Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)

[pele]

I understand where you are coming from, but I do think that some of Elaine's points are justified. I think she tends to err on the side of caution at times like with the canned tomatoes. Most probably don't contain anything they shouldn't, but it comes down to the processed thing - you know what is in a fresh tomato, you can't guarantee what is in a tin of them! (And not everyone may be astute enough to figure it out for themselves, if you know what I mean!)

Fresh short sprouted mung beans are ok but once they have grown into those long sprouts that are used in stir-fries, they can cause problems. I don't cope with them very well. I did read somewhere why not to use them but I can't find it! The site does say that Aspartame is illegal although no more than one drink or food with it is allowed per week once healed.

Tamari is made from soy and her site does state why it, and other soy products should be avoided. Chocolate can be a problem for some - I am not coping with it very well at all. I have been eating the very bitter dairy-free choc but am still getting problems. I suspect it is yet another food that is feeding rogue bacteria somewhere in my body. I love it, but it doesn't love me. It is also pretty high in copper - it is possible that may end up encouraging the imbalance - I did read that certain bacteria thrive in a higher copper environment.

The 24 hour yogurt culture is more about logic that science. The point of culturing it for that length of time is that a) unlike the short culturing of the commercial yogurt (6 - 8 hours) most, if not all of the lactose is digested by the bacteria, making the yogurt much more tolerable for those with lactose intolerance and the quantity of the bacteria will be much higher in the long culturing than in the short stint that the commercial yogurts are given, making it far more beneficial for us.

Hope this helps.

Ali

Thanks for the reply. Most of what you say is either in the book or on the website. My beef is that no scientific evidence is given to support much of this conjecture. I accept the basic premise of the diet--monosaccarides that are easy to digest and will not leave behind leftovers to feed the bad bugs, but many things in the book and on the website either veer away from this or are clearly stated to be based on feelings, not lab analysis.

[redwriter1]

Excuse me............ I would just like to ask the question about the yogurt.

You say it's based more on common sense then science.

what the heck does that mean?

Science is better than common sense? I thought science and common sense were the same thing??

Is that like saying.. "just because it works.. doesn't mean it works unless science says it does"?

And there is plenty of science behind the yogurt/good bacteria "theory".

Considering all the drugs Dr's pump down our throats based on SCIENCE.. and they DON'T work.......

I tend to error on the side of what "does" work.

Noone is going to do a study of the effects of homemade yogurt because there is no money to be made.

There is not drug company offering you a pill to fix everything.

Let's wake up people.............. what you put in your body.. changes things......

I don't need a study to tell me that.

It's just a FACT.

[AliB]

Excuse me............ I would just like to ask the question about the yogurt.

You say it's based more on common sense then science. What the heck does that mean?

Science is better than common sense? I thought science and common sense were the same thing??

Is that like saying.. "just because it works.. doesn't mean it works unless science says it does"?

And there is plenty of science behind the yogurt/good bacteria "theory".

Considering all the drugs Dr's pump down our throats based on SCIENCE.. and they DON'T work.......

I tend to error on the side of what "does" work.

No-one is going to do a study of the effects of homemade yogurt because there is no money to be made.

There is not drug company offering you a pill to fix everything.

Let's wake up people.............. what you put in your body.. changes things......

I don't need a study to tell me that.

It's just a FACT.

I was answering Pele's comment where she was wanting scientific evidence to support the 24-hour 'theory'. I was just pointing out that in this case, logic is just as good as you don't need scientific evidence - you can work out for yourself why the 24 hour is better than the short fermentation of the commercial yogurts.

The trouble with scientific 'evidence' is that whilst it may be accepted as truth at any given time, so often it ends up being outdated as newer 'evidence' is found. How many times do we hear about these 'wonderful breakthroughs' in science only for them to die a death and never be heard of again!? 'Scuse me for being so skeptical, but I have seen enough damage and mayhem caused by the Medical establishment and the Scientific community to last a lifetime.

The trouble is that they think they know everything when in fact, they know hardly anything at all! If they did know it all, none of us would be sick! In many cases, Common sense and logic is a darn sight better than science! Science's track record has it focusing so hard on one aspect that it misses the bigger picture, and thus the whole point. Because everything is symbiotic - every part of the body works together with everything else, you can't just focus on the one thing - you have to look at the whole shebang.

As someone pointed out - if your plant has yellow leaves, you don't paint them green to make them look better, you have to figure out what is wrong then treat the whole plant - water it, feed it, or even change the soil if necessary. We are the same. Science, particularly medical science, just paints the leaves, they don't address the root of the problem ('scuse the pun!). Oh yes, and how many times are your plants sick because they have a parasite.....?......hmmm........that's touching on a different thread.............

Now look what you've done 'redwriter' - you've got me going again!

You're right - it's a trial and error thing generally, but is often a case of finding out what works, unless you happen to be one of those rare souls who has found, and is able to afford support from people who have some modicum of sensible understanding. Even then it is a very hit and miss affair - you can spend an awful lot of money and time trying to find them and end up being given an awful lot of crap (and very expensive) advice on the way. So far, from what I have seen and experienced, apart from Almighty God, I am the only one I can truly trust to help myself!

[mftnchn]

Sometimes experience precedes science and sometimes science precedes experience. I appreciate having a practitioner that blends both well.

For me it seems easier to follow the book, then when/if I am well, experiement beyond that. I don't have the time and energy to research each food, but am interested if someone else finds that data.

[redwriter1]

Ali, you sound very much like me. Would love to instant message some time to compare histories.

Kay-lynn

[pele]

You guys are funny--and wonderful. I've been wondering for the past 24 hours if someone would challenge me on the feelings vs. science thing.

I think we are all at the point here where we are often better off trusting our feelings than listening to "science". Kay's point about doctor-prescribed drugs is excellent.

But back to the yogurt--what evidence is there to support the 24 hour lactose theory? In a post several months ago I reported talking to Nancy's Yogurt customer service rep. They are in the same neighborhood as a well known MD who prescribes the SCD and get many inquiries about this. They HAVE done their own research studying the amounts of lactose and lactase at various stages of fermentation and said they could not support the theory promoted in BTVC. So where is the research in favor? Would some of you please call your friendly neighborhood yogurt experts on this?

Okay, Im going to shut up about yogurt now. I'm really just jealous because eating dairy gives me brain fog.

[redwriter1]

Pele:

First, thanks for mentioning my name........I'm flattered.

I would sure like to see their "study" about the yogurt. Because it's not about the lactose.. it's about allowing 24 hours for billions of good bacteria to go into turbo mode.. as it were.

Did they test for how many good bacteria were in 24 hour yogurt vs. 4 hour yogurt? I've never heard of Nancy's yogurt... is that a company?

Kay

You guys are funny--and wonderful. I've been wondering for the past 24 hours if someone would challenge me on the feelings vs. science thing.

I think we are all at the point here where we are often better off trusting our feelings than listening to "science". Kay's point about doctor-prescribed drugs is excellent.

But back to the yogurt--what evidence is there to support the 24 hour lactose theory? In a post several months ago I reported talking to Nancy's Yogurt customer service rep. They are in the same neighborhood as a well known MD who prescribes the SCD and get many inquiries about this. They HAVE done their own research studying the amounts of lactose and lactase at various stages of fermentation and said they could not support the theory promoted in BTVC. So where is the research in favor? Would some of you please call your friendly neighborhood yogurt experts on this?

Okay, Im going to shut up about yogurt now. I'm really just jealous because eating dairy gives me brain fog.

[feelingbetter]

I hate to change the topic but feel the need to share. I have cheated on the diet for the last 5 days in a row. I had some Thai food because we were in the city. The next day I had mashed potatoes at my in-lawa. The third day I made some homemade coconut icecream for my son. I ate plenty of that. The fourth I had a few fries and the fifth I ate rice with more local Thai food. It seemed that once I introduced these foods again I am hungry all the time. All I want to do is eat.

Today I feel disgusting and depressed. I have been having lots of anxiety. I have also gained 3 lbs and have severe brain fog. I was so dedicated to SCD for the past 4 months. So today will hopefully be 100% SCD legal. I really am so addicted to complex carbs.

Before this cheating spree I felt fabulous. Maybe I was feeling too good and thought a little of this and that wouldn't hurt. My hubby cheated right along with me and has felt just as terrible.

I am going to take some oil of oregano to kill off some of this bacteria.

I am so happy this thread is alive and well.

[mftnchn]

Maybe sometimes we need reminders of just how bad things were before...to stick with our new commitments.

Hope you feel better soon.

So far I am very pleased with how much better I am on SCD. I'm not ready to risk it yet!

On the yogurt, my doctor told me that the bacteria exponentially increase every few hours, I forgot how many hours. So he was suggesting I culture longer; this was before SCD, he was just trying to get more good bacteria in because I have been on antibiotics and antifungals for so long treating lyme. He also told me now many organisms to shoot for in terms of benefit but I don't have the numbers in my head.

My thought is that Nancy's research is probably sound but there would be many variables like what type of organisms, the temperature, the milk, etc.

I asked him about why it was recommended on SCD to use new starter every time, he said because the organisms do mutate. But he doesn't think it necessary, just use new starter when the quality starts to go down.

Perhaps the longer time isn't necessary always but could be if the variables were different so 24 hours is safe side to use up the lactose, maybe.

Nancy's contains some organisms not recommended too, maybe the organisms make a difference. My doctor says to use just acidophilus.

[pele]

I hate to change the topic but feel the need to share. I have cheated on the diet for the last 5 days in a row.

I really am so addicted to complex carbs.

I am so happy this thread is alive and well.

This thread is getting so big, sometimes I think we could have threads within threads.

I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'll bet a couple of days back on the diet clear things up.

I am reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food, a book I highly recommend. The book is about the "Western diet" of refined carbs and low fat. He calls prcessed food "foodlike substances".

Anyway, he explained that modern food (including grains) is processed to deliver maximum glucose to the brain in the shortest possible time, setting the body up for a jolt followed by hunger. He calls soy, corn, rice and wheat cheap crops that deliver big calories with almost no nutrition.

This book really makes me realize we are on the right track here with the SCD, and the minor points about eating an occasional yam or parsnip do not matter. The important thing is we are NOT eating processed food, but instead 100% of the food we eat is packed with nutrients and is the kind of food our bodies evolved to eat.

[redwriter1]

Pele........... I am certainly going to get that book! Thanks!

I think another book you would find very interesting is Survival of the Sickest: A Medical Maverick Discovers Why We Need Disease.

I've read it once and then loaned it to someone, but i have ordered from Amazon again. I know you will really enjoy this book.!

Kay

This thread is getting so big, sometimes I think we could have threads within threads.

I'm sorry you are feeling bad. I'll bet a couple of days back on the diet clear things up.

I am reading Michael Pollan's In Defense of Food, a book I highly recommend. The book is about the "Western diet" of refined carbs and low fat. He calls prcessed food "foodlike substances".

Anyway, he explained that modern food (including grains) is processed to deliver maximum glucose to the brain in the shortest possible time, setting the body up for a jolt followed by hunger. He calls soy, corn, rice and wheat cheap crops that deliver big calories with almost no nutrition.

This book really makes me realize we are on the right track here with the SCD, and the minor points about eating an occasional yam or parsnip do not matter. The important thing is we are NOT eating processed food, but instead 100% of the food we eat is packed with nutrients and is the kind of food our bodies evolved to eat.

[AliB]

I hate to change the topic but feel the need to share. I have cheated on the diet for the last 5 days in a row. I had some Thai food because we were in the city. The next day I had mashed potatoes at my in-lawa. The third day I made some homemade coconut icecream for my son. I ate plenty of that. The fourth I had a few fries and the fifth I ate rice with more local Thai food. It seemed that once I introduced these foods again I am hungry all the time. All I want to do is eat.

You're not changing the topic - it's about the SCD, ON and OFF and how we cope.

I think what you have gone through (and we've all been there) is kind of like when smokers who are on the wagon take a few puffs - then they can't stop - the same with alcoholics. We are Carboholics! It goes back to my other 'bacteria' thread - I suspect it is down to rogue bacteria or parasites again. When we stop eating or drinking the stuff they feed on, they die down and become fairly inert because we are depriving them of their food source. As soon as we ingest some of their food source they go mad and start pushing out copious amounts of certain toxins as they digest it and it is those that make us feel so lousy.

For those of us who have problems with carb digestion, the carbs get digested instead by rogue bacteria. A by-product of that incomplete digestion is fermentation by the bacteria creating gas and bloating and more importantly, alcohol and its by-product acetaldehyde (hence recorded situations of people being drunk without ever having had any alcohol). We then end up feeling lousy and 'hungover'. It is suspected that the very toxic acetaldehyde may actually play a big part in a lot of our 'Western' diseases.

Acetaldehyde would normally be converted to harmless acetic acid, but many have a weakened enzyme capacity (also possibly due to bacterial activity) which impairs this function. The gut damage mean that those poor little enterocytes on the villi don't form properly so can't function properly to give us an effective digestive system, Not until the process has healed and our gut flora is properly balanced, can it all work properly.

That is why so many of us find the SCD so beneficial, because generally it limits the carbs to those our bodies CAN cope with plus it gives us a good source of beneficial bacteria.

Pele, as regards the lactose thing, I haven't a clue whether there is any scientific evidence, all I know is my body copes better with the long fermented yogurt than the commercial stuff. As I am lactose intolerant, that suggests to me that there ain't much lactose in it! It seems that, for those who are casein intolerant, the fermentation changes the structure of the casein too, making that better metabolised by the body. The following is an interesting page......

Open Original Shared Link

Hi Kay-Lynn, welcome to the thread (unless I missed you earlier!). Mmm, my opinions get me into trouble sometimes! You're welcome to compare notes anytime!

[pele]

You're not changing the topic - it's about the SCD, ON and OFF and how we cope.

Pele, as regards the lactose thing, I haven't a clue whether there is any scientific evidence, all I know is my body copes better with the long fermented yogurt than the commercial stuff. As I am lactose intolerant, that suggests to me that there ain't much lactose in it! It seems that, for those who are casein intolerant, the fermentation changes the structure of the casein too, making that better metabolised by the body. The following is an interesting page......

Open Original Shared Link

Thanks, Ali

I had some butter and it didn't bother me, and it sure tasted good.

In "Defense of Food" Pollan mentions that feeding grain to cattle makes them sick and changes the milk and meat. I would like to find some milk from grass-fed cows. Might have to buy my own cow.

[AliB]

I'm sure you're right about feeding grain to cattle - add to that all the disgusting stuff that passes for 'cattle feed' as well (processed bits of other animals - no wonder we have had a problem over here with BSE - cattle are herbivores, they aren't meant to eat other animals! Yuk.

The same applies to other animals too, dog and cat food predominantly contains wheat and other carbohydrate, they too are carnivorous. The only animals that are designed to eat grains are rodents and birds.

No wonder we and this world are in such a mess....................

[pele]

Ali

I have a gut bacteria question for you. I have been told that you don't eat any dairy, then you need non-lactose-eating probiotics. Do you know anything about this? If I take the kind od probiotics that live off dairy then don't eat dairy, won't the bacteria starve to death in my intestines? What are dairy probios called? What are non-dairy ones called, and what do they live on?

[AliB]

Ali

I have a gut bacteria question for you. I have been told that you don't eat any dairy, then you need non-lactose-eating probiotics. Do you know anything about this? If I take the kind od probiotics that live off dairy then don't eat dairy, won't the bacteria starve to death in my intestines? What are dairy probios called? What are non-dairy ones called, and what do they live on?

Hmm. that's an interesting one - I'll have to do a bit more research and get back to you on that one. I hadn't thought of that. It may be an issue, but it also might not. I have to say that my logic would think that if all it takes to cope with dairy is to take probiotics then I shouldn't have a problem with it at all, but I do - the smallest amount of milk bungs me up something awful.

[mftnchn]

Ali, are you using dairy in the SCD yogurt? You mention it in your signature, I'm just not remembering what you said about it in the posts.

[AliB]

It seems that there are over 120 types of Lactobacillus bacteria. They are present in a lot of foods, particularly fermented foods. They work by converting sugar into lactic acid which makes the environment acid which in itself helps to control the rogue bacteria. Although some are present in raw milk, like L. casei, the pasteurisation process that is designed to destroy bad bacteria undoubtedly destroys the lactobacillus varieties too - the very ones that should be there to enable us to digest the blasted stuff! (No wonder so many are dairy intolerant, we never get any 'top-up'!).

There are many strains present in and on other foods - sauerkraut is fermented by lactobacillus on the cabbage leaves. They are not all produced by or only confined to dairy. Any heated milk would destroy the bacteria, but if we had raw milk, the odd times we would drink heated milk would not affect the bacterial level in our guts. Having pasteurised milk all the time does nothing to replenish our depleted gut flora. Yes there may always be a slight element of risk involved in having raw milk, but the health issues and damage caused by constantly having 'dead' milk is much worse and far more far-reaching!

They will not die from not having any dairy. Eating yogurt is preferable to just taking capsules, as there are at least some dairy influences in the yogurt to help feed the lactobacillus strains that need that. Taking the L strains helps the gut to heal so that it can then start to produce the enzymes needed to digest lactose. If it wasn't the case, then those who are dairy-free apart from the yogurt would not get any benefit at all, and it does seem that yogurt can be made from other substances, like almond milk and coconut milk, so it is the sugar that the bacteria needs, not the milk.

[AliB]

Ali, are you using dairy in the SCD yogurt? You mention it in your signature, I'm just not remembering what you said about it in the posts.

Yes, I make my yogurt with ordinary pasteurised milk. Although I would prefer raw I can't get hold of it. With the yogurt making process the milk has to be heated to virtually boiling anyway, which would negate the raw milk, to destroy any 'baddies' and the other strains are then introduced from the commercial yogurt or probiotic capsules.

The lactobacillus converts most, if not all of the lactose to lactic acid and L.casei converts the casein into a more assimilable product.

I suspect when it is made in Outer Mongolia or wherever, they don't bother to boil it - just use the fresh raw warm milk straight from the goat which already contains the vital bacteria and just pop it into a nice warm spot to culture!

[AliB]

Pele, just out of interest I emailed Body Ecology who run a similar diet to the SCD and uphold a lot of the work done by Natasha Campbell-McBride, about probiotics and dairy - this is the reply I received.........

Alison,

The beneficial bacteria found in probiotic liquids is generally grown on

dairy so that it may thrive in the intestines, so since it is already alive

and active, it will not need additional dairy to feed on. We don't

recommend dairy, unless it has been fermented to make kefir, so most of our

customers more than likely are in a similar situation as you. This will

also hold true for probiotic capsules and bacteria starters. Thank you for

your interest in Body Ecology.

Kind regards,

Kyle

Logically the same would be true of yogurt as the bacteria are obviously grown in dairy to make that.

[mftnchn]

Oh I became so very ill today! I came back to Asia (I work here) in the last several days, made my goat milk yogurt with Kirkman lactobacillus acidophilus (SCD safe), added a little honey and drank a cup for breakfast today. This is something I have been having regularly in the USA.

Immediate reaction and very ill all day. Now I have to trace each component to see what the problem is. Obviously all the sources are different than what I was using in the USA and it was the first time to use the Kirkman. I was just using Nancy's yogurt before for starter.

Very discouraging since I have been doing very well on the diet until now.

[feelingbetter]

Mftnchn sorry to hear of your setback. I am finally feeling normal after 7 days of ultra strict SCD. It was so discouraging to get sick after feeling so good.

I am wondering now if I will ever be able to eat rice products again. Maybe I really am grain intolerant.

I would love to hear from anyone who has had to remain on the SCD permanently.

[mftnchn]

I know what you mean. I do have a glimmer of hope that I realized this morning. I *think* I gave my mold allergy shot around the same time, and this reaction would be typical for that. I could very well suddenly not be able to handle the shot--its happened many times before with my shots, and this year especially.

So I will still test the components of my yogurt separately but am also going to take steps to check my shot serum.

I've also wondered if the SCD might be permanent for me. At my age, if I have had celiac all my life maybe I won't completely recover. However, after struggling so long, if the diet keeps me feeling well and able to do everything I want, I think I will be able to accept it.

[AliB]

I just posted on another thread about being on the SCD permanently (Gluten Intolerance and Behavior section). We kind of have a mind-set problem. I think a lot feel that it is a bit of a punishment!

We are drowning in mountains of rubbish that passes for food. We are absolutely surrounded by copious amounts of 'dead' food. It is everywhere we go, it is served up in cafes and restaurants, it is eaten by everyone around us, the shops and stores are full of it. When we can't have it we feel deprived.

If our car runs on diesel, we need to fuel it with good pure diesel. Inferior quality adulterated or watered-down fuel will result in our car becoming sick - why can we not see the same principle when it comes to ourselves?

We really need to look at what the SCD is. It is healthy eating. It is returning to basic, good, wholesome food. It is getting back to what is the most beneficial thing we can do for our bodies.

If we constantly eat 'dead' food, how can we expect to have vital, vibrant bodies?

It has been well-documented that certain previously healthy communities who have adopted our 'Western' lifestyle and diet, have ended up adopting our 'Western' diseases, too. Maybe the change to the carb-laden 'Western' diet draws out the genetic weaknesses that were kept under control by their previously healthy diet? Those communities that keep to a pretty healthy diet full of fresh fruit and vegetables, unadulterated, unchemicalised and unprocessed meat, fish and poultry generally do not suffer with anything like the health issues that we do.

We accept the 'Western' diet as the 'norm' because we know no different lifestyle. But the Norm is going in the wrong direction and we are getting sick because of it. I do believe that, whilst we have certain genetic weaknesses built in, those weaknesses are drawn out by our food choices.

We need to see and accept the SCD as a NORM. Those of us with intolerances, whether to gluten, or dairy, or soy, or corn or whatever, have these problems because our guts are not functioning properly. The only way to sort it out and heal it is to give our bodies the best source of vitality we can. If we can keep, for life, to a good healthy diet then it should set us up to be healthy, for life.

[pele]

Pele, just out of interest I emailed Body Ecology who run a similar diet to the SCD and uphold a lot of the work done by Natasha Campbell-McBride, about probiotics and dairy - this is the reply I received.........

Logically the same would be true of yogurt as the bacteria are obviously grown in dairy to make that.

Alison

Can we call you Alison now?

Thank you so much for checking this out. The info you posted about probiotics and dairy makes a lot of sense.