fermentation process? Barley malt is fermented, right? And so is the wheat in soy sauce.

Is it possible that there is a subset of celiacs who are undamaged by these fermented grains? Perhaps it's the subset of celiacs who have suffered the least damage before being diagnosed. And perhaps the fermentation process does yield an extremely low final level of gluten.

Obviously, much more research needs to be done for us to find out--but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it, as the pharmaceutical industry funds most studies. They're not going to fund anything that doesn't have the potential to make them future $$$.

I must say, I have very mixed thoughts about what MJ is doing. On the one hand, I wouldn't think it worth the risk since there ARE gluten-free beers available. (Then again, I'mnot a beer-drinker, so I honestly can't say I've been there!)

On the other hand, I don't think he is kidding himself. I trust his own intelligence and awareness of his body AND the fact that he has bothered to have repeat testing done.

I think it is totally possible that he might be on to something, but even if he isn't, I do thank him for bringing it up, as I don't think it is a black-and-white issue--and therefore, it merits discussion. Just because many people see it as a black-and-white issue doesn't mean that it IS. I also want to thank everyone who has posted their opinions--that is what this board is for!

[gfp]

I think this is all fascinating, and am very grateful that MJ started this topic. I thinkit is definite "food for research!"

I have often wondered why a colleague of mine who was diagnosed as celiac as a baby, and who is otherwise very strict with her diet, insists that she does not react to soy sauce and Rice Krispies--and her following testing seemed to have proved this. Before I was diagnosed, I had noticed that when in Japan for work (twice, for several weeks), I was PERFECTLY healthy--even though I was consuming soy sauce at every meal (though no other wheat products)--no tummy aches, no reflux, no rashes, no bloating, no mushy poops. I also lost 10 pounds of blubber each time, even though I was eating just as much as usual, and eating tons of rice, to the consternation of my Atkins-dieting colleagues.

Yes, I know soy sauce does not contain barley, it contains wheat, and the discussion is about barley, so please, don't jump on me with posts about soy sauce not containing barley! (And yes, I use San-J wheat-free soy sauce.)

What I'm wondering is, could it have something to do with the fermentation process? Barley malt is fermented, right? And so is the wheat in soy sauce.

Is it possible that there is a subset of celiacs who are undamaged by these fermented grains? Perhaps it's the subset of celiacs who have suffered the least damage before being diagnosed. And perhaps the fermentation process does yield an extremely low final level of gluten.

Obviously, much more research needs to be done for us to find out--but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it, as the pharmaceutical industry funds most studies. They're not going to fund anything that doesn't have the potential to make them future $$$.

I must say, I have very mixed thoughts about what MJ is doing. On the one hand, I wouldn't think it worth the risk since there ARE gluten-free beers available. (Then again, I'mnot a beer-drinker, so I honestly can't say I've been there!)

On the other hand, I don't think he is kidding himself. I trust his own intelligence and awareness of his body AND the fact that he has bothered to have repeat testing done.

I think it is totally possible that he might be on to something, but even if he isn't, I do thank him for bringing it up, as I don't think it is a black-and-white issue--and therefore, it merits discussion. Just because many people see it as a black-and-white issue doesn't mean that it IS. I also want to thank everyone who has posted their opinions--that is what this board is for!

At one point I thought I knew quite a bit about Soy Sauce....

Then I fond out how much I didn't know....

If you have a few spare hourse Wikipedia Soy Sauce....

Some have barley and others (mainly non trad have wheat)....

but .. back to the topic

Obviously fermentation does something.... but what?

Also the Soy fermentation is quite different to the Beer fermentation ...

It seems pretty accepted (outside evangelising vegans) that Soy is bad... but fermented soy is OK in small amounts (including Tofu)...

We might consider, is the 'real deal' in Japan different to all but very high end US/European Soy Sauce?

I think some uses specifically germinated barley (we could look into this)...

The actual fermentation is important.... any fermentation is primarily based on the type of yeast and the raw product but speed, temp etc. play a large part.. (as any home brewer will tell you)...

I seem to remember Soy is fermented VERY slowly... (esp the real deal)...

I must say, I have very mixed thoughts about what MJ is doing. On the one hand, I wouldn't think it worth the risk since there ARE gluten-free beers available. (Then again, I'mnot a beer-drinker, so I honestly can't say I've been there!)

On the other hand, I don't think he is kidding himself. I trust his own intelligence and awareness of his body AND the fact that he has bothered to have repeat testing done.

well I didn't see the test results....

There are a LOT of unknowns but the basic unknown is what tests did he get ...

The biopsy is rather pointless as it could just as easily have missed the area... and the amounts are low...

However, for me the biggest unknown is .... What are the long term effects of small amounts of gluten.

Every real clinical trail I have seen has always said "low (CODEX) amounts show no more damage than a gluten-free diet..." but this is meaningless as it means some damage is found.

One has to presume that damage is damage and less damage means the body can keep up the repair process?

However this is a bit like the undiagnosed condition ... pre-event (be it pregnancy, illness or getting older)

Whereby we may be better we are still causing thyroid fatigue and provoking mytosis and increasing cancer risk,

[Fiddle-Faddle]

One has to presume that damage is damage and less damage means the body can keep up the repair process?

However this is a bit like the undiagnosed condition ... pre-event (be it pregnancy, illness or getting older)

Whereby we may be better we are still causing thyroid fatigue and provoking mytosis and increasing cancer risk,

Good point.

Still, my gut (sorry, didn't intend the bad pun ) says that he's on to something--but I think the potential is probably only for a subset of celiacs/gluten intolerants, not for all, and especially not for those who suffered the typical (of USA) 11 years of severe damage before having been diagnosed.

[gfp]

Good point.

Still, my gut (sorry, didn't intend the bad pun ) says that he's on to something--but I think the potential is probably only for a subset of celiacs/gluten intolerants, not for all, and especially not for those who suffered the typical (of USA) 11 years of severe damage before having been diagnosed.

This boils down to what is celiac disease vs gluten intolerance vs pre-severe vs ....

My theory (which I believe due to its simplicity,personal experience and experience of others here)

We all start off with an intolerance, for many we then repair the damage as fast as its done.

We get ill, pregnant or just plain older and our bodies repairs slow down.

We damage the villi faster than we can repair them...

Things go downhill rapidly, we can't adsorb nutrients, our ability to repair is itself impaired ...

Now to me drinking a few bud-lights or regular small doses are just stressing the system...

Perhaps we can repair that damage but the process of repair and fighting it is itself harmful. Just because the villi look OK (well not perfect but OK) means, to me that they are coping with the problem BUT that this is casing other damage.

You can run your finger against a brick wall and get no damage... once a year you might graze it badly but it repairs...

BUT

Run your finger gently against that brick wall all day... keep going and it will be a mess... sloughing off a few cells is fine so long as its not continuous.

The breakpoint of damage faster than repair needs to be avoided... if someone is 'lucky' enough not to have past it then good but if they continue sooner or later they will pass it then the downward spiral sets in quickly...

[Mtndog]

Josh, some do like civil, educated conversations.

Stick around.

Agreed! Yes- conflicting information is very tough for newbies to sift through- but I think most of us have brains and are capable of critical thinking. Yes- we are not always rational but well, .......

Larry- you are crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am amazed that you did your own experiment- the thought of beer (even gluten-free) is no longer appealing to me and I used to be a micro-brew snob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope you feel better.

[Calicoe]

This is a great suggestion! You may be surprised, Josh (in a good way) at how you feel at the end of those three months, and how you feel after you drink that first light beer once being completely gluten-free for that time. You could drink Redbridge in the interim, the gluten-free beer that DH says is quite passable......

In my humble, risk-loving opinon, New Grist is better. And it has won brewing awards.

I am pleased to say that over here in the U.K. a couple of breweries now produce gluten-free beers. The come in bottles only and can be purchased by mail order.

One of the breweries now does three different types of beer.

I'm not Coeliac myself but my wife is. I have tried a couple of these beers and they are quite good. So, there is hope for all.

Do you mind naming a few.

OK, so maybe I was a little rash in my response to MTNJ. I wasn't aware that light beer is gluten-free. Could someone please cite any study, test results, or link that even suggests light beer made from barely has negligeable gluten. I'm sorry, I thought we were supposed to avoid gluten containing products. Now I learn we try gluten foods that we think are too low to cause harm on an experimental basis and if we don't get sick then it's OK to keep ingesting it.

To prove my remorse, I'm drinking a Miller Lite as I type. I always keep real beer for our guests. They usually like light beer. I've never drank it, preferring regular beer. But, since I can't stand Redbridge, and I've been bad on the forum lately (yes, I know I'm a dick), I'm volunteering to be a human Celiac guinee pig (sp), and for the first time in 20 months am consuming gluten (albeit hopefully minute amounts) on purpose. I will of course report back later and if I get deathly ill I will be cursing all of you (not on the forum of course, as I'm already up to 33% warning thanks to the forum police having no sense of humor).

To Ken70, Mountaineer Josh, and Calicoe, sorry I ruined your black panther party (that's a Forest Gump joke ).

Hey, I said best regards!

lm

Dude, I admire your bravery, but don't do it for us. I am responsible for my own health, my own screw-ups, my own brain fog, and my own drinks.

I do appreciate everyone on this board, and all of the advice and information I have received during my short time here. If it wasn't for you guys, I would be fairly lost because you certainly can't get reliable advice from the allopathic medical profession, and I can't afford alternatives right now. So, you guys have been it. I very much appreciate you.

However, I totally appreciate Josh as well, for continuing to ask questions. I always do the same. I don't think anyone put forward a statement that regular lite beer is safe for Celiacs. Rather, we were merely trading experiences amongst those with celiac disease and GI. If we can't have that kind of discussion here, where can we have it? I feel like my body has been the best barometer of what I can and can't tolerate. But, I also know that Tim in VA and gfp are right about a collection of symptoms other than gastro, especially neurological symptoms, because that has been my experience. So, thank you for the reminder. It takes a while to completely adapt your lifestyle to such a pervasive dietary requirement. Just because we aren't perfect yet doesn't mean we aren't trying.

Hey Josh, I see you are in VA. I am in DC. We will have to meet up sometime for a gluten-free meal and a couple of New Grists - they're good! I think that the Belgian Bavik Beer may also qualify as a light beer, which may be why I can drink it with no problems. However, once I formally start my Candida diet, I won't be able to drink or eat anything.

I'm going to start once I finish off the remaining 3 Baviks in my fridge.

[Calicoe]

Good morning people,

I'm happy to say I didn't get sick last night. I got a little woozy (but I had already drank a margarita, which is definately gluten-free, though it contains 3X the alcohol of a beer, at least mine do ), got real sleepy, went to bed, slept all night, and woke up somewhat hungover.

I've done my duty in the interest of Celiac science research.

best regards, lm

LM, one thing I never do is mix spirits with beer. I could never do it unscathed, nor could I drink unscathed before I learned how (realized vodka didn't harm me, before I even figured out this possible celiac disease/GI stuff). Now I am trying to figure out the beer. But, I could never mix them, and now I know why. I will have to try a night of just potato vodka and gluten-free beer to see if the mixing rule still stands.

We should have a gluten-free party night.

[rumbles]

*** I do NOT suggest that anyone try this, - especially if you have not been on a strict

gluten free diet for at least a couple of years. This posting is strictly about one dumb blonde

that had a lapse of judgement, and experimented with something that very well could cause

serious damage!****

That being said, Josh and Larry Mac, add me to the list. I had one of those dang-I-gotta-find-out

moments yesterday, threw caution and my medical situation to the wind, and drank a Bud Light

and-a-half. Not a single gluten-related reaction that I could tell.

Like my brother, I was initially diagnosed with Sprue over 45 years ago, From toddler through

grammer school, I was fed wheat products (gotta love that Wonder bread!) every four to five

days to try to "cure" me. Before I made it to junior high school, I was pronounced cured. Noone

ever explained to me what the disease was, except that like all kids, I grew out of it. Once

"cured," it was never mentioned again.

By the time I graduated high school, I was convinced that I must be a genetic defect. So many

medical things were going wrong, but they were in different parts of the body, and noone ever

put it together that they could be related. It wasn't until decades later, after years on permanent

disability for lupus and fibromyalgia, did I find out that I had Celiac disease, - and even then, it

took a couple of years to understand that it was another name for the same disease that I was

diagnosed with four decades earlier.

I don't fit in the category of someone that was diagnosed before experiencing severe damage,

as I didn't actually have lupus or fibromyalgia, and have quite a few scars where doctors honed

their carving skills, which turned out to be related to the celiac disease. I'm lucky enough to have both

"types" - Celiac and DH. I'm extremely sensitive to gluten, to the point where I can't drink wine

or eat foods that have been made in the same facility as gluten without breaking out in blisters,

along with a host of other symptoms.

It's been over 24 hours, and I have experienced absolutely no itching, blistering, or any of the

other lovely symptoms that I normally get from cross contamination, no less true glutening.

My own two cents thinks that it definitely has something to do with the fermentation of sprouted

barley. Maybe that causes either a lesser reaction, or a different reaction, or . . . .

Maybe if enough of us contact them, maybe we can convince Anheuser-Busch to get Bud Light

gluten tested. We might be successful at that, since it could potentially increase their future

sales. What-do-ya-think?

Once again, - please do not try this, - we know that this product is made from a gluten

source, so there is a very strong possibility that experimenting with this could cause

damage that isn't readily visible/noticeable.

[WW340]

Wow, I am impressed by some of you adventurous souls. Larry Mac, you could have done other things for penance. You really did not have to risk your gut for us, lol. I am really shocked that you would be one to try this.

I, too, will try this in the future. I will stick to the listed suggestions, ie, corona light or bud light. Larry Mac will have to give us more info on his Miller lite experiment. I hope you are OK Larry.

I like your disclaimer, JerseyGirl. Maybe we should have one at the beginning of the thread that says: Do not try this at home. These are professional celiacs performing these stunts and newbies should skip this thread.

Seriously, I do think it requires a long time of gluten free with certain healing, and some experience with your own symptoms, before ever trying an experiment like this.

I wonder how my insurance company would feel about before and after labs. Some how, I don't think they would understand the need to know if i could drink some mainstream beer.

I would like to get something figured out by football season. I live in a very remote area, with no access to gluten free beer. I have picked some up while traveling, and I have asked my local liquor store to order it, but so far, no luck.

Josh, I hope you are still following this thread. It has certainly taken a friendlier tone.

[Calicoe]

*** I do NOT suggest that anyone try this, - especially if you have not been on a strict

gluten free diet for at least a couple of years. This posting is strictly about one dumb blonde

that had a lapse of judgement, and experimented with something that very well could cause

serious damage!****

That being said, Josh and Larry Mac, add me to the list.

Hey, what about me! I'm out there on the frontier as well. I just don't know whose banner I'm wearing yet.

One Bavik down, two to go.

[Calicoe]

"I'm extremely sensitive to gluten, to the point where I can't drink wine

or eat foods that have been made in the same facility as gluten without breaking out in blisters,

along with a host of other symptoms.

It's been over 24 hours, and I have experienced absolutely no itching, blistering, or any of the

other lovely symptoms that I normally get from cross contamination, no less true glutening.

My own two cents thinks that it definitely has something to do with the fermentation of sprouted

barley. Maybe that causes either a lesser reaction, or a different reaction, or . . . . "

I want to add that you were extremely brave, JerseyGirl. Please don't try this at home, people. But, I think we have formed a reliable hypothesis based on giving our bodies up for science. I'm definitely no expert on beer or celiac disease, but my "gut" reaction (ha ha, pun intended) is that it has something to do with the fermentation process of pilsners and lite beers as well. Any experts on lager/pils and celiac disease/GI to further enlighten us?

*building on the earlier points about fermentation and barley, I have also found that I can drink Guinness, which is roasted barley. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't know where this leads or its implications, but everything else makes me sick as a dog. Why is it that I can't drink one can or pint of other beers, but can drink some pilsners/lagers and Guinness with no problems? Has anyone else found that they can drink Guinness? If I had the lab and the testing credentials, I would love to take this on. I think the possibilities MAY go beyond Bud Light.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Is the barley malt in Rice Krispies and Corn Flakes fermented in the same way?

My understanding is that in the UK, these are considered "gluten free."

Way back before I knew anything about gluten, I had read about gluten and casein affecting autistic children, and took my oldest son off gluten--or so I'd thought. But I didn't yet know about soy sauce and barley malt, so he did eat those things--and still had a spectacular behavioral response to the diet. But months later--still knowing nothing, because at the time, we didn't have internet access--I very gradually added gluten and casein back into his diet, with no visible symptoms occurring.

He is now gluten-free again, since I was diagnosed, but not casein-free, and we have been avoiding every possible gluten source and plan to continue to do so, so I'm only asking out of intellectual curiosity!

[Calicoe]

Interesting question. I know that I personally have reactions to soy sauce and wheat products. I have all the unmistakable symptoms down to the last, including the good 'ole trusty lip blister. I also have autoimmune reactions to dairy. I am also in the process of testing different cheeses. Some affect me worse than others.

Again, many issues point toward celiac disease/GI, but it could also be Candida. All I know is that I am allergic to almost everything, but miraculously can drink some beers and Guinness. I do get mild sneezing after Guinness.

[larry mac]

....I am really shocked that you would be one to try this....

Yeah, me too. I'ts very incongruous to my normal gluten-free behavior. What the heck happened Friday night? It wasn't even a full moon.

I've been fine all day today. Halleluya!

best regards, lm

[larry mac]

......That being said, Josh and Larry Mac, add me to the list. I had one of those dang-I-gotta-find-out

moments yesterday, threw caution and my medical situation to the wind, and drank a Bud Light

and-a-half. Not a single gluten-related reaction that I could tell......

Have we all gone crazy or what. Josh started some kind of mass hysteria.

best regards, lm

[modiddly16]

Just because one says "best regards" does not mean that you mean well in what you have said. I feel that this post has gotten slightly ridiculous and now instead of educating people or allowing people to share their experience, others are poking fun at those people who have attempted to drink light beer calling it a "research project" in the most sarcastic manner. It really does make people not want to post things on this site if they're going to be subject to ridicule and judgements.

[gfp]

Just because one says "best regards" does not mean that you mean well in what you have said. I feel that this post has gotten slightly ridiculous and now instead of educating people or allowing people to share their experience, others are poking fun at those people who have attempted to drink light beer calling it a "research project" in the most sarcastic manner. It really does make people not want to post things on this site if they're going to be subject to ridicule and judgements.

Those are people being sarcastic to long term friends....

Try and look at it like that.... many of us have long histories here and we have known the person we are having a friendly saractic comment with for years....

Unfortunately people then get upset on their behalf...

[Calicoe]

I am sure many comments are between long term friends and long term antagonists for that matter, but I agree with modiddly that some do appear to be judgmental. Back to the topic of the OP:

I found a link on types of barley malt and the brewing process. l am not versed on the process at all, but from my very pedestrian view point, we may be on to something about the varying reactions to different beers. Not all brews are made with the same amount of barley extract, use different proportions of other grains such as corn and rice, and are kilned at different temperatures which affect the enzymes present. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I think for myself the factor of enzymes may be significant, which may be why I can drink some light beers and pilsners, and Guinness with minimal effect. Obviously, the presence and proportion of the grain is significant in the first place, but if there is a smaller proportion combined with a high-temperature kiln, does this minimize the effect of some light beers and pilsners? Also, if the effect is to eliminate the enzymes, is that the decisive factor? It is a sincere question, because I really don't know.

Open Original Shared Link

There is no universal system used in classifying malts since maltsters categorize and market their products differently. However, most often malts are classified as base malts, specialty malts (light or dark), caramelized/crystal malts, roasted malts, unmalted barley (roasted barley and green malt), and other malted grains (wheat and rye).

(excerpt)

Base Malts

Base malts usually account for a large percent of the total grain bill, with darker-colored specialty malts accounting for 10 to 25% of the grain bill. The only exception is wheat malt, which can make up to 100% of the total grain bill in brewing wheat beers. Base malts and, to some extent, light-colored specialty malts provide most of the enzymatic (diastatic) power to convert starches into fermentable sugars. The base malts provide the highest extract potential. Dark-colored specialty malts, caramelized malts, roasted malts, unmalted barely, and other malted grains are added in smaller quantities to obtain darker colors and to enhance flavor characteristics. Depending on the style of beer brewed, the brewer may use only one or two types of barley malts, or as many as seven or eight. Other grains used in brewing include corn, rye, and oats.

Light Specialty Malts

Light-colored specialty malts are kilned at higher temperatures than base malts and impart a deeper color and a fuller malt flavor and aroma to the finished beer. Enzyme levels are lower than for base malts. Vienna and Munich malts are examples of specialty light-colored malts.

Unmalted Barley

Roasting unmalted barley at high temperatures makes roasted barley. Roasted barley is not black in appearance; it is rather a rich, dark brown. It has an assertive, roasted flavor, similar to roasted coffee beans, with a sharp, acrid after-palate, and is especially used in the making of dry stouts and porters. It contributes significantly to the color of the beer, enhances head production and stabilization, and whitens the head on the beer. There are no enzymes in roasted barley.

[Calicoe]

Also, if you follow the link within this link on one of the oldest Belgian Breweries (Rodenbach), they also used a larger proportion of rice and corn, to lighten the body of the lager in the style of lager and pilsners that became popular centuries ago. Lagers use a bottom fermentation process with lower temperatures, so the grain bill (more rice and corn, and components of the original mash) on some lagers like Bud Light may be what is significant, rather than the temperature of the kiln. Anyway, this is all speculation, but for me I am seeing a pattern of either a possible lower barley and higher grain bill/of rice and corn which has no enzymes or lessens overall enzymes, or a malt base and kiln process that results in no present enzymes.

Warning: Just thinking out loud. May be wrong.

Open Original Shared Link

Rice & Corn

In North America, rice and corn are often used by commercial breweries as a means of readily adding fermentable sugars to a beer cheaply, due to the ready availability and low price of the grains. However, corn is also the base grain in chicha and some caium, as well as Bourbon whiskey; while rice is the base grain of happoshu and various mostly Asian fermented beverages often referred to as "rice wines" such as sake and makkoli; corn is also used as an ingredient in some Belgian beers such as Rodenbach to lighten the body.

Corn was originally introduced into the brewing of American lagers because of the high protein content of the six-row barley; adding corn, which is high in sugar but low in protein, helped thin out the body of the resulting beer. Increased amounts of corn use over time led to the development of the American pale lager style. Corn is generally not malted, but instead introduced into the mash as flaked, dried kernels.

Brewers should notice that corn and rice don't contain any enzymes. It is therefore required that these adjuncts are used together with enzyme rich adjuncts, such as normal malts. Prior to a brew, rice and corn should be cooked for about an hour to allow the starch to gelatinize and thereby render it convertible.

[GFinDC]

I thot someone had already posted this link to an article on this site about barley. Anyway, here it is again. Seems the barley enzymes destroy some of the gluten proteins when the seeds germinate, but not all of it. Heating or roasting might do more to destroy the proteins I guess, but that would be something needing research or knowledgeable people to explain. The way I understand it, they germinate the barley and then stop the growth at a certain point to preserve the enzymes. The enzymes are then used to turn the starches into sugars in the other grains in the beer. It sounds like they stop the germination before all the proteins are converted though.

https://www.celiac.com/articles/187/1/Celia...ture/Page1.html

The following was written by Donald D. Kasarda

Quote"

Because barley malt is made from barley grain that has been germinated it is reasonably certain to be less toxic than barley itself. The hordein proteins and starch in the endosperm of barley grains, like the equivalent gluten proteins and starch in wheat, are there for storage purposes. In a sense, they provide food for the new plant upon germination. In order to use the hordein proteins, the grain releases and generates enzymes upon germination that break down the storage proteins into their constituent amino acids. The problem is that the process is not complete during a short germination, so some peptides (short pieces of the proteins) remain intact in malted barley. There is experimental evidence for this. The resulting mix of peptides is highly complex.

" End Quote

[Calicoe]

Yes, you are right on all counts, GFDC. I didn't see the article you referenced, so I will look for it. In my short time on this topic, it seems there are numerous junctures that may destroy enzymes in some brews more than others. One point as you mentioned is in the germination process. I am also trying to figure out other junctures in my links and discussion above, concerning the grain bill ratios and processing of the mash, whether it is malted or unmalted, and the kiln temperatures. Another procedure that differs in varying brews is decoction methods, and whether the extracts are disposed of or taken out, boiled and reintroduced, which would add to the body and strength of the beer, including the enzymes and proteins, I think. I have a feeling that the single decoction method in which the extracts are taken out favor celiac disease/GI. It would be great if we could find someone who is very knowledgeable on the scientific process of making beers and the resulting enzyme effect and celiac disease. Obviously not all brews are the same, and I am sure the devil is in the details, rather than all beer.

But, until we understand it better, it's best to stick with what is a sure thing, whether that is total avoidance or your true and tried brew. Thank goodness there are good gluten-free beers, but personally I want to learn the details in the hopes of trying to avoid a life of Bud Light. It may turn out that I only need to regulate intake of Guinness or some pilsners, rather than give them up completely.