Many Doctors Are Trained By Big Pharma

[purple]

Yeah, but how much credence do you give to all these 'studies'? I mean, Galileo did a 'study' that told him the earth was round and they stoned him for it. The people who step out on a limb in the medical arena are regularly treated the same way, with cries of 'heretic' and 'quack'. People are discouraged by doctors from taking herbal medicines that have been proven safer than their drugs over thousands of years of use, but 'scientists' will tell you that if there's no studies done to prove it, don't take it. I have a great deal of trouble putting faith in studies, they're used as a double edged sword and far too frequently the data is massaged to support whatever they set out to do in the first place. Studies need funding, and are far too easily bought. The first thing I do with any study is look at the funding. Guess who funded the original Vioxx studies?

Great reply, my thoughts exactly!

[Fiddle-Faddle]

I was approaching this from the independent researcher being unable to publish. It is true that whoever pays the bills, holds the data. However, I have never heard of a medical school, or a university funding research. They can't really afford it.

Actually, at a university, it doesn't matter if you pay for your own research--as faculty, research fellow, PhD candidate, grad student, whatever, your research belongs to the university.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Why not ask them for it? It's easier, and quicker just to give a second shot. For most people it's not a big deal.

How many parents do you think even KNOW that this is possible? I didn't, and I'm not exactly an idiot, nor am I lacking in formal education.

And how many pediatricians are advised, as our ped was, that the first MMR shot only lasts 5 years, and that's why a booster is "necessary?" He offered us a titer as a long shot to avoid a second MMR; HE didn't think it likely that our child had enough antibodies after 8 years.

Yes, it's easier and quicker to give a second shot. But for so many people, "easier and quicker" comes with a terribly high price, and NOBODY is ever advised of the real risks. Ask those who watched their child deteriorate after the first shot and see if they think "easier and quicker" was worth it.

[Jestgar]

How many parents do you think even KNOW that this is possible? I didn't, and I'm not exactly an idiot, nor am I lacking in formal education.

My 17 year old niece, who didn't even finish high school, took the time to educate herself on vaccinations for her son before he was born. I don't think it has anything to do with education, more with trust. You trusted an institution (medicine) she didn't.

[Jestgar]

Actually, at a university, it doesn't matter if you pay for your own research--as faculty, research fellow, PhD candidate, grad student, whatever, your research belongs to the university.

The university owns the patent, if you get one (which isn't common) but any research funded by the government, which is most research that takes place at universities, is required to become publicly available, either through publications, or on web based databases.

I haven't researched it, but I've never heard of a case of a university censoring publication.

[rinne]

......

And my response to Rinne: Your health should have always been in your control, and you should always fire a physician that doesn't accept that. As was recently pointed out, there are good and bad doctors. Stick with the good ones.

Other than when I was too young to have a choice I have avoided doctors, I have always seen my health as my responsibility. I once saw doctors as useful for diagnosis but not for treatment but after going through what I have I no longer consider them useful for diagnosis, I have little reason to go to them. I intend to live until I die and if that means winter camping then there will be a lovely last fire.

It is interesting to see how polarized we are (allowing for varying degrees of that polarization ) between confidence in the medical system and dismay at the consequences of the same system. You say who do you believe? I believe what I see and experience, I don't need the studies to tell me there is something deeply wrong, I can see it with my own eyes.

My sister was diagnosed with IBS and then about five years later her doctor told her that she also had celiac, he told her to avoid wheat. That's it, that's all, no mention of gluten, no mention of family being tested which would possibly saved my brother and I becoming so ill. She continued to eat rye bread until my brother and I both got very ill with celiac and I talked to her about it. She thought the reason she was still so ill was the IBS.

Good doctors, bad doctors, these days it looks to me like the odds of finding a good doctor are on par with winning the lottery. I know there are many kind doctors but really given the limitations of their training of what use are they? Sure they will do the tests, the CT scan equivalent to a 100 chest x-rays, sure you can drink the various glow in the dark liquids so they can peek inside, sure you can drink the iodine solution that does kill, read the fine print and when you have taken the omeprazole and you have no Vitamin B left in your body and your falling over like you're drunk you can let them do a brain scan because maybe it is a tumor......and then when you life has fallen apart because you are in so much pain you'll let them cut anything out of your body just for some relief and they do and find out that, whoops that wasn't the problem after all........ I object to it all.

I think we go to them for help when we are sick and that we put ourselves at risk by doing so, I question the wisdom of doing many of the tests they do on people who are so vulnerable. I came across an English study that showed 1 in 100 died within a month of an endscopy, it is common knowledge with the crohn's community that these tests cause flares.

I respect your right to choose that system, I am glad for those who have had positive experiences and I would still suggest that anyone have their vitamin and mineral levels checked and then ask for a copy of the test and study it themselves.

[Jestgar]

I think the medical system is a tool, to be used as I see fit. Not a savior, designed to protect me from myself.

Your sister could have chosen to research Celiac, instead, she chose to blindly follow what she was told. She willingly gave control of her health to someone else. IMHO, her poor results were a direct consequence of her unwillingness to take an interest in her own health.

Harsh, I know. But if you don't care enough about yourself to protect your health, why should you expect someone else to?

I have seen too many people, even on this forum, dismiss what they were told (by anyone) in order to follow what they wanted to believe. Sometimes the choice was correct, sometimes not. How many posts have you read from someone deciding to eat gluten despite knowing it makes them ill, because they don't have an "official" diagnosis? Or because the blood test was positive, but the endoscopy negative? Or vice versa? How many people were told they are not sick, but opted to go gluten-free anyway?

I don't believe you should blindly accept anyone's opinion, unless you have been given good reason to trust them. This is why I ask people to post their references. Too many people have gotten out of the habit of taking care of themselves. They want to be told what to do. I want to encourage people to research what they are told. To make decisions based on multiple sources of information.

Most of the people on this forum have spent time doing research on themselves. Why not pass that information on to others, along with links, to show that they have researched their choices? At the very least, this will weed out the people that want to spout inflammatory ideas, without thought to the potential consequences.

[sbj]

It's quite interesting to read these stories about people who were never warned by their doctors/HMOs about anything. My experience has been so different. Before my first colonoscopy I was required to attend a two hour session where the dangers were explained and I had to sign a paper certifying my attendance and understanding. When I got a flu shot they made me read a flyer about the dangers associated with vaccines and I had to wait at the facility for 15 minutes afterwards so they could see if I showed signs of an allergic reaction. They even told me about VAERS, gave me the website (www.vaers.hhs.gov) and phone number (1-800-822-7967). They told me about the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (1-800-338-2382, www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation).

My point is that any reputable healthcare provider is going to provide all of this information so that the consumer can make an informed choice. Anyone on this site here knows that at least part of their health is their own responsibility. I would say that if your healthcare provider is not offering information such as my HMO freely provided then you are not seeing a very good healthcare provider.

I took a moment to look up MMR vaccine on my health provider's website and I found absolutely tons of info. A sample:

"What are the risks from MMR vaccine?

A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions. The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small. Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting any of these three diseases. Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any problems with it. . . . Several other severe problems have been known to occur after a child gets MMR vaccine. But this happens so rarely, experts cannot be sure whether they are caused by the vaccine or not. These include Deafness, Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness, Permanent brain damage"

The website includes a long discussion about the supposed link between autism and MMR vaccine (it debunks the claim but the info is there for all to see). For instance, "Because the exact cause of this sometimes devastating condition [autism] is not known, some parents will continue to have concerns despite the evidence. In these cases, parents should be aware of the risks of serious disease in children who are not vaccinated." They also explain that with the exception of some influenza vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the United States to protect preschool-aged children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative. (Influenza vaccine is currently available both with thimerosal as a preservative and preservative-free.)

[rinne]

I think the medical system is a tool, to be used as I see fit. Not a savior, designed to protect me from myself.

Your sister could have chosen to research Celiac, instead, she chose to blindly follow what she was told. She willingly gave control of her health to someone else. IMHO, her poor results were a direct consequence of her unwillingness to take an interest in her own health.

.....

I agree with you, I would add that there are many other tools that may be of more benefit than conventional medicine.

As for my sister, I agree with you in that each of us must take real responsibility for our health and she did not. However, her doctor who had diagnosed her with IBS ( hello celiac when you don't have enough damage to tell it is celiac) and then celiac obviously failed her miserably. He should have directed her to not consume gluten not just wheat and he should have told her that she didn't have IBS, and that he was an idiot for not diagnosing celiac before. Of what benefit has this doctor been to my sister? Did he actually help her? I don't think so, he misdiagnosed her and then he medicated her.

She's my baby sister and the last time I saw her she looked so very ill, it breaks my heart that she trusted her doctor.

[Jestgar]

I agree with you, I would add that there are many other tools that may be of more benefit than conventional medicine.

I would say 'of equal benefit' depending on how you use them.

I don't know what your sister was told, vs what she heard. We all have selective hearing. After this whole gluten thing came up for me, I was discussing it with a friend and she said 'oh, I'm allergic to wheat'. She brought me a copy of her test results and there, on the form, was gluten, circled. Clearly her doctor had told her about it, discussed it with her, but the only word she remembered was 'wheat'.

That whole IBS BS, is a whole 'nuther story...

[JNBunnie1]

The data are almost never "massaged". If you go to the original study, and look at the data, you get the right answer. What are "massaged" are the interpretations.

You mean like the Bressler Report fiasco?

[Jestgar]

You mean like the Bressler Report fiasco?

OK, that's way too long to read, and I don't use other people's interpretations to form my opinions, so I'll stick with emphasizing "almost never", on the assumption that the study shows otherwise.

Actually, I'll edit this to say:, maybe the FDA should commission outside labs to verify company findings before granting licenses.

Actually I'll edit this again to say, according to this: Open Original Shared Link , the whole thing was more political, and less to do with a company getting it's way. The report I've cited may be bogus. I didn't research it's credibility.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Harsh, I know. But if you don't care enough about yourself to protect your health, why should you expect someone else to?

Not just harsh, but also narrow-minded.

There is a cultural element here that has nothing to do with not caring about yourself enough to protect your health. It is about having been raised to have faith in and respect for members of the medical profession as experts with knowledge not available to the layman. Certainly, in the past (pre-Internet days), they had access to studies that the rest of us simply didn't.

Obviously, things are very different now, but the idealistic view of the doctor as well-educated, caring expert in the health of his/her patients is still part of our culture.

And many doctors are very harsh when you try to be proactive about your own health. There are pediatric practices in my area who don't accept patients who are not up-to-date on immunizations. Doctors react with open disgust when you mention that you have researched anything on the internet. With copays going higher and higher, it is inconvenient, expensive, and sometimes downright difficult to switch from doctor to doctor. I have had my dental records "lost" at my last switch (the dentist said I needed 2 teeth pulled, even though I had no symptoms, and I wanted a second opinion. That was 3 years ago, and my teeth are still fine, AFAIK.).

BTW, that's a whole other thread waiting to happen (dishonest dentists)...

Hey, sbj, WHERE do you live? It does sound like your health care providers are absolutely awesome about giving info to patients. I have NEVER heard of anything like it, and hope that other doctors catch on soon. I live in Pittsburgh, where medical care is supposed to be state-of-the-art (teaching hospitals, medical schools, etc). When my hubby had a colonoscopy, he wasn't given any of the same info you were given, just a half sheet of instructions. When #1 son had open-heart surgery, I had to ASK what the risks were, and was only told of the possibility of infection. Vaccines--the only risks listed on the half sheet of paper were irritability, slight fever, and soreness/redness at site of injection.

[Jestgar]

Not just harsh, but also narrow-minded.

There is a cultural element here that has nothing to do with not caring about yourself enough to protect your health. It is about having been raised to have faith in and respect for members of the medical profession as experts with knowledge not available to the layman. Certainly, in the past (pre-Internet days), they had access to studies that the rest of us simply didn't.

Obviously, things are very different now, but the idealistic view of the doctor as well-educated, caring expert in the health of his/her patients is still part of our culture.

And many doctors are very harsh when you try to be proactive about your own health.

Again, your experiences do not mirror mine. I was raised to believe that staying healthy was my job, and doctors were only there if something was beyond my capabilities to repair (like broken bones). Nor do the majority of people I interact with feel as you do. Perhaps we choose which cultures to be a part of.

Any doctor that does not respect my opinion does not receive my business twice. Just like any other professional.

[sbj]

Hey, sbj, WHERE do you live? It does sound like your health care providers are absolutely awesome about giving info to patients. I have NEVER heard of anything like it, and hope that other doctors catch on soon. I live in Pittsburgh, where medical care is supposed to be state-of-the-art (teaching hospitals, medical schools, etc). When my hubby had a colonoscopy, he wasn't given any of the same info you were given, just a half sheet of instructions. When #1 son had open-heart surgery, I had to ASK what the risks were, and was only told of the possibility of infection. Vaccines--the only risks listed on the half sheet of paper were irritability, slight fever, and soreness/redness at site of injection.

Hope your teeth don't fall out!

Left coast, Southern California, Long Beach. Kaiser Permanente (not sure if link will work):

Open Original Shared Link

The MMR flyer that is handed out - see "When are mumps immunizations given" - is produced by the CDC. For the colonoscopy prep we even saw some videos and I was told there was the threat of DEATH . . . and again reminded right before the procedure.

I'm not trying to say that my experience is typical. But rest assured that such good service IS available.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Well, I can't say that I think that the MMR flyer was accurate--but at least it mentions that children have had severe reactions immediately following it!

[sbj]

Well, I can't say that I think that the MMR flyer was accurate--but at least it mentions that children have had severe reactions immediately following it!

I didn't figure you would say it was accurate! (There's no need to reopen the discussion about MMR vaccines - that was beside my point.) I think the important point here is that Kaiser does explain that there is a fear of an autism/MMR link (I don't believe the CDC flyer addresses it):

Open Original Shared Link

So although Kaiser (and most other medical professionals - let's be honest ) disagree with you, they are at least providing their customers with the information they need to make an informed decision.

[Fiddle-Faddle]

Again, your experiences do not mirror mine. I was raised to believe that staying healthy was my job, and doctors were only there if something was beyond my capabilities to repair (like broken bones). Nor do the majority of people I interact with feel as you do. Perhaps we choose which cultures to be a part of.

Now, that comes across as downright snotty. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here?

I don't recall ever saying that doctors are there to repair things that are within my capabilities to repair. In fact, I was raised to always question doctors, and to get second opinions whenever possible. The majority of people you interact with feel--what? What do you know about how I feel?

But for many of us, the years of doctors missing celiac symptoms didn't scream "malpractice!" No matter how much research I did, seemingly minor things like severe reflux, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, occasional rashes, and severe hyperemesis never indicated celiac by themselves, and the doctor who knew about the reflux didnt know about Hashimoto's, and vice versa. But all the doctors offered very convincing arguments for the medications to control the symptoms "(this is how we treat this, it's quite common, there are plenty of long-term studies on the meds, and it shouldn't have any long-term complications.").

So, I didn't have any broken bones, I asked questions, and I researched what I could, but I was still unable to have any "capability to repair my own health," to use your words, until very recently, when I discovered celiac and this board.

As far as choosing to be part of cultures, for those of us who are working parents, we are fairly limited to the people we interact with at work, at our children's schools, our neighbors, and our place of worship.

If you weren't raised to revere doctors, how can you have so little sympathy for those who WERE raised that way? In Asian cultures, a doctor is considered the profession most worthy of respect, because education is so highly valued, and doctors are considered the most educated of people. And Asian cultures are non-confrontational. But even in "American" culture, the doctor is considered to be the expert by most people (and you should know by now that I'm not one of them). I can't begin to fault people for accepting and not questioning what they are told by their doctors, if they've never been exposed to any other way. IF PEOPLE WEREN'T RAISED THE WAY YOU WERE, how can you expect them to react the way you do, and fault them for not doing so?

[Fiddle-Faddle]

So although Kaiser (and most other medical professionals - let's be honest ) disagree with you, they are at least providing their customers with the information they need to make an informed decision.

No, they are not mentioning that the MMR has been determined in two separate cases to have caused autims (Hannah Poling and Bayley Banks) (Open Original Shared Link)

They are also implying that "experts" have never considered that the MMR caused autism, and that's not true, either. There ARE experts who think so, and experts who don't think so The "experts" don't agree with each other. But the wording implies that the experts agree that it is extremely unlikely.

So if the document is written so that the implications are DEFINITELY leaning to the side o f "vaccines are safe," then the consumer isn't really making an informed decision.

I think that in order to make a truly informed decision, you would have to have both sides presented in their own words.

[sbj]

I think that in order to make a truly informed decision, you would have to have both sides presented in their own words.

I think that the only way you would be happy is if you yourself were permitted to have a discussion with each Kaiser Permanente patient in person and tell them of your own particular fears (backed up, of course, by sources that only you trust)! How exactly are they to present your side's view in their own words? Who represents your side? The obligation of Kaiser is to present medically/scientifically verifiable fact and appropriate cautions. They have done so. Period. Good for them - they've gone beyond the call of duty.

I don't think you are being reasonable. If you aren't happy with this level of info then you won't be happy with any level. You can't possibly expect Kaiser to present anecdotal coincidental information as causal evidence. Kaiser and most medical pros, courts, etc disagree with you, so why should they feel obligated to present a viewpoint that is not backed up with scientific testing or proof? Let's remember that the special US court chartered to look at MMR vaccine and autism found that the plaintiffs could not prove that the MMR caused autism.

AND, as I stated previously, I simply will not get into this discussion with you again, Fiddle - I'll not waste my time tilting at windmills. You are simply unpersuadable. We can just leave it at that.

[Jestgar]

Now, that comes across as downright snotty. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something here?

I only meant to emphasize that we all choose our frame of reference, and surround ourselves with people that have the same frame of reference. Your point was that "... the idealistic view of the doctor as well-educated, caring expert in the health of his/her patients is still part of our culture. " My point was that it's not a universally accepted cultural viewpoint. Within my culture, it's not the norm.

I don't recall ever saying that doctors are there to repair things that are within my capabilities to repair. In fact, I was raised to always question doctors, and to get second opinions whenever possible. The majority of people you interact with feel--what? What do you know about how I feel?

I wasn't addressing your views, only telling you mine.

But for many of us, the years of doctors missing celiac symptoms didn't scream "malpractice!" No matter how much research I did, seemingly minor things like severe reflux, Hashimoto's thyroiditis, occasional rashes, and severe hyperemesis never indicated celiac by themselves, and the doctor who knew about the reflux didnt know about Hashimoto's, and vice versa. But all the doctors offered very convincing arguments for the medications to control the symptoms "(this is how we treat this, it's quite common, there are plenty of long-term studies on the meds, and it shouldn't have any long-term complications.").

Doctors, or any profession, can only diagnose within their frame of reference. For years doctors have been told that Celiac is a childhood disease, that can be outgrown. It's unfair to expect a physician to be omniscient. This does NOT mean that we can't strive to improve their education so that future adult sufferers of celiac disease, or gluten intolerance can expect better service.

When you know better, you do better.

So, I didn't have any broken bones, I asked questions, and I researched what I could, but I was still unable to have any "capability to repair my own health," to use your words, until very recently, when I discovered celiac and this board.

so you did.

As far as choosing to be part of cultures, for those of us who are working parents, we are fairly limited to the people we interact with at work, at our children's schools, our neighbors, and our place of worship.

I'm not a parent. I have no comment on this.

If you weren't raised to revere doctors, how can you have so little sympathy for those who WERE raised that way? In Asian cultures, a doctor is considered the profession most worthy of respect, because education is so highly valued, and doctors are considered the most educated of people. And Asian cultures are non-confrontational. But even in "American" culture, the doctor is considered to be the expert by most people (and you should know by now that I'm not one of them). I can't begin to fault people for accepting and not questioning what they are told by their doctors, if they've never been exposed to any other way. IF PEOPLE WEREN'T RAISED THE WAY YOU WERE, how can you expect them to react the way you do, and fault them for not doing so?

I have never made any judgments towards people's beliefs. Nor have I ever said that my way is right, and anyone else's is wrong. All I've ever asked is that you support your statements, or else define them as opinion, not fact.

[rinne]

......You are simply unpersuadable. We can just leave it at that.

I feel just the same way, except it is towards you.

It's okay, time will tell the story.

I look around me and those who have chosen to trust the system and take the pills don't look so healthy to me, I suspect they won't live that long. I think eventually people will realize their responsibility and change their ways, already some are (many of us here ) and I figure the best thing I can do is get healthy and support others who want to get healthy.

I still wonder whether you think my sister was well served by her doctor?

I think we are raised to believe that doctors are there to help us if we are ill and that it is only when they fail us do we begin to realize that there agenda is shaped by those who profit from our illness, perhaps you do not question because they have not failed you.

[psawyer]

People, I have been following this discussion closely since its inception.

As moderator, it is my feeling that the discussion has run its course and has resulted in two sides with irreconcilable differences. I think that we should leave it at that and move on. Continuing what is quickly becoming an argument will not benefit any of us.

[sbj]

I still wonder whether you think my sister was well served by her doctor?

rinne: I was responding to Fiddle-Faddle.

Sorry, Peter - just saw your note. Singing off. SBJ. Peace. Out.

[mayfaire]

As moderator, it is my feeling that the discussion has run its course and has resulted in two sides with irreconcilable differences. I think that we should leave it at that and move on. Continuing what is quickly becoming an argument will not benefit any of us.