Glutenease

[Rachel--24]

I have to say, I'm quite surprised that you're now taking the stance that GlutenEase not only relieves symptoms, but prevents intestinal damage in people with Celiac Disease.

I dont recall ever having said that in any of my posts....nor have I ever felt that this was the case. We dont know that it does or doesnt prevent intestinal damage.

I've only stated that people with Celiac take it for the purpose of reducing risk of CC....and they say that it helps them....its as simple as that.

I honestly dont know where you got the idea that I'm saying its a "cure" for Celiac.

If I felt that it prevented intestinal damage in people with Celiac...then I guess I'd be calling it a cure....which I most definately am not.

It cannot mask symptoms....it does not serve that purpose. I dont see how it can *possibly* mask symptoms. They are digestive enzymes....the only purpose they serve is to improve digestion.

I have to say that I'm quite surprised that you would even *think* that I'm "promoting" enzymes as a "cure" for Celiac.

I'm very disturbed that anyone would assume that the lack of symptoms would mean that no damage is being done.

I also never said this. I said we dont know for certain.

What I'm saying is that if a person who is highly sensitive and has terrible reactions to gluten (which leave them "disabled" for a few days each time) takes the enzymes and only notices a very small reaction (which does not leave them disabled at all)...its probably because the enzyme is helping to some extent.

Personally, I dont think that terrible symptoms are a good thing....and I dont think its good for the body to have that kind of stress. To me it seems like NOT having that type of reaction would be better for the body...and for the immune system.

Everyone can make their own decisions.....and honestly I could care less if people here take enzymes or not. I just dont think its right to attack people who do.

I mean really, there are people who come here and talk about how they cheat on a regular basis. Is it ok to bash them?? No...its not OK.

Its also not OK to bash people who are actually trying to keep themselves as healthy as possible by adding something like enzymes into their diet.

Sarah....I'm not saying that you specifically are bashing people...because I dont feel that you were. I also have no problems with your post...however, you did misunderstand everything I had written.

[Woolygimp]

Did Unclezack really call us flat earth bashers? Wow.

Look rachel, I don't think you're a shill but Unclezack is...

Why is not banned? Everything this guy has posted has been an advertisement for this company, his private website advocates using Glutenease for those celiacs who don't WISH to follow the lifelong diet (re: Tom's reply which points this out).

He's using these message boards as free marketing and creating quite the stir in the process. I'm not familiar with the ToS or code of conduct for this site but this can't be within the rules, and I think the mods here should take a hard line against his methods.

Look at his accounts creation date, look which threads he's choosing to post in, and look at how he talks, his argument. It's glaringly obvious, he's contributing nothing to this site except shovel loads of BS.

---

Comparing Enterolab to Enzymedica is a bit of an unfair comparison.

Enzymedica is a company is run by the dubious Tom Bohagen who has a history of selling fraudulent supplement products. This man has no medical background. He sells a product that claims to be able to make eating gluten 'safe'. Logic dictates that this guy is a pathological liar and will say anything in an attempt to sell you a product.

Enterolab is run by a Dr. Kenneth Fine. A medical professional who specializes in this specific field who has chosen not to publish his methods in a peer-reviewed journal.

[Rachel--24]

They take enzymes to reduce their risk for what, though? Symptoms or intestinal damage? I don't think I'm splitting hairs by asking that... It's a very important distinction.

If this enzyme did diminish or prevent intestinal damage... that WOULD be a treatment for Celiac Disease. The entire Celiac medical community would be all over it like flies on poop.

Nobody here is saying that its a cure....nobody is saying that it prevents intestinal damage.

I dont think that anyone KNOWS exactly how it helps someone with Celiac as far as cc goes. All I can tell you is that people who regularly experience symptoms from cc seem to have alot less of that going on once they start taking the enzymes.

Maybe its because its helping the digestive system overall?? Maybe its because its breaking down the gluten and moving it out before the immune system is responding?? There are alot of possibilities....we can all come up with different theories I'm sure.

You're asking me to answer a question that noone knows the answer to.

We are only talking about small exposures to gluten...from cross contamination.....not huge plates of pasta with garlic bread on the side. It does not work for that....because its not a cure. If it were a cure....then yes....people would be all over it.

I'm not so sure that the medical community would be all over it though....afterall....it doesnt require a prescription.

If it doesn't do that, than it does just mask symptoms, and is only a step above Immodium.

Immodium treats symptoms. If anyone can explain to me how digestive enzymes can "mask" symptoms....I'd be very interested to know.

[Rachel--24]

Look rachel, I don't think you're a shill but Unclezack is...

Why is not banned? Everything this guy has posted has been an advertisement for this company, his private website advocates using Glutenease for those celiacs who don't WISH to follow the lifelong diet (re: Tom's reply which points this out).

He very well may be here only with the intention of promoting this prouct.....its a strong possibility. People arent just immediately banned based on assumptions. I'm sure that if that does turn out to be the case....it will be addressed by Scott.

Also...I thought Tom's reply pointed out that UncleZack had recommended GlutenEase for people who REFUSE to follow the diet?? In my opinion..."People who REFUSE to follow the life-long diet" sounds much different from "People who do not WISH to follow the lifelong diet".

Yeah....I think I would say the same thing to someone who totally refuses to follow the diet. I mean, really.....they're putting themselves at great risk for all kinds of diseases. Even though the glutenease is not a cure....it might be better than nothing at all.

[Ridgewalker]

Rachel, I certainly never intended to put words in your mouth. If there's a misunderstanding, I apologize... I'm just not sure how else to take what you said. I read over it a half dozen times trying to figure out if I was reading it wrong. But when you said: (Boldface is mine, to show exactly what I was seeing.)

I think the *point* some people are trying to make is that it may be better to minimize your risk for damage by taking the enzymes....rather than to just take all the accidental glutenings as they come. Afterall symptoms are a result of damage....so less symptoms would indicate less damage.

The enzymes are ENZYMES....they are not pain pills...they are not going to "mask" symptoms. So yes...in my opinion less symptoms = less damage.

... I took it to mean, if GlutenEase relieves symptoms (and you, among others believe that it can, correct?) then it also diminishes intestinal damage. I'm not sure how else to read it. The rest of what you wrote in the last few posts seemed to be based on these statements.

I honestly dont know where you got the idea that I'm saying its a "cure" for Celiac.

If I felt that it prevented intestinal damage in people with Celiac...then I guess I'd be calling it a cure....which I most definately am not.

..........

I have to say that I'm quite surprised that you would even *think* that I'm "promoting" enzymes as a "cure" for Celiac.

I know you're not promoting it as a cure. I didn't mean to imply that you were. All I'm saying is that if it did prevent damage, then it would be considered an actual treatment- because as of now, the only confirmed way to prevent intestinal damage in Celiacs is the gluten-free diet.

It cannot mask symptoms....it does not serve that purpose. I dont see how it can *possibly* mask symptoms. They are digestive enzymes....the only purpose they serve is to improve digestion.

Do you and I mean the same thing when we say "mask symptoms?" When I say it may mask symptoms, I am saying that it (may) relieve symptoms, but does not do anything for the long-term issue of intestinal damage.

If it doesn't even relieve (mask?) symptoms, what's the relevance of it at all, other than general digestive health?

I'm very disturbed that anyone would assume that the lack of symptoms would mean that no damage is being done.

I also never said this. I said we dont know for certain.

I dunno Rachel, again- I would hate to put words in someone's mouth, it just seemed to be the inevitable conclusion of "less symptoms = less damage."

If I misunderstood, good, and I apologize. This topic is more than important enough to be worth clarifying these points.

[Rachel--24]

Comparing Enterolab to Enzymedica is a bit of an unfair comparison.

Enzymedica is a company is run by the dubious Tom Bohagen who has a history of selling fraudulent supplement products. This man has no medical background. He sells a product that claims to be able to make eating gluten 'safe'. Logic dictates that this guy is a pathological liar and will say anything in an attempt to sell you a product.

Enterolab is run by a Dr. Kenneth Fine. A medical professional who specializes in this specific field who has chosen not to publish his methods in a peer-reviewed journal.

I have personal experience with both...Enterolab as well as enzymes containing high amounts of DPPIV.

I have to say...I have more confidance in my enzymes than I do in Enterolab. But thats just me.

Also, I dont use Enzymedica.....I take a different brand. Its a different formula...but enzymes are enzymes. Enzymedica....as far as I know...is a pretty good brand...alot of people use their enzymes. They have a whole line of enzymes for different purposes...and they are quite popular.

I think alot of assumptions are being made by people who have no experience with the product.

If Dr. Fine were TRUELLY interested in bringing awareness....and if he were TRUELLY convinced in the validity of his testing method....then why would he choose to not publish??

If his tests were valid...doctors across the country might actually start using them...dontcha think thats good enough reason for a medical professional to WANT to publish for peer review??

[Unclezack]

My two cents...

Even if this product DOES work to relieve Celiac symptoms, it's still dangerous. It's NOT going to prevent intestinal damage. Therefore, all it's going to do is make it easier for people to "cheat." Isn't it hard enough to stick to this diet already? I consider myself fortunate, in a messed up way, that I have strong immediate reactions. Keeps me from damaging my body, just because I want a pizza. Yeah sure, it's everyone's right to hurt themselves. But I don't like that at all.

And btw... This Zack guy also plugged his own website (post #36,) which is against board rules. Sorry to point it out, but I've seen other people get warned for simply listing the address for their own recipe blog- and this guy's plugging a product. Fair is fair.

First of all, an apology to the entire board that I mentioned my website. I am currently trying to edit the post or have it removed. I am waiting for an answer how to do that since I had already edited it once. I am truly sorry, and the references to my website will be removed as soon as possible. I did not read the board rules, but have been to many boards that eventually become more spam than content. I understand the reason for the rule.

Secondly, I do not take enzymes so I can cheat. That is not the intent of most people who take them nor does the manufacturer make these claims. I take them on the rare occasions of eating (supposedly) safe foods in a restaurant, or if we have guests in our home who don't seem to understand that they can't dip the knife back into the jar of mayonnaise or the butter dish. I am so intolerant that a toast crumb in the butter dish could set me off for three days.

I disagree that the product doesn't prevent intestinal damage. The offending molecule is broken down by the enzymes "before" it causes damage. Hey, we're all different. It works for me.

[Ridgewalker]

I disagree that the product doesn't prevent intestinal damage. The offending molecule is broken down by the enzymes "before" it causes damage. Hey, we're all different. It works for me.

Ungh! I didn't misunderstand that one.

It's 1am out here on the east coast. I gotta go to bed.

[Rachel--24]

This topic is more than important enough to be worth clarifying these points.

I agree....and I certainly dont want people to get the impression that I'm saying that glutenease (or any enzymes) can stop intestinal damage from occuring.

I said that "In my opinion....less symptoms = less damage (in a person who is symptomatic).

So yes....in my opinion based on everything that I've read about enzymes...I think that it helps to some extent with small *accidental* glutenings (cross contamination issues).

I dont know for certain if damage is occuring or not. To me it just seems logical that if a person normally gets terribly ill from cc....and then doesnt have that experience while taking the enzymes....it must be doing *something* to help.

In my opinion....something is better than nothing.

If I had a child who was going outside to ride his bike...I would put a helmet on his head....just in case. It doesnt necessarily mean that if something happens no harm will be done...but I think it does minimize the risk. Thats how I feel about the enzymes...if you are going to possibly be at risk for exposure....*something* is better than nothing. When something is clearly working for alot of people...I dont really need all of the answers.

Its the same with acupuncture....nobody really seems to know how or why it works....it just does. People who have acupuncture are doing it because it helps them...they arent really understanding the "science" behind it. Even my totally conventional HMO provided acupuncture....simply because it works for alot of people. But really, how many years had acupuncture been around before it became an "accepted" form of treatment??

I tried to explain my opinion of less symptoms = less damage right here:

What I'm saying is that if a person who is highly sensitive and has terrible reactions to gluten (which leave them "disabled" for a few days each time) takes the enzymes and only notices a very small reaction (which does not leave them disabled at all)...its probably because the enzyme is helping to some extent.

Personally, I dont think that terrible symptoms are a good thing....and I dont think its good for the body to have that kind of stress. To me it seems like NOT having that type of reaction would be better for the body...and for the immune system.

and let me also state that when the body is under stress...."damage" can occur anywhere....as a result of a stressed out immune system. So when I say less symptoms = less damage....I'm talking about a persons overall health.

I have no idea whether or not a person who's taking the enzymes for cc will prevent any villi damage from occuring. However, I really dont see how they could be making their situation WORSE by taking the enzymes?? If cc is gonna happen...its still gonna happen regardless of whether or not someone is taking enzymes.

If people report less symptoms and if they say that they feel "better" overall when taking the enzymes.....I am going to come to the conclusion that the body is functioning better as a whole. Generally, symptoms and feeling bad are a stress to the body....so again, in my opinion...an improvement in symptoms can only be a positive sign.

If I'm wrong let me know.....but doesnt an improvement of symptoms usually indicate that something positive is occuring??

[elonwy]

Rachel I think that your last post hit upon the issue with GlutenEase. You just presented a rational argument for taking enzymes to better your digestive health to help you deal with anything you might come across, the same way that I take probiotics, for the same reason. "this makes my whole system better, therefore I deal with issues better." Thats a statement I can get behind.

The issue with GlutenEase, its website and many of its supporters is that its not presented this way. Its specifically states that it helps protect you against gluten and its evil side effects. If this were presented in such a way to say "Hey, this helps your digestion work better, so therefore you'll be stronger when dealing with CC, and you may experience less side effects because of it" Its not being sold that way, its being sold in a reactionary way, and that's going to cause reactions in people.

I'm not going to try it because I have some borderline blood sugar issues, and the last thing I need is something that turns carbs into sugars faster. (Which is beside the point, but I feel is worth mentioning.) I'm also not convinced Amylase should be a supplement that is taken internally, but I'm willing to be proved wrong on that point.

[Unclezack]

I think it can cause harm by giving a Celiac a false sense of security, leading to riskier eating, which leads to more damage.

I don't think there's a way to know whether glutenease is effective at reducing cc symptoms, since practically by definition, ppl w/out a reaction don't know whether they've been cc'd.

I'm only specifically addressing whether glutenease is a good idea for a celiac - not whether it can help non-celiacs and not whether OTHER enzymes can help celiacs.

UncleZack did say he has celiac disease.

"His" webpage reads like a thinly-veiled sales pitch to me.

I don't know that it is - I'm giving my impression.

From "his" webpage:

" .. ..but if you absolutely refuse to give up eating glutinous[sic] grains, then, by all means, take GlutenEase with every meal that you eat that contains gluten."

I find such talk highly irresponsible.

Some may disagree w/ me, pointing out that the words "gluten-intolerant" are used in that paragraph instead of "celiac", but the page IS @ spruehelp, not glutenintoleranthelp, and the page earlier presented the widely-held opinion that GI & celiac are one.

Tom,

I have two daughters, ages 30 and 34 who both have all the signs of Gluten intolerance and very possibly it has gone far enough to be Celiac disease. I also have two female acquaintances in the same age group who have complained to me of the same symptoms. A good friend of mine who nearly died from Celiac disease has two daughters with the disease. One went gluten-free and the other one suffers and refuses to change her diet. A lot of women live for bread and pasta, and are unlike most men who are more carnivorous. I have pleaded with my daughters and suggested to the other three to by all means go to the doctor and be tested for Gluten/Celiac problems. Stop the damage before it gets worse. I was 52 years old when I finally found out why I was sick all of the time. The response of all five women was that there was no way they could give up eating bread. My statement about taking an enzyme based product if you refuse to quit eating gluten means exactly what it said. There are people who will not change their eating habits until they are so sick that it is a matter of life and death. I can't make these people quit eating gluten anymore than I could make a drug addict or an alcoholic change their ways, but there is something built into me that makes me want to try. I believe that a person who refuses to quit eating gluten will have less intestinal damage if they take the enzymes than someone who uses no protection at all. I don't in any way claim enzymes to be a cure, but they can lessen the symptoms and the damage.

If someone told you they were going to jump over 20 school buses on a motorcycle but even though you told them it was too dangerous, they insisted on doing it, wouldn't you at least advise them to wear a helmet and some protective clothing?

Tom, I respect many of your views on Celiac disease. I know you disagree with me about the use of enzymes. I take no offense to that, and there is probably no point in us arguing about it anymore. I have no intention of not using something that works for me. I take them only when there is a possibility of cross contamination. I have not been gluten sick since I started taking the enzymes.

BTW, I am taking down the link to my website. I was informed I was breaking the rules. But since you were there, I will assure you that I am not getting any compensation from the mention of products I have linked. They are only there as suggestions of products have worked for me.

[Unclezack]

I'm not going to quote Rachel's posts because they are so long, but in response to Post #50 and #51 in this thread, I agree with her 100%. It just makes more sense to be proactive than reactive when it comes to your health and well being.

I am certainly no one's shill and I take GlutenEase on a fairly regular basis because I feel better when I take it than when I don't. I work very hard at avoiding cross contamination, but I still feel better when I take it than when I don't.

Others in the forum take other enzymes and/or herbs for the same reason.

For the life of me I don't see why that should make someone else angry.

It works for me. If it doesn't work for you, then leave the bottle on the shelf and don't buy it. But don't go around bashing what works for me or what works for others.

Thanks home_based_mom and everyone who has defended my views on Glutenease

Rachel came out and defended my views on Glutenease and then you defended Rachel. I was a shill last night, but I think I'm in better graces tonight because of all of the support. I am saying thanks to everyone who voiced their good and bad experiences with Glutenease. I hope people will continue to ignore the criticism and name calling and say what they really think.

[Rachel--24]

Rachel I think that your last post hit upon the issue with GlutenEase. You just presented a rational argument for taking enzymes to better your digestive health to help you deal with anything you might come across, the same way that I take probiotics, for the same reason. "this makes my whole system better, therefore I deal with issues better." Thats a statement I can get behind.

Those were my thoughts when I read your post...and the benefits from probiotics. I felt that it wasnt any different.....just two products basically doing the same thing...which is improving digestion. I dont think that anyone can argue that optimal digestion is a very good thing with regards to how well the body is going to function overall.

The issue with GlutenEase, its website and many of its supporters is that its not presented this way. Its specifically states that it helps protect you against gluten and its evil side effects. If this were presented in such a way to say "Hey, this helps your digestion work better, so therefore you'll be stronger when dealing with CC, and you may experience less side effects because of it" Its not being sold that way, its being sold in a reactionary way, and that's going to cause reactions in people.

I think thats because the product is designed for people who are not Celiac. For alot of these people it really DOES eliminate all of those evil side effects. It enables them to break down the protein so that they are able to digest it properly. Undigested gluten....or casein....or soy....can cause problems for anyone....Celiac or not. It can cause inflammation.....it can promote yeast and bacteria overgrowths...it can result in leaky gut.

So by allowing the proteins to be digested....all of those inflammatory reactions that can occur in a non-celiac can sometimes be resolved....simply by introducing the enzymes.

Also, anyone having leaky gut is going to have problems when these undigested proteins leak through. The enzymes seem to prevent that...I guess because the proteins are broken down...digestion is improved and things are moving out??

I dont know all the "science" but it sure works for alot of autistic kids who were having severe problems with gluten and casein prior to the enzymes.

I dont know how well Glutenease works for them....because most reports are regarding another brand....a completely different formula which only contains specific enzymes to break down the proteins...particularly gluten, casein and soy.

Anyways, from my perspective (as a non-celiac) I dont feel that the site makes false claims....because its not making the claim that the enzymes can be used to treat Celiac Disease.

If its helping people with Celiac to feel better and to have less symptoms when there are "accidents"....then I think its a good thing. I can only assume that its beneficial for the same reasons that your probiotics are beneficial.....that the digestive system is functioning better....and as a result people feel better overall.

I think if Enzymedica were marketing their enzymes towards the Celiac community....then that would be a major issue. But I'm not under the impression that they are doing that.....and I'm not seeing any ads here on Celiac.com for the enzymes.

I just dont see whats wrong with Celiac's using them if they are experiencing positive results.

[Woolygimp]

accidental double post

[Woolygimp]

I'm done with this thread. Fair warning was given, if there are people out there that want to buy into this guys sham after all evidence was given (especially, that this company is run by a guy with a history of fraud) then by all means waste your money.

You'd think people would wake up and understand that not everyone is honest, and sometimes people will do anything (especially lie and provide bogus products) to make money. The natural supplement and alternative health market is FULL of this BS, but this isn't worth my time to argue.

Proof positive that certain people will believe anything no matter how outrageous the claim. After all there are those that believe in faith healers, bigfoot, vampires, and that the FDA is a big bad mean corporation trying to keep working medicine out of the public's hands.

[Rachel--24]

The natural supplement and alternative health market is FULL of this BS, but this isn't worth my time to argue.

After all there are those that believe in faith healers, bigfoot, vampires, and that the FDA is a big bad mean corporation trying to keep working medicine out of the public's hands.

Ahhhh...I had a feeling it would come down to that. Of course, because its an alternative....it cant possibly be useful....and of course...it *must* be some type of bogus sham.

To each their own.

Please dont bash people who are a little more open minded. Also do some research on enzymes....they are naturally occuring in the body. Its nothing to do with "voodoo".

[Unclezack]

Ahhhh...I had a feeling it would come down to that. Of course, because its an alternative....it cant possibly be useful....and of course...it *must* be some type of bogus sham.

To each their own.

Please dont bash people who are a little more open minded. Also do some research on enzymes....they are naturally occuring in the body. Its nothing to do with "voodoo".

I agree.

The human body produces it's own enzymes. Digestive enzymes are secreted from our salivary glands as well as the villi in our intestines. People with Celiac disease most likely have no or limited production of enzymes from the damaged villi. Some enzyme production may return as the villi heal after some time abstaining from gluten. The salivary glands produce a number of enzymes which are supposed to start the digestive process as we chew our food. The better we chew our food, the easier it is to digest. That is why if we wolf our food down, we get indigestion and will probably be hungry again sooner than we should be. I am guilty of this myself. It may be possible that people like me who have trouble with digestion are causing a lot of their own problems. I think this could also lead to hypoglycemia. I am not saying that people who have gluten allergy or Celiac disease can start eating gluten because they chew their food longer.

I was going to post a link about salivary enzymes, but maybe it is safer for me to say that if anyone is interested in this topic, Google: enzymes in saliva.

[VioletBlue]

So you're now claiming WITH NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO BACK YOU UP that this product does indeed prevent intestinal damage. "I disagree that the product doesn't prevent intestinal damage. The offending molecule is broken down by the enzymes "before" it causes damage. Hey, we're all different. It works for me."

That is what snake oil is, an untested product being sold on the premise that it cures ailments you can't prove it cures.

The offending gluten protein is a chain of 32 peptides that the vast majority of people who consume it DO NOT succeed in breaking down. That includes Celiacs, non Celiacs and everyone in between. Breaking it down or not breaking it down has nothing to do with the damage it causes to Celiacs. The damage is caused by the auto-immune reaction that takes place in someone's intestines and throughout their body. At best, at very best this product MIGHT mask symptoms. But your assumptions about the benefits of breaking down gluten is faulty to begin with. Break it down, don't break it down, the immune reaction occurs either way. And once the immune reaction occurs, intestinal damage happens. Mask it if you like, if this product actually does do that, but you're still doing damage to a Celiac body.

First of all, an apology to the entire board that I mentioned my website. I am currently trying to edit the post or have it removed. I am waiting for an answer how to do that since I had already edited it once. I am truly sorry, and the references to my website will be removed as soon as possible. I did not read the board rules, but have been to many boards that eventually become more spam than content. I understand the reason for the rule.

Secondly, I do not take enzymes so I can cheat. That is not the intent of most people who take them nor does the manufacturer make these claims. I take them on the rare occasions of eating (supposedly) safe foods in a restaurant, or if we have guests in our home who don't seem to understand that they can't dip the knife back into the jar of mayonnaise or the butter dish. I am so intolerant that a toast crumb in the butter dish could set me off for three days.

I disagree that the product doesn't prevent intestinal damage. The offending molecule is broken down by the enzymes "before" it causes damage. Hey, we're all different. It works for me.

[Ridgewalker]

I was going to post a link about salivary enzymes, but maybe it is safer for me to say that if anyone is interested in this topic, Google: enzymes in saliva.

I'm not a moderator, but I can tell you that you're free to post relevant links (and btw, you are permitted to list your own webpage/blog in your personal profile.) This is not like some other boards where alternative theories are not allowed to even be discussed.

It's good to discuss these things and hash out conflicting ideas and opinions.

[Ridgewalker]

The damage is caused by the auto-immune reaction that takes place in someone's intestines and throughout their body. At best, at very best this product MIGHT mask symptoms. But your assumptions about the benefits of breaking down gluten is faulty to begin with. Break it down, don't break it down, the immune reaction occurs either way. And once the immune reaction occurs, intestinal damage happens. Mask it if you like, if this product actually does do that, but you're still doing damage to a Celiac body.

I have to agree.

[elonwy]

I also just wanted to state, that though I take probiotics because they make me feel better by making my digestive system stronger, and I'm sure enzymes do the same thing, I don't think that I'm protected in any way from CC. CC happens and damage happens, and the probiotics just help me bounce back faster.

[Unclezack]

I'm not a moderator, but I can tell you that you're free to post relevant links (and btw, you are permitted to list your own webpage/blog in your personal profile.) This is not like some other boards where alternative theories are not allowed to even be discussed.

It's good to discuss these things and hash out conflicting ideas and opinions.

Thanks,

I know that is permissible, it's just that a lot of informative web pages also contain ads for related products. After the bashing, name calling and accusations of being a shill by another member, I'm being a bit cautious. I am a newbie here, even though I joined in January. I looked at this thread then and saw the negative attitude towards enzymes. At that time, I chose not to comment. A few nights ago, I took another look at the board and decided to post a few comments based on my experiences with enzymes.

I have been using enzymes since shortly after I became gluten free in May 2003. I have never felt better, so I wanted to share that with others. I totally agree that total avoidance of all glutenous grains is the only cure for Celiac Disease, but CC happens. Enzymes keep me from spending the day in the restroom.

I know, just like with any group of people, it takes time to be accepted. People by nature are skeptical. I know that some people will agree with me and some won't. I don't expect everyone to agree with me or even accept me as a part of the group, but as you said, "It is good to discuss these things and hash out conflicting ideas and opinions." I agree with that. That's how we learn, sharing ideas and information. I plan to remain a member here and I will try not to step on anyone's toes. I know I shouldn't have called one of the members a "flat earth basher" , but he really got my feathers ruffled.

[Rachel--24]

I found this article and I think it explains exactly what I've been trying to say in my posts. It seems that there has definately been some confusion....and I think it comes mainly from the fact that the enzymes are used by both Celiacs....and non Celiacs. They are used for the same purpose in both conditions...which would obviously be to improve digestion...however, there is an *understanding* that Celiacs do not have a free pass to consume gluten just because these enzymes are available.

The enzymes can be beneficial for *everyone*....Celiac's included. No, they are not to be used by a Celiac in place of the diet....but yes....they can improve digestive function...including helping the body to process the gluten more efficiently. Noone knows if traces of gluten from *every* incident of cc are causing villi damage...I think this would vary with each individual.....because we dont all have the same immune system...and we dont all react at the same level. For example...some Celiacs eat oats without any problems...others cannot handle oats at all.

Some people react to tiny traces of gluten...other people dont seem to have this problem. Is damage occuring in every instance regardless?? We dont really know...because each person is different. Some people state that they are extremely sensitive to minute traces of gluten....other people state that they are not all that sensitive and are rarely "glutened". Is the exact same immune response occuring in every instance of exposure...do all Celiac's react to the same level of cc?? My opinion is that each person is different.

In addition to each person having their very own immune system....they will have many *other* differences as well. Some Celiac's will have problems with leaky gut...others will not. Some Celiac's will have bacteria/yeast overgrowth....others will not. Some Celiac's will continue to have enzyme deficiencies...others will not. I could go on and on....but the point is that everyone is different.

I would have to assume that a Celiac who has additional digestive issues is going to benefit from the enzymes more noticeably than a Celiac who has no other complicating factors. Therfore I do believe that they can be just as useful for a Celiac...as they can for a non-celiac. But I'm stating AGAIN...that this does not mean the Celiac can consume gluten without consequence. The diet is life-long....and as of now...we dont know of any other form of treatment for Celiac Disease.

I dont think that anyone can say with 100% certainty that the enzymes cannot prevent tiny amounts of gluten from causing problems. Nor can we say with 100% certainty that the enzymes CAN prevent damage from occuring. We dont have those answers....and I believe that it would vary greatly with each individual. This is why they cannot be used as a "treatment" for Celiac...they are not meant to be a "cure" for ANY disease.

I think its possible that UncleZack (if he's for real ) and others who report reduction in symptoms as well as improvement in other areas...may actually be feeling better because the offending proteins (not just gluten) are being broken down....so less inflammation and more healing. Maybe its because its helping with other gut issues.

Even if its not helping with cc at all....maybe since the "rest" of the gut is functioning better...the reaction is less severe. I *still* think that is a very positive thing. Some people might believe that its better to feel sick...and its better to be completely run down for a few days (or even a few weeks) as a result of a glutening. However, I kind of think that the body and the immune system would not agree. I dont think its good for the immune system to be run down...and I still think if people *feel* better....then it means that their body is doing better overall.

Symptoms are actually the body's way of telling us that it is not doing well. In my opinion those Celiac's who are asymptomatic despite absolute villi damage...are symptom free only because their body/immune system hasnt yet reached the point where it cannot *handle* what is going on.

Eventually the scales will tip...and that person will become sick...and they will have symptoms as a result...only because the body/immune system is under such stress that it can no longer keep you from feeling sick. Then that person begins searching for answers...and going through the process of testing for everything under the sun...until the Celiac is found.

Some people will get sick BEFORE that much damage is found...because their body/immune system is saying that its had enough. Again, each person is very different. I think when symptoms are occuring its never a good thing for the body/immune system...but thats just my opinion.

Well...I said alot more than I intended (which is nothing new)... but here is the article for anyone interested. Hopefully it answers some of the questions people have had....or at least explains things better than I was able to do.

Gluten Intolerance: Celiac and Non-celiac

Separating the Wheat from the Chaff

The emergence of newer digestive enzymes over recent years has uncovered many wonderful advances in digestive health care. Using digestive enzymes for gluten intolerance has received particularly intense scrutiny, and for very valid reasons! Hopefully, this discussion of some basic issues will help smooth out some of the commonly encountered confusion.

The term "gluten intolerance" is a general description meaning a person has difficulty completely digesting gluten to some degree. However, it does not tell you what the underlying cause is. To what extent digestive enzymes may help with gluten intolerance will vary depending on the individual situation.

Gluten is a type of protein compound in certain cereal grains (primarily wheat, barley, and rye - the basis of breads, baked goods, and pasta). Although previously oats were suspect too, there is now considerable clinical evidence that oats do not possess this exact type of protein or activate celiac disease.

The inability to sufficiently digest gluten protein can lead to all sorts of symptoms, including skin rashes, irritability, aggression, moodiness, "brain fog",

[Rachel--24]

Here are the results of a study on autistic children who began taking enzymes.

100% 109 new responses

92% 100 positive/successful

3% 3 inconclusive

5% 6 negative or no results at all (2 people)

Of the negative results:

2 people saw no change at all either positive or negative, and counted themselves as negative

1 person had an allergic reaction (upper body hives to papain/bromelain)

2 people had continued excessive negative hyperness

1 person saw no positive and diarrhea for one month

Of the inconclusive results:

2 people had mixed positives and negatives and wanted to continue to work on it

1 person was seeing negative results, but wanted to continue to give it more time and work on it.

Of the positive results:

1. Many (around 35%) described the level of improvement as very great or immense, using such terms as: immense improvement, amazing, incredible, overwhelming, unbelievable, awesome, etc.

2. Many (around 35%) described the level of improvement as very good or good, using such terms as: noticeable, significant, very good, much more, great, surprising, unexpected, etc.

3. Some (around 20%) described the level of improvement as good to okay, using such terms as: steady improvement, slow but constant, somewhat, progressively, some, etc.

4. Few (around 5%) described the level of improvement as positive overall without any huge immediate gains, using such terms as: somewhat, incremental, little bit, sort of, I think there is, and also included those who saw improvements in physical symptoms but not in behavior, or in behavior but not in physical symptoms (or at least to the level and range they were hoping for).

This indicates that most people see positive results, and when they do see positive results it is in a significant and noticeable way.

Open Original Shared Link

My own doctors report the same level of success with their patients.

I dunno....but it just doesnt come across as "snakeoil" to me.

Maybe I'm just REALLY gullible and naive.

[Woolygimp]

Here are the results of a study on autistic children who began taking enzymes.

Open Original Shared Link

My own doctors report the same level of success with their patients.

I dunno....but it just doesnt come across as "snakeoil" to me.

Maybe I'm just REALLY gullible and naive.

What medical journal was this published in? Who conducted it?

...and above all else, why was there no control and no placebo?