Many Doctors Are Trained By Big Pharma

[Jestgar]

There are many types of breast cancer. Pre-menopausal is distinctly different from post- (estrogen sensitivity and stuff).

Mammograms are still recommended for post menopausal women because they do detect tumors (breast tissue becomes less dense with less estrogen).

If you have no family history, and don't want a yearly mammogram, don't do it. Your doc may argue, but it's your body.

[Jestgar]

Considering that only 1 in 100 women suffered breast cancer at the turn of the century (1900) and today it is 1 in about 8, I find those appalling statistics.

These are very difficult statistics to interpret. Screening has improved considerably. Metastatic breast cancer might previously have been diagnosed as lung or bone or wherever it had gone to. Or not diagnosed at all. Life expectancy has increased in the last 100 years. etc.

[Tim-n-VA]

One source I found in a search said that there were over 600,000 doctors in the US involved in patient care. This is a board oriented toward a disease that shares symtoms with other diseases making it tricky to diagnose. The board has over 26,000 registered members but fewer than 200 have more than 500 posts. I don't know what the average number of doctors someone sees in their life but using 50, we are talking about real knowledge of less than 1% of the doctors in the US.

Since those 600K doctors are all human, I'm confident that a wide range of attitudes, skills and motivations are represented. I'm highly skeptical about words like "many" and "most" that are non-quantitative but imply a quantitative knowledge.

It has been my experience that people are more likely to talk about bad service than good service. Of course I wouldn't want to generalize based on an unscientific survey like that.

Bottom line is that all you know is what you experienced. You don't know what the other person's motive was.

[tarnalberry]

I find it interesting that society's role in this has not been brought up yet. I think as a culture, we "westerners" (and other industrialized countries) are hedonistic and impatient, and we want results NOW. IMO, mainstream America thinks, "Why eat healthy foods, why exercise, what's the point? That takes time. That's a lot of work. I want an easy fix NOW." So, just pop a pill, symptoms abate, and bad/dangerous/unhealthy habits continue. The majority WANT a quick fix and a simple solution.

Honestly, I think some doctors get a bad rap for being service providers for what their clients want. That's kinda the problem in medicine, you might know what they need, but if the patient isn't going to follow through, you're going to offer them something that's not as good, but is better than nothing. Patients don't want to hear "oh, your back pain? there's nothing we can do with that sprain. the best bet is to ice for 20 minutes every hour, go for as long of a walk as you can reasonably manage four or five times a day, stop sitting in front of a computer or TV for very long, and add some pillows to your bed to prop you up appropriately as you sleep. you'll start feeling better in about a month or two." But if you want to avoid chemicals, and encourage the body to heal itself, that's a pretty good way to go.

Of course, that's a major inconvenience to the patient, who would find it very hard to work into their regular schedule, and hence wouldn't do it. They'd instead do contradictory things - including sitting at a TV or computer for a long time, probably with bad posture - that made the pain worse. Then they'd just want to take OTC ibuprofen (instead of using ice as the anti-inflammatory) and keep going with their lives, rather than their bodies.

So what's a doctor to do? Find a compromise that recommends icing at night (when inflammation may be worst, but it's not a huge inconvenience to the patient either), getting a few minutes of walking in once a day (which may or may not be followed), and prescribing the systemic anti-inflammatories that will work the fastest (like ibuprofen, rather than omega-3, which can take two months and doesn't do the same work on injury as systemic inflammation). So you're on drugs, not getting optimal care, because the doctor knows they have to find a compromise that the patient can work with as well.

No, I'm not saying this is true in all cases - sometimes a doctor is overworked and misses something, sometimes a doctor is uninformed and doesn't know something, sometimes a doctor is arrogant and won't consider other ideas. Sometimes, doctors are human.

[WW340]

It is pretty obvious that it is more profitable for the big Pharma to advertise directly to the consumer, rather than to the physicians. Commercials are crowding all forms of media these days.

Tarnalberry and Tim-n-VA both make good points here.

How many of your friends and relatives do what the doctor advises about weight loss, exercise and quitting smoking. It is not that the advice is not given, but the majority of the population does not want to do it the hard way, they want a pill.

As far as how so many of us have been through the ringer before being diagnosed, it is a difficult disease to diagnose. And while the numbers sound impressive that 1 in 133 could be celiac, if the physicians treated everyone first for celiac and put them on the diet, or did all the celiac testing, they would be delaying relief for 132 out of 133 instead of 1 out of 133. Multiply that by the thousands of people they treat and they wouldn't have very many patients left.

And yes, doctors do have a fear that the diet is too hard for someone to follow, when the majority of the patient population won't even follow a weight loss diet, or cholesterol diet, or diabetic diet. Not only that, but you read here everyday about people that have been diagnosed or self diagnosed who can't stay on the diet.

If you don't get a proper diagnosis in the beginning, you may never get one, and then put an awful lot of time between your trials of different diets. A great many people here don't get complete relief from eliminating gluten, so they take away dairy, then caisen, then try the paleo or scd diet. Months or even years may go by before they return to traditional medicine to try to find what else might be causing their symptoms.

I personally think it is a dangerous game that some play here with a little internet knowledge and the advice that gets given. It may work for the majority, but someday someone that should have had their cancer diagnosed earlier won't, because they thought all they needed to do was try the diet and then when that didn't work, eliminate other things, until months go by.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for trying the natural way to do things. But I do think traditional medicine should be sought first and all other things ruled out. Many other diseases coexist with celiac disease, or mimic celiac. Those diseases can kill also, sometimes more quickly than celiac.

It is not bad medicine to have endoscopy or colonoscopy if indicated. It is bad medicine to assume you have the answer without knowing you have the answer and not look further.

There are bad doctors, like in any walk of life, but to say that most or all doctors are bad is not even a reasonable conclusion.

[mamabear]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the overall tone of this thread. Doctors are required to participate in CME(continuing medical education) in order to remain on staff at their hospitals. It varies somewhat from specialty to specialty as to how many hours are required. These credit hours are not given in "big pharma 101", but in approved courses from legitimate institutions which may be at the local medical school,out of state, or an excellent course is from the NEJM(New England Journal of Medicine) which can be completed online or the old fashioned way of reading and filling out a form. CME is generally a service that physicians pay for. I find information about PRODUCT is being disseminated by the pharmaceutical representatives and not "education". It is not serving self to constantly degrade and berate physicians as some posters do on this forum. Who do you think sponsors all the PA's,RN's and NP's?? Who do you think they turn to when they have a need to ask someone with 8-10 more years of education??

There is also an apropos quote for this thread........

He who treats himself has a fool for a physician and a jack*** for a patient.

[mayfaire]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the overall tone of this thread. Doctors are required to participate in CME(continuing medical education) in order to remain on staff at their hospitals. It varies somewhat from specialty to specialty as to how many hours are required. These credit hours are not given in "big pharma 101", but in approved courses from legitimate institutions which may be at the local medical school,out of state, or an excellent course is from the NEJM(New England Journal of Medicine) which can be completed online or the old fashioned way of reading and filling out a form. CME is generally a service that physicians pay for. I find information about PRODUCT is being disseminated by the pharmaceutical representatives and not "education". It is not serving self to constantly degrade and berate physicians as some posters do on this forum. Who do you think sponsors all the PA's,RN's and NP's?? Who do you think they turn to when they have a need to ask someone with 8-10 more years of education??

There is also an apropos quote for this thread........

He who treats himself has a fool for a physician and a jack*** for a patient.

So being careful about what you eat is being a fool and a jack***?

I am confused, I thought with the amount of good publicity/spin the AMA gets in the media, there wouldn't be a need to continue the propaganda in a celiac disease forum of all places. I would think that this forum (more so than others) would be a place for venting the frustration of being misdiagnosed and damaged by traditonal medical practices. Do you not know that celiac diseases are caused by ingesting gluten that in turn damages the villa in the intestines (often silently) until so many villa are flattened the celiac becomes sensitized by things such as dairy, soy, night-shade etc. and that the resulting mal-absorption of nutrients in turn causes numerous maladys such as MS, heart problems, nerve disorders?

[rinne]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the overall tone of this thread. ....

........

He who treats himself has a fool for a physician and a jack*** for a patient.

:lol:

Call me a fool and a jack***.

The fact is I went to doctors and I had tests. My doctor was an idiot that prescribed medication that would have made me sicker if I had taken it. It is standard medication prescribed for digestive disorders and it stops Vitamin B from being absorbed; my Vitamin B levels were at a critically low point at that time. I was obviously ill and she said it was stress, at no poiint did she even inquire about my diet.

I think our medical system is dangerously deluded about what health is, I don't trust it and I would rather be a dead fool and jack*** than allow them to ever mess with me again.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Mamabear, the respected institutions you mention are all linked with big pharm. 2/3 of medical schools are headed by CEOs who have financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry. Medicine as practiced in this country is based on treating complaints with medications. It is NOT based on looking for root causes.

Even "preventive care" is pharmaceutical in nature--vaccines.

Now, I'm not against the idea of vaccines. What could be better than strengthening the immune system to ward off serious illnesses?

But the vaccinations currently in use have been rushed into the "routine" schedule without adequate testing--and sometimes in direct opposition to the studies that have been done. INFANTS are being given unnecessary and ineffective vaccines that have a host of dangerous, sometimes deadly side effects and complications.

Infants are being vaccinated with the hepatitis B vaccine the day they are born, even though a 1999 study showed approximately as many infants had died from the vaccine than have died from hepatitis B (which is mainly transmitted through sexual contact or shared needles with an infected person), and more tahn a thousand more were hospitalized with serious reactions to that vaccine. That is straight from VAERS, the agency set up for reporting adverse effects to vaccines.

So many of us here have had our symptoms MIS-treated by doctors, and were able to find our cure (gluten-free-ness) either independently of the doctors or in spite of them, your cute little saying no longer has a basis in truth.

Really, more of us have fools and jack--- es for doctors than otherwise, which is very, very sad.

Certainly, there are good doctors out there. But I find it extremely disturbing that I have been able to successfully diagnose several friends and acquaintances with celiac (diagnoses confirmed by bloodwork/biopsy after the fact) when their doctors never even considered it, despite their years of CME.

[Lisa]

Do you not know that celiac diseases are caused by ingesting gluten that in turn damages the villa in the intestines (often silently) until so many villa are flattened the celiac becomes sensitized by things such as dairy, soy, night-shade etc. and that the resulting mal-absorption of nutrients in turn causes numerous maladys such as MS, heart problems, nerve disorders?

I expect that mamabear is well aware of the attributes of Celiac Disease to a far great extent than many of us on this forum.

I don't think it's fair to jump down the throat of any profession in general terms and use ALL doctors as a whipping boy for years of anguish. It was obvious in the beginning of this tread that it was going to be a doctor bash by some. Too bad. We have lost a lot of good people doing this very thing.

[Jestgar]

Again, if you make bold statements, you need to back them up with sources.

If you stand by what you say, take the time to support it.

[Lisa]

Now, I'm not against the idea of vaccines.

[mayfaire]

I expect that mamabear is well aware of the attributes of Celiac Disease to a far great extent than many of us on this forum.

I don't think it's fair to jump down the throat of any profession in general terms and use ALL doctors as a whipping boy for years of anguish. It was obvious in the beginning of this tread that it was going to be a doctor bash by some. Too bad. We have lost a lot of good people doing this very thing.

My intention was to vent frustration and maybe prevent others from following in the same painful expensive footsteps that I had taken in trying to figure out why I was suddenly so sick and now have damaged kidneys thanks to the drugs I was pescribed. Knowlede of gluten intolerance has been around for ages and is the root cause of so many disorders that you would think it would be well known everywhere by now, especially with hybrid grains making cases more severe than years past.

Somewhere in here someone said "bad service" is what stands out the most as if the beef with the AMA is rare human mistakes. I see people every day who come to me in pain and I am absolutley appalled at the poisons prescibed for them on a REGULAR BASIS from the medical profession.

[Tim-n-VA]

Somewhere in here someone said "bad service" is what stands out the most as if the beef with the AMA is rare human mistakes. I see people every day who come to me in pain and I am absolutley appalled at the poisons prescibed for them on a REGULAR BASIS from the medical profession.

I don't think anyone said that the beef is the rare human mistakes. Your last statement is the issue. When people go to a doctor and get successful treatment they don't go to someone else in pain so your view is distorted because you see a disproportinate number of people who were failed by their doctors.

[mushroom]

I don't think anyone said that the beef is the rare human mistakes. Your last statement is the issue. When people go to a doctor and get successful treatment they don't go to someone else in pain so your view is distorted because you see a disproportinate number of people who were failed by their doctors.

I think maybe what Mayfaire is saying is that she thinks a disproportionate number of patients overall are failed by their doctors. Certainly when you read on here the numbers of people who have seen multiple doctors and ended up having to diagnose themselves, it does give cause for concern. And this statement is not doctor bashing. It is just a reflection of the content of this forum--the difficulty of getting a doctor to consider the diagnosis of celiac.

Quick edit addition: And speaking for myself, I think I would have been a fool and jack*** to continue eating gluten just because I couldn't find someone who had the sense to tell me not to.

[Darn210]

I think maybe what Mayfaire is saying is that she thinks a disproportionate number of patients overall are failed by their doctors. Certainly when you read on here the numbers of people who have seen multiple doctors and ended up having to diagnose themselves, it does give cause for concern. And this statement is not doctor bashing. It is just a reflection of the content of this forum--the difficulty of getting a doctor to consider the diagnosis of celiac.

To this I will respond with this previous statement . . . with which I heartily agree:

It has been my experience that people are more likely to talk about bad service than good service. Of course I wouldn't want to generalize based on an unscientific survey like that.

I will add that I love my daughter's doctor. I had heard of Celiac prior to her diagnosis and did not even consider it a posibility for her (her one and only symptom was acid reflux). He was the one that screened her for it. I will also add that he has never rushed us out of his office. We've talked about intolerances versus allergies. We talk about hormones and additives in food. He's generally caring and I will try to be more vocal from now on about what a GREAT doc he is.

[jerseyangel]

I will add that I love my daughter's doctor. I had heard of Celiac prior to her diagnosis and did not even consider it a posibility for her (her one and only symptom was acid reflux). He was the one that screened her for it. I will also add that he has never rushed us out of his office. We've talked about intolarances versus allergies. We talk about hormones and additives in food. He's generally caring and I will try to be more vocal from now on about what a GREAT doc he is.

I've had my share of misdiagnosis--I've talked about it plenty of times here over the years. I do have to also say that my last 2 GI's have been helpful to me, in varying degrees, I think because even in the last few years many more doctors (GI's especially) are so much better versed in Celiac.

I was diagnosed in 2005--up until then I had been ill for over 20 years. That year, I had come across Celiac in a magazine article (Prevention, actually) and it set off all sorts of bells and red flags in my mind.

I immediately booked an appointment with a GI, and asked him point blank if given my history and symptoms I could have this. He scheduled me that day for an endo and colo since we wanted to rule things out as well. He diagnosed me a month later.

I will always be grateful to him for listening and agreeing to do the test. He didn't believe in food intolerance and refused to speak to me about it as time went on, but I sought the help of a wonderful allergist who did believe that I was sensitive to other foods and suggested a elimination diet

Fast forward to last year and my new GI (necessary since we had moved to this area). She was not only well informed about Celiac, she really listened and tried her best to get to the bottom of my lingering symptoms and food intolarances.

She sat and talked to me, asked how this all began and did a complete workup. She took 50 minutes with me at my first appointment--and not once did I feel hurried or that she didn't take me seriously. Turns out I do have a related form of colitis which she treated (is treating) me for.

All this said, I can understand the feelings of those who have been dismissed over and over again--I've lived it. I guess it comes down to where you're coming from, as we all can only speak to our own experiences. As fine a doctor and person as my GI is, I do remember being told by former doctors that "I'd just have to live with it" and being shot up with Decadron (steroids) because they didn't know what else to do with me.

Whatever the case, it really saddens me to read the horror stories and at the same time hopeful when I hear how far we've come in terms of awareness in the medical profession.

[rinne]

A wonderful response Patti, thank you.

I am glad for those who have found good doctors, I just don't think that they are in the majority.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Again, if you make bold statements, you need to back them up with sources.

If you stand by what you say, take the time to support it.

Jestgar, your quote got cut off in your post, so I'm not sure what you want me to back up.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Is this supposed to be a helpful comment?

I am NOT against the idea of vaccines, as I went on to explain in my previous post. The principle is a sound one: prevent serious disease by activating the immune system against them in advance.

It's the way the idea has been put into practice with all kinds of serious, literally life-threatening flaws, as well as the dishonest practices of the pharm industry, that led to the current vaccine schedule and marketing practices to which I so strongly object.

[Jestgar]

Jestgar, your quote got cut off in your post, so I'm not sure what you want me to back up.

You stated a lot of things as fact. Cite sources for those. If you say, for example, a vaccine causes disease, that should be referenced. If you say, I think this vaccine has led to an increase in disease, that's an opinion, and can stand alone.

[Tim-n-VA]

I think maybe what Mayfaire is saying is that she thinks a disproportionate number of patients overall are failed by their doctors. Certainly when you read on here the numbers of people who have seen multiple doctors and ended up having to diagnose themselves, it does give cause for concern. And this statement is not doctor bashing. It is just a reflection of the content of this forum--the difficulty of getting a doctor to consider the diagnosis of celiac.

Quick edit addition: And speaking for myself, I think I would have been a fool and jack*** to continue eating gluten just because I couldn't find someone who had the sense to tell me not to.

That is what I thought she was saying. I was trying to say how I thought that way of thinking might be wrong. This article about Open Original Shared Linkis perhaps a better explanation of what I meant.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

You stated a lot of things as fact. Cite sources for those. If you say, for example, a vaccine causes disease, that should be referenced. If you say, I think this vaccine has led to an increase in disease, that's an opinion, and can stand alone.

Sorry, I still don't understand what you want me to cite sources for. Is it the 1999 study? If so, that can be found at www.nvic.org. It can probably also be found by googling "1999 study hepatitis vaccine"

Here is also something with TONS of references: Open Original Shared Link

Do we need more references?

[mayfaire]

You stated a lot of things as fact. Cite sources for those. If you say, for example, a vaccine causes disease, that should be referenced. If you say, I think this vaccine has led to an increase in disease, that's an opinion, and can stand alone.

I think I could be biased because I do see a lot of people looking for relief from poor habits and medically inflicted conditions. After a while I see so many afflictions I think it represents the whole US, maybe it doesn't.

I am also biased because a doctor COULD have told my mother (whom I am sure had Celiac disease, judging by family history and her symptoms) to completely leave gluten out of her diet, but did he tell her that? No he wasn't trained in WELLNESS he was trained in DISEASE so she trusted him, listened to bad advice and followed medical procedure that in 1963 hasn't changed much (judging by the crap I was prescribed) all these years later-- in return the crap they gave her caused seizures so much so that the nurse in an attempt to stop the seizure stabbed my 46 yr old mother with a hypo-dermic full of muscle relaxant thus stopping her heart.

[Jestgar]

Mamabear, the respected institutions you mention are all linked with big pharm. 2/3 of medical schools are headed by CEOs who have financial ties to the pharmaceutical industry. Medicine as practiced in this country is based on treating complaints with medications. It is NOT based on looking for root causes.

Even "preventive care" is pharmaceutical in nature--vaccines.

Now, I'm not against the idea of vaccines. What could be better than strengthening the immune system to ward off serious illnesses?

But the vaccinations currently in use have been rushed into the "routine" schedule without adequate testing--and sometimes in direct opposition to the studies that have been done. INFANTS are being given unnecessary and ineffective vaccines that have a host of dangerous, sometimes deadly side effects and complications.

The bolded statements are written as fact and should have sources cited.