Anyone Else Tired Of "celiac" Vs "gluten Sensitive"?

[ksymonds84]

Except what about DH???? DH sufferers often have NO villi damage, yet all doctors are in agreement that DH is a definitive diagnosis of celiac disease, with or without villi damage.

SO--we know that celiac disease is an autoimmune reaction that CAN bypass the intestines and attack the skin. So why is it such a stretch to think that it can also attack something else, like the thyroid, the brain, the pancreas, the joints....

YES. My brother in law's only symptom was DH and some neuro symptoms. Negative celiac panel and negative endoscopy and biospy. He only found out he was celiac through going to a dermatologist who did a biospy of his rash and discovered DH. He now gets digestive problems if he accidently ingests gluten but perhaps its because his body no longer recognizes it.

[AliB]

Why is it also such a stretch to conclude that the reactions that people get may not also be due to bacteria? During their digesting process bacteria throws out many and varied different kinds of toxins or by-products. Some will create gas through the fermentation process, some will create alcohol/ethanol, others give off distinctive aromas (think methane or sulphur) - others however can throw out very nasty toxins into the body - like the Shiga toxin produced by certain strains of E.Coli. Blood poisoning happens when certain bacteria get into the body and reproduce at such a rapid rate throwing out toxic by-products that the immune system cannot cope with.

Is it too much a stretch of the imagination to comprehend that some of those bacterial-produced toxins could actually affect different parts of the body?

We know that links have been found between a proliferation of Klebsiella and Ankylosing spondylitis. We know that links have been found between an overgrowth of Proteus and Rheumatoid Arthritis. What we don't (yet) know is which bacteria can affect other areas of the body, or how.

Whilst the immune system will eventually get the upper hand in some infections, others can go on for years in a low-key way - not always enough to make people desperately sick, but enough to render them debilitated.

Some, however, are very sick and no one seems to know what is wrong with them. Those Celiac/Gluten Intolerant who actually get better after dropping gluten actually seem to be very much in the minority. Those who are NCGS are very much left to their own devices, often accused of malingering or of their problems being psychological - often as mhb said, being accused, even by family members of being 'drama queens', with little or no understanding or compassion.

Because only Celiac is recognised as a 'legitimate' disease, all those thousands of very poorly NCGS sufferers fall into a medical big black hole. The fact that they do not have a legitimate 'name' for their problem does not mean it doesn't exist. It is only recently that the Medical Profession has finally had to begrudgingly accept that CFS and Fibromyalgia are real illnesses.

Those with problems other than just gluten are by far much worse off all-round than so-called 'true' Celiacs. As I have mentioned before, I suspect that eventually it will be found to be all down to bacteria. Those who recover after the removal of gluten may be dealing with one or two that can be brought under control just by the removal of gluten - Many have much more difficult and complex issues to have to try and deal with especially where multiple food intolerances are involved - usually, unless they have very supportive family and friends, on their own.

Someone poo-poohed the idea of it being linked to Candida. Funny though that so many Celiac/NCGS have issues with Candida/yeasts. If they have issues with those, how many other bacteria strains are they having problem with that don't show obvious symptoms? Or - just maybe, the symptoms from those other bacteria are actually the illnesses that they are suffering with???

Many Celiacs have issues with Candida and gut dysbiosis, as do Diabetics, as do people with Crohn's, and Diverticulitis, and RA, and MS, and even many with mental problems like Bipolar and Schizophrenia - the list is endless. The only people I know who don't have Candida, are well. You know, I would be very, very surprised if someone didn't eventually discover that there is actually a link after all................

[Lisa]

SO--we know that celiac disease is an autoimmune reaction that CAN bypass the intestines and attack the skin. So why is it such a stretch to think that it can also attack something else, like the thyroid, the brain, the pancreas, the joints....

I believe that it has been proven that gluten autoimmune can cross over to other parts of the body. It no longer is called Celiac, which is exclusive to the small intestines.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I believe that it has been proven that gluten autoimmune can cross over to other parts of the body. It no longer is called Celiac, which is exclusive to the small intestines.

No, it is not exclusive to the small intestines, because DH is recognized as celiac, and, as I've explained above, many DH sufferers do not have small intestine problems.

[Lisa]

https://www.celiac.com/articles/21519/1/Spe...rmis/Page1.html

Specific Gene Tied to Dermatitis Herpetiformis

Celiac.com 01/08/2008 - Scientists at the University of Finland have announced the discovery of a particular gene that is tied to the development of the celiac-associated skin disease dermatitis herpetiformis, which is the form of celiac disease found in a full 25% of all celiacs. The gene is called myosin IXB, and it is located on chromosome 19p13.

In addition to being connected with a higher risk of celiac disease in both Dutch and Spanish populations, the gene has been associated with a higher risk of inflammatory bowel disease, systemic lupus, erythematosus, and rheumatoid arthritis, which means that myosin IXB is likely a shared risk factor in all of these disorders.

Researchers looked at nearly 500 Hungarian and Finnish families, plus another 270 patients and controls. What they found was a substantial linkage to chromosome 19p13 (LOD 3.76 P=0.00002) that lends great weight to the notion that this is a substantial risk factor. Other variants of the myosin IXB gene showed no connection with celiac disease, though they did show a small connection to dermatitis herpetiformis.

Both phenotypes show a significant connection indicating that the role meaning that there still may be a role being played by nearby genes. They are calling for more comprehensive genetic and functional studies to determine what the exact nature of the role the myosin IXB gene in both celiac disease and in dermatitis herpetiformis.

As more studies are conducted, and more data emerges, we are likely to get a much clearer genetic picture of both celiac disease and dermatitis herpetiformis. A clearer genetic picture will likely lead to new and novel approaches to treatment that permit much more effective targeting of treatment.

Journal of Med. Genet. 2007 Dec 12

-----

This article implies a DH relationship with Celiac Disease and the specific gene's role of myosin IXB associated with Celiac but not specific to. And it is indicated as a shared risk factor with other disorders.

[ksymonds84]

Ali,

Please don't get me wrong, I agree with you on many of your points and believe your posts are a great help to those that do not respond to just the removal of gluten alone. Dr. Lewey here in Colorado Springs, starts his celiac patients off with a probiotic if they are having the gi symptoms. Also, a group leader for a local celiac support group will suggest the carbohydrate specific diet for those that keep having issues after removing all gluten from their diets. So I agree there is more to this puzzle. Lucky are the celiac's that do get better from just removing gluten alone.

[mhb]

This article implies a DH relationship with Celiac Disease and the specific gene's role of myosin IXB associated with Celiac but not specific to. And it is indicated as a shared risk factor with other disorders.

I think this is really important, that I don't think we know, to my knowledge, how much of the conditions strongly associated with celiac are associated because they are both caused by gluten, or they are simply two (or more) conditions one is predisposed to by the same gene(s). I have read that the high rate of type 1 diabetes concurrent with gluten is due to some of the same genes being involved, not necessarily that gluten caused the diabetes. And, to weave in the microorganism byproduct line of thinking (although I don't personally think anything boils down to one cause), it's possible those genes cause specific immune reactions to microorganism byproducts as well as to certain food-related proteins.

Have any major networks/shows covered this issue at all, more than quite a quick "health minute" type of disservice? I'd like to know who and when so i can try to pull up an archive and see how the issue was treated.

[caek-is-a-lie]

I would go so far as to say that if one can't say for sure they have "celiac" they face potential and often real stigmatization of being a drama king or queen.

Yes mhb this is exactly what I fear. And that fear is founded on solid experience from going through diagnosis and treatment for my Narcolepsy. Just being proactive about my health makes them treat me like a drama queen but I assure you I couldn't be further from it.

I think it's possible that although I had a negative serum test, I do have Celiac since it runs in my family, and the Celiac ate my brain and that's why I have Narcolepsy. After all, Narcolepsy and Celiac share a similar HLA heterodimer, and eating gluten puts me in a paralyzed coma (and then induces non-epileptic seizures.) But you can't test my brain for antibodies so who knows? It's just a theory but I know others that are starting to think the same thing about themselves. Yet without any numbers on paper, who's going to take me seriously? How do I know I really have antibodies at all? It's frustrating but in the end, I'll probably just keep eating gluten-free and continue healing and feeling better. I'm finally losing weight and I have more energy and I don't feel hungry all the time like I'm starving even though I'm eating tons. It's so wonderful I don't ever want to go back. Everyone in my everyday life treats it very seriously and totally believes me so I guess that's what's really important.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

https://www.celiac.com/articles/21519/1/Spe...rmis/Page1.html

Specific Gene Tied to Dermatitis Herpetiformis

Celiac.com 01/08/2008 - Scientists at the University of Finland have announced the discovery of a particular gene that is tied to the development of the celiac-associated skin disease dermatitis herpetiformis, which is the form of celiac disease found in a full 25% of all celiacs.

Thank you for the interesting information.

You'll notice that the article you quoted called DH a form of celiac disease, not non-celiac gluten intolerance.

My point was that there could be many forms of celiac disease that don't necessarily affect the intestines, not just DH.

[Lisa]

I still support the fact that DH is an associated risk with Celiac Disease and is not Celiac Disease. It is referred to Dermatitis Herpetiformis as a gluten response reaction in the skin, but not exclusive to Celiac. Celiac Disease reaction remains in the small intestines.

But, there is a great deal of research needed.

Back to the Celiac vs. Intolerant discussion.

[confused]

I was recently diagnosed with DH. My dermatologist said since i tested positive for Dh, that i have celiac disease. He also talked to an gastro dr that said, my chances of showing villi damage in the gi tract were slim because my celiac manifests in my skin.

[mhb]

Boy, if all these responses don't illustrate my original point. There are so many ways people use all the terms, and different assumptions they make when they use them, that we are not - truly - all having the same conversation ... medical community and online forums alike. I believe we have a situation here ;-) But what to do about it? The main celiac research centers, it seems to me, should do a better job of elucidating it all, but I think they don't because they don't know much.

And what about the major gut-health/health variable of gut neurotransmitters and nervous system? No question this must play a part, but I hear no mention of it. See Open Original Shared Link :

"With 100 million-plus nerve cells (more than in any other organ, including the spinal cord) and a prolific chemical factory churning out all the same neurotransmitters found in the brain (including more than 90 percent of the body

[ravenwoodglass]

I still support the fact that DH is an associated risk with Celiac Disease and is not Celiac Disease. It is referred to Dermatitis Herpetiformis as a gluten response reaction in the skin, but not exclusive to Celiac. Celiac Disease reaction remains in the small intestines.

But, there is a great deal of research needed.

Back to the Celiac vs. Intolerant discussion.

Sorry to disagree with you here but DH is celiac, it is not found with other conditions and a diagnosis of DH IS a diagnosis of celiac disease. That has been well established even in the US for years.

[lizard00]

To clarify Momma Goose's post:

According to the NIH:

celiac disease is a digestive disease that damages the small intestine and interferes with absorption of nutrients from food.

DH is frequently linked with celiac disease, but not exclusive to. Treatment protocol is antibiotics for some, and suggestion of removing gluten from the diet. Often, intestinal damage is NOT done in patients with DH.

The NIH indicates that the cause of DH is unknown.

The American Osteopathic College of Dermatology states that it is possible to have celiac disease, celiac disease and DH, or just DH. They actually classify DH as an allergic reaction.

There are always dissenting opinions about the medical profession being up to date, however, Lisa is not posting a personal theory. A quick internet search will give you the same information I found.

[AndreaB]

I have to agree that classicaly DH is considered celiac. Once you have a leaky gut it would be pretty easy for the gluten protein (I'm not sure of the official word once broken down) to cross over and cause varying problems/reactions thoughtout the body.

The report that MommaGoose posted from sounds like it's saying that the gene linked with DH doesn't always cause DH, but it does say that DH is a form of celiac disease. It sounds like with the discovery of this gene that has been linked with DH that they are finding other diseases as well and that it needs further research.

[lonewolf]

This is a really interesting thread! I don't have the right genes for celiac, but I do get some GI symptoms when I eat gluten. I have a kidney disease, which the nephrologist told me was autoimmune, that went totally into remission when I went fanatically gluten-free. I know of others with the same kidney disease that have had similar responses, but the doctors won't believe that gluten has anything to do with it. No gluten = no kidney disease. Gluten = kidney disease + horrible medication. I might be "just" gluten intolerant, but it's very serious.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

from the Celiac Sprue Association:

"What is Dermatitis Herpetiformis?

Dermatitis Herpetiformis (DH) is an important associated disorder or complication of celiac disease which is manifested in the form of a skin rash. There is strong evidence that the changes in the intestinal mucosa and the immunologic findings in the majority of patients diagnosed with DH are identical with those found in celiac disease. Gluten has been found to have a close relationship with this skin rash. DH is often referred to as "celiac disease of the skin" while celiac disease is referred to as "celiac disease of the gut."

We really need to be careful for the sake of newbies on this thread who might have DH and no obvious intestinal symptoms. I've been on DH sites, where many DH sufferers are told they don't need to be gluten-free, they just need to keep taking Dapsone.

It would be VERY easy for a newbie reading this thread to get the idea that he doesn't need to go gluten-free because he doesn't have celiac, which according to the quote from the NIH is something other than celiac--????!!!!!

Come on, we all know better. At least, most of us do.

[ravenwoodglass]

Here is what the NIH has to say about celiac and DH. I have read alot about what the NIH says about celiac and DH and I have never seen it referred to as an allergic reaction.

"Dermatitis Herpetiformis

Dermatitis herpetiformis (DH) is an intensely itchy, blistering skin rash that affects 15 to 25 percent of people with celiac disease.3 The rash usually occurs on the elbows, knees, and buttocks. Most people with DH have no digestive symptoms of celiac disease.

DH is diagnosed through blood tests and a skin biopsy. If the antibody tests are positive and the skin biopsy has the typical findings of DH, patients do not need to have an intestinal biopsy. Both the skin disease and the intestinal disease respond to a gluten-free diet and recur if gluten is added back into the diet. The rash symptoms can be controlled with antibiotics such as dapsone. Because dapsone does not treat the intestinal condition, people with DH must maintain a gluten-free diet."

Open Original Shared Link

[AndreaB]

Ravenwood,

I had just read that and was going to post too.

I'm encouraged about any further studies they do to continue to try and nail down more about celiac genes etc.

Unless something is posted to the contrary, what I've read still says DH is the skin manifestation of celiac.

Dangerous Grains lists many, many gluten associated medical conditions, so it wouldn't surprise me if they linked other things with DH, but it doens't seem to change that DH would stop being considered a skin manifestation of celiac, and if it did they would have the burden of proof about those with DH who eat gluten and break out.

[mhb]

from the Celiac Sprue Association:

"DH is often referred to as "celiac disease of the skin" while celiac disease is referred to as "celiac disease of the gut."

Yea, a brilliant breakthrough in terminology! I like this structure, but I would go one step further and say:

gluten autoimmune disease of the intestines, aka celiac

gluten disease of the nervous system

gluten disease of the reproductive system

gluten disease of the skin

gluten disease of the kidney

gluten disease of the thyroid

gluten disease ... fill in the blank

[can we put "autoimmune" in all of those with certainty?]

It doesn't matter the known and unknown mechanisms (microorganisms, enzymes, immune cells ...) for purposes of communicating at restaurants, with family and friends, etc. It matters we take ourselves seriously first, and others take us seriously second.

That way classic celiac stays what it always was, and the rest of us are not celiac, not gluten "sensitive," not gluten "intolerant" (the latter two being too descriptive of personality in everyday usage) ... we have "gluten disease of the ..."! Wouldn't we be taken more seriously? And all this focus on getting dx through endoscopy - only *really* relevant for gluten disease of the intestine/celiac - can be supplanted with the diet gold standard. If your symptom goes away off gluten you have "gluten disease of the ...." We don't need endoscopy to be taken seriously by ourselves or others, though it isolates for some that gluten/celiac is the cause of their digestive distress. You see it's all been a problem of language and I couldn't wrap my brain around it. While I respect the ***slooooow*** role of the science community in getting a grip on all this, in the near term patients need to take charge of how this disease is articulated. The medical community, in large part, is too busy and detailed to get the big picture, often not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't know what fallout we experience by them choosing to label many of us "gluten sensitive" and "gluten intolerant." We on the ground are getting the big picture and paying a price for the knowledge that we no longer need to pay. We have to fix this problem of communication. As another poster said on another thread, you are not looking for a dx of celiaac, you are looking for a correct dx.

Can anyone improve on "gluten disease of the ..."? I am ready, never having had an endoscopy, to confidently inform people that I have "gluten disease of the reproductive and digestive systems," but I think it'd be great to get a bunch of people, if others agree, to start a movement together so there's language consistency in a new communication of our issues that will serve us better.

I guess the only problem I'm spotting with this is the unknown of when gluten *causes* a "related" condition and when it is just the same gene predisposing to both. How 'bout:

"gluten-related autoimmune disease of the ..."

A little wordy but ...

[mushroom]

Yes, that is a good start. But the problem for most of us in trying to describe what we have is that the general public is not aware of any of this terminology, even if they have by now heard of celiac. Most people don't know what gluten is or where it is found, they think of a disease as something contagious (look how afraid people used to be of those who had cancer, thinking that they might "catch" it), they don't understand auto-immunity since most people only know about the "immunity" that a vaccine provides (or immunity from prosecution ), and in my case they certainly don't understand about rheumatoid arthritis, equating it with osteoarthritis and saying, "Oh, I have that too." So if I were to say that I have gluten-induced (or related) autoimmune rheumatoid arthritis, or in the alternative, gluten-related autoimmune disease of the skin (psoriasis, not DH) and joints, the average Joe would just look at me and say "Huh?"

On the other hand I certainly do not describe myself as "gluten intolerant" because the word "intolerant" has become associated with a choice, that you can choose to tolerate something, or not, just as sensitivity implies that we are thin-skinned (mine certainly is but not in that sense ).

To me it is an impossible conundrum, and I prefer to call myself celiac even though I have no official diagnosis, because to me it is the most descriptive of what I have, encompassing the whole range of disorders that gluten provokes, including the digestive that I also have. But that is just my two cents worth.

[Mother of Jibril]

I know this won't work for everyone on this forum, but with friends and family members I've started saying that "I have one of the genes for celiac disease." It seems to ring a few bells for people...

1) This is serious

2) It's not a choice

3) It's genetic... maybe you should get tested

The best thing is that it's absolutely true! I can even use this statement with doctors. If they know anything about celiac disease I can always go into more detail.

[AliB]

This is very, very 'chicken and egg'. What comes first?

Interestingly many of you accept that there is a link with Leaky Gut, but where does the Leaky Gut come from? What causes it?

If it was down to the gluten, then every person who is 'genetically' Celiac would have it. But the fact that some get no reactions and do not develop the disease suggests that gluten is not the catalyst.

But if the Leaky Gut was triggered by rogue bacterial activity due to gut dysbiosis and that allowed the proteins to escape into the bloodstream then a reaction would be triggered. Just perhaps those who do not develop the disease do not have gut dysbiosis and therefore do not have Leaky Gut.

There are so many questions that cannot be answered by the 'conventional' route.

Celiac is diagnosed by a positive blood test and a positive biopsy. Out of all the thousands with Gluten Intolerance, only a fraction are diagnosed Celiac. Perhaps only a fraction have activity that has triggered a breakdown of the gut wall and a higher level of antibodies.

We know that low levels of antibodies are dismissed as negative. But I wouldn't mind betting that everyone with 'Celiac-type' responses will have some kind of antibody reaction. If the Medical Profession decided to include all those with any reading above zero, they would suddenly find themselves with a Celiac Epidemic on their hands (funny - isn't there a book about that.......... )

Many will probably disagree with me but I wonder sometimes if the 'genetic' thing doesn't actually throw a red-herring into the mix. I am sure that if they tested 100 people with athlete's foot, they would probably find some genetic marker that would link most of them! So, because most have the same genetic marker, that must be the marker for Athlete's foot?? Hmm.

Some are DQ2, some DQ1, some DQ3, DQ8 or a pair - some 'genetically' apparently have Celiac, yet they don't have the disease. They 'think' these are genetic markers for the disease, but they are not really sure.............quite a lot who have 'Celiac' have the markers, but then so do quite a lot who don't have it. My jury is open on that one...............

Like I said - sometimes people are looking for the complex answer when the simple one is actually staring them in the face. Although many with DH do not have the positive biopsy it does not mean that they do not have Leaky Gut. Just maybe it is a particular bacteria emitting a particular toxin in those people that triggers the DH. It may be a different bacteria emitting a different toxin that triggers different kinds of reactions in different people. It certainly makes more sense to me than 'it happens but we don't know why'.

On this section is a thread about Dientamoeba Fragilis & Blastocystis Hominis, two pathogens, one a bacteria, the other a parasite. They may be just two of the many that may be contributing to some of our health issues. Interestingly they feed on carbohydrates, including gluten-based ones. Although not able to destroy them, a low-carb diet has helped because it has removed some of their food source and calmed down their activity. It has taken a long time before anyone started to take any notice of these as potential pathogens.

I think I am going to have to start a list. With Borrelia, Klebsiella, Proteus, Candida, and now Dientamoeba and Blastocystis there is a few to start it off. Anyone got any more? Would you know if you had? Unless someone tests for pathogenic bacteria/parasites (although admittedly some parasites are easier to see) and even knew what they were looking for how would any of us be able to find out??? If they can't even provide a fail-safe test for Celiac, how would they ever manage it for pathogens?

Needle in a haystack? More like a pinhead in a sandstorm!

[Fiddle-Faddle]

AliB, I agree with you 100%, especially about the genetics..

I would only add that, while these rogue bacteria probably play a role in many health problems, including celiac, I don't think that they are the only trigger.

Remember, some people have celiac (and other autoimmune conditions) triggered from PHYSICAL stress, such as being in a car accident, having surgery, childbirth, etc., or EMOTIONAL stress (any of the above, plus losing a loved one, breakup of a relationship, final exams, etc.). I'm not convinced that rogue bacteria play any role in those situations.

However, rogue bacteria and the immune system would certainly be affected by vaccines (both the inactivated virus and the preservatives and adjuvants injected with it). Many autistic kids (and a HUGE percentage of autistic kids are gluten- and casein-intolerant) test positive for Lyme disease. I wonder how many would test positive for Dientameoba and Blastocystis?

I have a major disagreement with the way celiac is diagnosed. Using damaged villi as the "gold standard" of diagnosis is like diagnosing a peanut allergy ONLY when the patient goes into anaphylactic shock.

[AliB]

AliB, I agree with you 100%, especially about the genetics..

I would only add that, while these rogue bacteria probably play a role in many health problems, including celiac, I don't think that they are the only trigger.

Remember, some people have celiac (and other autoimmune conditions) triggered from PHYSICAL stress, such as being in a car accident, having surgery, childbirth, etc., or EMOTIONAL stress (any of the above, plus losing a loved one, breakup of a relationship, final exams, etc.). I'm not convinced that rogue bacteria play any role in those situations.

I am not convinced that gut flora may not be affected by stress, either physical or emotional. If the flora is already somewhat compromised, a trauma could just be enough to tip the balance. So many parts of the body are involved - the adrenals, the immune system, the Liver and Kidneys, etc., that if any one of them isn't working properly it can have a knock on effect on the rest of the body.

We don't know what processes happen during a period like that - perhaps the immune system that may be fighting an ongoing battle with the beasties ends up having to be diverted to support the trauma or stress leaving the way open for the opportunistic pathogens to invade. Not everyone will end up ill or 'Celiac' after a trauma, but just maybe those with already compromised flora will. It is not that far-fetched a possibility.

However, rogue bacteria and the immune system would certainly be affected by vaccines (both the inactivated virus and the preservatives and adjuvants injected with it). Many autistic kids (and a HUGE percentage of autistic kids are gluten- and casein-intolerant) test positive for Lyme disease. I wonder how many would test positive for Dientameoba and Blastocystis?

I absolutely agree that vaccines are a dangerous modern invention, especially the multiples. How many more children are not affected is beyond me, but then perhaps they are, in other ways. We only see a tenuous link between vaccines and Autism, but potentially they could trigger anything.

My youngest grandson, at his last visit when just 4 was given seven (seven!!!) vaccines in one fell swoop. How the heck he managed to escape anything dreadful I can't imagine. But then he is already small for his age and has learning delay and I am sure it did nothing to help that. Maybe he was just old enough to 'get away with it'.

How they can imagine that throwing that many virii at a little child in one go can be perfectly ok is beyond me. No wonder everyone is so sick - between that and antibiotics they are doing their darndest to kill us all off! I can imagine it must play merry whatsit with children who already have compromised flora. Their poor immune systems must be under the most incredible stress. Again, it gives opportunistic bacteria the chance to get their feet under the table.

PS. Borrelia is always associated with tick bites, but what if it can be passed on in feces, or picked up from tick 'dung' in the ground, through pet contact - well, any number of ways - I suspect that tick bites are one of the least ways of picking up Borrelia - and any number of other pathogens..............

I have a major disagreement with the way celiac is diagnosed. Using damaged villi as the "gold standard" of diagnosis is like diagnosing a peanut allergy ONLY when the patient goes into anaphylactic shock.

Hear, hear. The Medical Profession seems incapable half the time of diagnosing anything unless it is already at its worst! Isn't that they way they normally diagnose Peanut Allergy???

They at present have no way of finding Leaky Gut and generally have no comprehension that it even exists. The 'gold standard' only takes samples from the top of the villi so unless they could get right down to the gut wall they would not be able to tell, and then it could be anywhere. The only real way to tell is through antibody testing. If ingested antagonists are getting into the bloodstream at any level then somehow they have to be getting through the gut wall - hey, don't they already have that test???