Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)

[AliB]

I've been absent for awhile as I'm very very busy. No time to catch up with all the posts, sorry.

Another possible breakthrough for me is the discovery of a remaining parasite. I had a lot of cleansing naturally happen after going on SCD where I saw a lot of horrible things. That has stopped for several months. My doctor recently discovered a test that is much more accurate, tests for the DNA of parasites. (Metamatrix test). It picked up strongyloides, and my doctor thinks it could be the cause of my flares of symptoms. I'm just finishing the week of treatment, so I'll see if it makes a difference.

On another forum, a person who has been on SCD for 5 years told me she has found return of C associated with detox. I am noticing some connection there, too. So I am doing whatever I can to aid with detox, and I take enough Oxy-mag to ensure I can at least have one BM daily. I am quite mercury toxic, so good detox is crucial for me if I hope to get better.

Hi Sherry - good to 'see' you.

I looked up Strongyloides - yuk! Where the heck would you have got that from??? From what I read on it it looks as though you may need several courses of treatment to remove it.

How are things going otherwise? Is your sewing going well? I am big into beading at the moment - I just love off-loom bead weaving and lace. I need to stop buying beads and start making more with what I have otherwise they will take over my house! I would love to do lampworking and make my own but have yet to branch into that area so just have to be content with using Fimo instead at the mo.

I have been researching digestive enzymes - I tried some before I had really looked into it enough and they have upset the apple cart again - they contained HCL and I think it was too much - they were also animal-based which I have read can cause problems, so I have found of some plant based ones without HCL and have just taken my first capsule with my lunch. Apparently the plant-based ones work better too - well, I suppose they would as we eat plants!

I am convinced that lack of enzymes is, and has been for years behind most if not all my health problems. Certainly the fact that I have always had issues with carbs would strongly indicate that. Some have issues with carbs, others with fats or protein or cellulose, etc., and some with all of them!

I will have to see how it goes. I am still trying to recover from the damage the last lot did, but I have more faith in these!

[rinne]

I came across a site recently about HCL and they said that even though it was made from beets you can't get the same benefit from eating beets, I disagree. They were selling HCL, naturally they would have me believe that I need their supplements. I eat freshly grated beets with lemon juice at least twice a day and it helps.

I have begun to wonder what any of them know about what is good and not good for me. I think about the testing for "diseases" and feel we have been programmed to mistake damage for disease. What do they diagnose in celiac, arthritis, crohn's, collitis? They diagnose damage and we are sick before there is damage.

These days I question everything.

By what scale do they measure anything?

One scale they use is studies they have done on tolerance levels. In one case they used pregnant women in prison to test the limits of iodine and discovered that there were no consequences to the babies born. Think about that. That study was in the United States. One study they did in China they removed iodine from a community's diet and discovered that it led to cretinism in babies. Iodine is essential to every cell in the body and I have come across those who feel that iodine deficiency is a contributing factor to the rising illness in society, particularly thyroid disease.

Why should I believe them? One week we are told this is good for us, the next that it is cancer causing, the next is ....and how are we left if we listen to them? Confused.

I say, sit down, sit still and get to know your body, or lay down and lay still and really listen although listening is not quite right, more to find away to get underneath the daily stream of this and that to a place where you can rest and from that place know/decide for yourself what is rotten and what is fresh.

[AliB]

I agree Rinne. I think a lot of this is about getting to know and understand your body.

I was talking to a friend of ours about - yes, enzymes, my favorite subject at the moment. He is a very intelligent man - an electrical engineer, but he had never looked into enzymes or what they do. But then neither had I until now. He was going to go off and do some investigation of his own. The only time that most people ever hear of enzymes is the ones in their washing powder!

You know, I believe very strongly in God. But the more I investigate my body and how it works the more in awe I am of how 'wonderfully I am made'. Every new thing I discover just has me more and more amazed at how complex we are and strengthens my faith and appreciation for him even deeper. Of course, things are not as they should be because man has meddled and fiddled and mucked it all up, yet even so, the power of the body to heal itself if we can support it in the right way, is amazing.

I kind of challenge you a bit on the damage thing though, I think that damage will be there right from the start - its just that it can't be seen. Celiac et al doesn't get picked up until the gut is in a very bad state of damage, but even a very low level of damage must surely impact on the body in some way.

If say a lot of our problems were down to a lack of enzymes then the body would not be able to process the food we eat properly. The enzyme lack could be triggered by anything - I am sure that for instance, pasteurisation has been a huge factor in the equation. As we rely so heavily on dairy yet none of it is supplying any of the enzymes that would help us digest it, that must have a big impact on us. Cooked food destroys them so that would add to it all. People with an enzyme impairment would then not have a good quota to pass on to their children and so it would go on down the line getting worse each time.

The enzyme impairment would mean that our food is not digested properly and the undigested food would undoubtedly encourage parasites and pathogenic microbial activity. The parasitic and microbial activity would eventually lead to actual physical inflammation and damage and as a consequence, malabsorption of nutrients.

If people can't digest gluten then it makes sense to me that it is because their bodies lack the enzymes, or even just one of them that would normally deal with it harmlessly - interestingly scientists have apparently been trying to develop an enzyme that will do just that and I have seen 'gluten enzyme' capsules on sale - how well they work I haven't a clue, but then what the scientists often forget is that a lot of these things have to work in conjunction with other elements and without those they are useless.

Apparently certain enzymes are dependent on B12 in order to complete certain functions within the body, but a lack of digestive enzymes could lead to low stomach acid and that could lead to a lack of intrinsic factor. I have just read that apparently Metformin (which I am on for the diabetes) can tie up calcium in the intestines which the B12 needs in order to be absorbed - now why hasn't my doctor routinely tested me for B12? Everything is dependent on something else and any lack in any area can impact somewhere.

Open Original Shared Link

I am sure though, well at least in my case, and quite likely in many others, the whole thing starts with a digestive enzyme deficiency.

[rinne]

I have begun to wonder what any of them know about what is good and not good for me. I think about the testing for "diseases" and feel we have been programmed to mistake damage for disease. What do they diagnose in celiac, arthritis, crohn's, collitis? They diagnose damage and we are sick before there is damage.

If this is what you were referring to then I think we agree, I think the problem is that the damage has to become visible to their tests, the damage is being done from the beginning. What I mean by we are sick before is damage is being done to us.

[Ms Jan]

Hi There,

Thanks to Ali and others for all the information on enzymes.

I've been wondering about something: It seems that the chicken soup is often too heavy for me to digest, at least unless I have it in only very small amounts at a time, and particularly not just before going to bed. And now I realized it's probably for a lack of digestive enzymes, since there is nothing raw in it. Will try to eat some greens or ginger before having the soup and see if it helps. Anyone else, having experienced this problem ?

(I generally take Rinne's line of trying to find foods that heal rather than tablets, but it's very interesting to understand the background better, also since it helps me make more informed choices ... ).

Jan

[wschmucks]

It sounds like a good assesment-- and i too would prefer to get enzymes from food instead of pills, but i know I cannot digest raw vegtables...its kind of a catch 22. I'm not healthy enough to eat the raw food, where the enzymes come from--partly because i dont have enough enzymes lol. If you can digest the raw food, go for it! Otherwise you might add a supplement until you can move up to the raw food. Also, soup tends to make me feel more full because of the liquid, maybe that could be adding to it too?

Let us know how the raw veggies go!

[AliB]

On a slightly different tack - I am going to go back to my doc in the morning and ask to be restested for Helicobacter.

I seem to be getting this stressed digestion every time I eat anything and it is driving me mad, especially at night when the pounding/throbbing heart thing that is linked to it is keeping me awake. I haven't had a decent night in over two weeks now and I am exhausted.

My first test for it a year or so ago when my digestion collapsed came back negative, but I have since read that getting a 'false negative' on that is quite common. There is the option of a breath test and I may ask for that this time instead.

I have a theory that, if it is HP, the extra Betaine HCL stomach acid in the Solgar digestive enzymes might just have triggered the little blighters into a frenzy of pumping out tons of urease to try and neutralise the acid or may have even triggered them into burrowing deeper into the stomach wall. My stomach is sore right through to my back (just stomach or maybe even my liver and/or pancreas?) and I keep getting loads of gas and bloating when I eat. Antacids, which I hate having to take, seem to be the only things which help calm it down a bit.

It just seems so strange that just taking the Enzymes triggered this off - there has to be a reason for it. The new lot of enzymes without HCL seem to be fine but the benefit is being clouded by the stomach issue.

If it does end up as HP then quite what I will do about it I am not sure. The common treatment is OAC - Omeprazole, Amoxicillin and Clarithromycin, but I so just do not want to go down the AB route if I can help it. I would not be at all surprised if I have had it for years if my test does come back positive.

I have been trawling the net for any natural remedies but have not found anything reliable. Garlic seems to be a good one, but I have tried eating raw garlic and it just burns my throat something awful - maybe the HP is in my mouth and the garlic is sending them into a frenzy in there too!

Apparently it is estimated that as many as 50% of the World's population carry it. I read too that it is in the tap water in some parts of the US, and I am sure that is true of a large part of the World including here in the UK too.

So - watch this space............

[chatycady]

I've not found anything in a pill that I don't react too. So I prefer food. I eat lots of fermented food. Such as green olives, sauerkraut, dill pickles and SCD yogurt. The enzymes in these foods are excellent for digestion.

Have you tried any of these foods instead of supplements? I eat A LOT of pickles and olives. You can do a web search and read about the digestive benefits of fermented food. BTVC also promotes them.

Just a thought.

I dip my dill pickles and olives, carrots, celery in yogurt cheese that I make. Add salt, dill weed, and chives to the cheese. It's a whole meal of enzymes and it tastes good too!

[GermanMia]

Ali,

the breathe test is the most reliable HP test, so really do that! I'm afraid I haven't heard of a working cure except the antibiotics - meanwhile it's even a triple antibiotic which is recommended because the other one seemed to fail in most cases. My naturopath friend himself had HP and did the quadruple treatment (three antibiotics and omeprazol). He was not happy at all, but after two horrible weeks he did better, and after he had rebuilt his gut flora he does fine now with everything except gluten. Maybe this is worth it.

[mftnchn]

mftnchn-- is the Oxy Magnesium SCD? I was going to switch types of magnesium to a citrate pill, I will look yours up and see whats in it.

Hi, I am using Sun Star Organics Oxy-Mag powder. My doc says it is SCD compliant, I'm looking on the bottle but don't see any ingredients listed except magnesium citrate.

Its pretty potent. 1/2 tsp is 642 mg of magnesium. I am using a teaspoon at bedtime, and I usually have loose stool in the morning with that. It isn't acidic so isn't too uncomfortable. Since I'm traveling and due to concerns about detox need to make sure I have a good daily elimination, I'm staying at that high level until I get back home and then will start cutting back.

This also helps dissolve the mucus plaque in the intestine. I know I have this because I see pieces of it coming through. SCD has had a real cleansing effect.

The alternating C and D may last for months, and yes, I think staying very low fiber is good for now. You obviously have intestinal motility issues, which I do as well. Try adding cooked fruit maybe. I don't handle raw--things get worse.

Sherry

[mftnchn]

I looked up Strongyloides - yuk! Where the heck would you have got that from??? From what I read on it it looks as though you may need several courses of treatment to remove it.

How are things going otherwise? Is your sewing going well?

Yes, I am concerned about getting rid of it too. I want my husband to get checked too. I highly recommend the Metamatrix intestinal ecology panel--that checks for DNA of parasites. I am sure this would never have been picked up without this test.

As celiacs, what I have read is that we are much more prone to parasites. We need to have this thoroughly checked in my opinion. SCD has helped clear a lot of mine but obviously not all.

Yep the sewing is coming along. 6 dresses are hanging in my closet, although all still have finishing work.

[mftnchn]

It sounds like a good assesment-- and i too would prefer to get enzymes from food instead of pills, but i know I cannot digest raw vegtables...its kind of a catch 22. I'm not healthy enough to eat the raw food, where the enzymes come from--partly because i dont have enough enzymes lol. If you can digest the raw food, go for it! Otherwise you might add a supplement until you can move up to the raw food. Also, soup tends to make me feel more full because of the liquid, maybe that could be adding to it too?

I've learned that some people don't handle carrots well, so that could be the issue with the soup.

I take prescription digestive enzymes, high doses. But I am noticing now that I have been able to cut back a lot without too much problem. I ran out even for several weeks and was mostly ok. So I know that I am healing on this diet. (7 plus months on SCD)

I believe that raw is great--if our digestion can cope with it. Mine can't yet, at least not much. I eat an occasional bite of raw fruit is all.

One person on another forum said that whenever she has a symptom flare she does a couple of days of broth and meat only. Every time she does this she finds she reaches a new level of healing as well as moving through the flare quicker.

Within the guidelines of SCD each of us has to experiment to figure out what works best. Elaine emphasized this. Her point was if a legal food isn't tolerated, wait and try it later.

[wschmucks]

Hi Everyone,

I was wondering if anyone had St Patrick's Day menu ideas? I was going to make the avocado buns (1 egg+ 1 avocad0, then bake like pancake--soo good!) with some home made corned beef.

I also was wondering if anyone has a favorite cake. It will be my birthdayin a few weeks (first one with Celiac) and I need a rich yummy cake I can make. Actually before my diagnosis when i was asked to eat wheat for the endoscopy-- I made my traditional birhtday cake (same one every year) knowing I'd never be able to eat it again. I ate the whole thing in 4 days :-).

Any ideas would be great!

[Ms Jan]

I also was wondering if anyone has a favorite cake. It will be my birthdayin a few weeks (first one with Celiac) and I need a rich yummy cake I can make. Actually before my diagnosis when i was asked to eat wheat for the endoscopy-- I made my traditional birhtday cake (same one every year) knowing I'd never be able to eat it again. I ate the whole thing in 4 days :-).

Any ideas would be great!

I'm avoiding all sweets these days, so I haven't tried it, but have you checked out the Nut Torte in Elaine Gottschall's book 'Breaking ...' ? It looks really wonderful, and you can make the fillings you'd like depending on what you're able to eat.

My soup-digestion problem is getting better if I eat some ginger and grape fruit, or a green pepper, just before having the soup. But I've realized that in any case, I should just eat a little of it at a time, then I'm fine (it's not due to the carrots, since I'm making it without carrots as I have an intolerance to them). Luckily I can otherwise eat almost all raw vegetables, and even non-sugary fruits such as kiwi and grape fruits. Despite their sweetness I do well with pine apples too, think it must be because they contain so many essential digestive enzymes. Anyone having similar experiences with pine apples?

Ali, as to the garlic, have you tried to swallow one or more spoon fulls of olive or flax seed oil right after taking it? To me it immediately does away with the burning in the throat, and I even feel it somehow enhances the effect of the garlic. And in order not to taste the garlic too much, I just take them spoon by spoon of finely chopped cloves, place them on my tongue and quickly wash them down with water. And then the oil ... I tried enzymes with HCL at some point, but they were also much too strong for my stomach. Now I make do with natural food enzymes - but I guess I'm lucky since I have no problems digesting raw greens.

Hope you find out about the HP - and find some workable enzymes.

Jan

[AliB]

Well, I am supposed to have another blood test for Helicobacter tomorrow - whether it will show up I haven't a clue, but the Doc did say that we could try a breath test if that comes back neg. Over here apparently the breath test is only used to determine if the Helicobacter has gone after treatment as the antibodies continue to show in the blood for at least 6 months after.

Interestingly I have been taking some raw garlic an hour or so before bed the last 2 days - it was hard going but I did it. You would have laughed! The first night - Tuesday, I tried cutting a little sliver off the garlic and chewing it before swallowing - it was so hot I grabbed a bottle of water that was on the table and took a good swig and immediately thought 'ugh, what the heck was that'?

When I looked at the bottle I realised I had only taken a big swig of dilute PVA that I had decanted into the empty bottle earlier whilst decorating! Ugh, ugh! Instead of putting it away I had left it on the kitchen table. I promptly went across to the sink and made myself throw up - I didn't know whether it was toxic or not - I didn't want it gluing up my insides! I drank loads of water and rang NHS Direct, but the nurse assured me it is of low toxicity thank goodness. Not sure which was worse tasting - the garlic or the PVA!

So then I had to eat more garlic to replace what I had thrown up!

Last night I courageously chomped on a whole corm and washed it down with some fruit smoothie - the olive oil is an idea Jan, but then I'm not a huge lover of that so I will have to think about that one.

The thing is though I slept well last night and my stomach felt much less stressed and as a consequence the pounding/throbbing thing was better - not gone but less obvious. Perhaps the garlic is attacking the 'Dracula' in my stomach!

I have been giving the Helicobacter thing some thought - I had been doing some research on Antoine Bechamp, a contemporary of Pasteur. Whilst Pasteur believed that all sickness in caused by 'germs' over which we have no control (so triggering off a multi-million dollar industry), Bechamp believed that whilst many microbes have the potential to become pathogenic, they only do that if our bodies are already in a sick state. If we are really healthy the microbes remain benign or even beneficial (no wonder the medical profession wanted to run with Pasteur - Bechamps' idea would have taken away their source of income!)

I suppose Candida is a case in point. It is apparently a normal part of gut flora. It only becomes a pathogen if our bodies and immune systems are weakened or undermined by other factors, like diet. Interestingly, apparently it is estimated that at least 40% of the world's population carry Helicobacter in their stomachs yet whilst it lives there quite happily in some people without causing any problems at all, in others it becomes a source of inflammation and infection. Both those factors makes me wonder if Bechamp might not just have been on the right track.

Healthy people just don't get sick. I was reading a little report in the 'Nourishing Traditions' book about this woman who took two rats and fed one on good wholesome food (Goodie) and the other junk - carbs mostly, pastries, pies, sweets and bread (Junkie). Whilst Goodie grew and prospered, Junkie fatigued easily, was thin and 14 weeks later was found dead in his cage. She then pointed out that many people are feeding their children a similar diet and indulging them with copious quantities of rubbish. It made me shudder.

On enzymes, the Higher Nature Supergest enzymes seem to be ok. They contain Malt Diastase but I seem to be able to cope with them ok. I have been taking them for 5 days and already I am beginning to lose weight - yay! 2 lbs gone already. Apparently they can also help those who need to gain it too, as they obviously support and improve nutrient absorption.

[Ms Jan]

Wow, that PVA drinking would have freaked me out as well !

Good it wasn't toxic ...

[wschmucks]

Question:

I am thinking about food for my flight to France in a few weeks. I know you arent allowed to take liquids on the plane. BUT do you think-- if i freeze some yogurt, I would be able to sneak it by security, because on the x-ray screen it will look like a solid? Then eat it when it defrosts? Is this ridiculous. I know there is other food to bring, and i will bring that as well-- but what are your thoughts?

[AliB]

As you have a medically diagnosed condition - ie. Celiac, I wonder if the same rules apply if you can show a valid reason for having the food with you? Do you have a Doc who could sign the SCD as a medical necessity?!!

I haven't flown for years so am out of touch with the current protocol so my input may be way off the wall.

I picked this page up on American Airlines luggage protocol and it does allow a small amount on non-solid foodstuff like soup, and presumably yogurt although you may need to check. If you have a genuine need - like your digestive problems and can't eat the food provided on the plane for any reason, there must be some kind of alternative allowance for you i would have thought.

Open Original Shared Link

Could you just take a pack of probiotics instead?

Makes me laugh that companies like Fage send the Total yogurt all around the World through freight, yet we are penalised for carting a pot of yogurt! You could always offer them some - if it is edible it is highly unlikely to be able to blow any one up!

[Ms Jan]

I travel all the time, also cross atlantic, and the security is very tight (which however bothersome I generally believe is a good thing ), but it's also a bit arbitrary. Like sometimes things like my nail scissors pass through, at other times they are confiscated. With liquids, generally you can max have 99ml per security plastic bag - and I can't remember the total maximum, but it isn't a lot. Sometimes I have experienced having a lotion of 100 ml being confiscated! The actual container isn't allowed to be more than those 99 ml, so even if the contents is less it doesn't help. Also, sometimes they require you to put liquid cosmetics like mascara and lip stick into those security bags, at other times they don't. As to food, water/drinks are always confiscated, so it doesn't help that it can be shown to be 'drinkable' on spot. But I've brought bananas, grape fruit etc without any problems. So you might just take the chance and bring a few 99 ml cups of frozen youghurt and see ...

But remember the liquids are added up - something that has made it impossible to bring a normal toilet bag with tooth paste, shampoo and all - so it's a bit of a balancing act.

If you want to be really sure, call your airline and ask them about the youghurt - also if a doctor's note would help.

Good luck.

[GermanMia]

Ali, what is PVA??? Sorry - at this point my English has come to it's end

But concerning the helicobacter: I just read that recently they do some new cure which is not antibiotic. Just caught a glimpse of it and sadly don't remember where. But maybe it's something from Australia?

[AliB]

Interesting Mia if there is a non-antibio remedy for Helicobacter. It is probably only a problem for me, if that is what it is, because my body is so out of balance and has been for a long time, but I am slowly getting there. The Betaine HCL episode was a bit of a setback but the garlic seems to be working. I had a corm earlier today and will have another one before I go to bed later. I am not aware of it, but my daughter can smell me coming a mile away! It is probably oozing out of my pores! As long as it takes loads of toxins with it I really don't mind........

PVA is Polyvinyl acetate - it is white glue, you know the stuff you can use for crafts or decorating or, well, many things. I had diluted some and painted a section of wall with it prior to plastering it, to give the plaster a good key and the bit that was left I tipped into an empty 500ml water bottle. There was about 5cm in the bottom of the bottle. As it was next to me on the table I was pretty much looking down on the bottle from the top so didn't notice that the 'water' was white! Duh!

There doesn't seem to have been any lasting effect thank goodness!

[GermanMia]

Uh - glue - yes, that's nasty to drink...

I don't know if it was this, but they seem to go back to bismut salt as a cure. I'll see if I can find it.

[AliB]

Sherry, whilst looking for references to Helicobacter and Garlic I picked up this article which mentions that garlic has been used with good success against Strongyloides. Thought you might find it of interest.

Open Original Shared Link

It also mentions that it seems to work well against Candida, too and I am all for that!

I am up to 2 cloves today. I had one sliced up in a little Hoummous (I know, but it is a good carrier for the garlic) this morning and another one an hour before bed. I have also taken a couple of capsules each time with it. I am sure the fresh garlic is far more beneficial but the capsules added to it must help and maybe the fresh helps to make the capsules more active.

Not sure I could ever get used to it. I am not a lover of hot, spicy things anyway so it eating it raw does not sit well with me but I am at least giving it a go.

[dtgirl]

hello! I hope you do not mind me "joining in". Thank you so much for this information; I have read and learned SO much! My whole life (I am 23) I have suffered from major C, bloating, strange food reactions, everything and NO ONE has ever understood or they think I am making it up or it is all in my head. I have bad C, and contrary to what most people believe, fiber makes it much worse. If I eat an apple, I get extremely bloated, retain fluid, and will go not have a BM for a few days, even if I drink a few liters of water. Additionally, if I eat offending foods, I get this "binge" like behavior where i feel like I "must" have the food or else! is that weird? The less veg and fruit and starch in my system, the better off I am. Unfortunately, my diet right now is pretty limited: buffalo, elk, venison, salmon, ostrich, a little tuna, oils, zucchini, avocado, some goat products, a little bit of low fructose fruit. I can't eat nuts, soy, gluten, beans, the usual suspects. I have had many random other problems (hormonal imbalance, chronic low grade depression, hair thinning, dry skin, sleep issues..) my gi system hates me. Anyways, I look forward to reading and learning more.. this is a very informative thread!

[Ms Jan]

Additionally, if I eat offending foods, I get this "binge" like behavior where i feel like I "must" have the food or else! is that weird? The less veg and fruit and starch in my system, the better off I am.

Hey dtgirl,

Welcome - yes, there're some really knowledgable people on this thread. I'm learning all the time as well.

As other people have said before here, we're all different and have to adapt the diet to our individual situations, in order to allow for healing by not putting stress on our digestive systems for a very long period of time until we can gradually introduce more foods.

As to binge behavior, I become addicted within a day of having sugar/carb's, just craving more and more of exactly what I cannot tolerate. Am not sure if it's the candida or other bugs flaring up and demanding more of the stuff they thrive on, but it's such an irresistable craving that for me it's much easier to just never touch those foods. I've found that even the nutmeal dishes or the honey of the SCD diet have the same effect on me, so for the moment I'm staying away from all of these (even the SCD pizza that I loved the one time I'd made it - immediately just wanted more and more and more ...). One thing I have learned is that it's a sure sign that I must stay away from something, when that something sets off a craving ...

Ali - considering your tastes, it's so courageous of you to throw yourself into the raw garlic eating ! Glad it's having a positive effect. It works wonders for me too. And thanks for the link, interesting. Might substitute with capsules on days when I have to be 'sociable' - so far I've just taken totally different things, like grape fruit seed extract. Btw, A few weeks ago I started taking Caprylic Acid against the candida, and it seems to be working amazingly well. Seems to be just right for the strain I'm having at least - and at last! I'm really getting better these days !

Jan