What Do You All Know About The Forks Over Knives Movie?

[Charli61]

Hope you let us know how you made out with the kids....?

[Luddie]

I've seen the movie. I agree the science seems sketchy! Yes, we are omnivores and should eat a variety of foods, including the offal of animals that people used to eat (not that I do)! It's a very extreme diet and in my humble opinion, dangerous. Talk to a nutritionist about it and see what she says!

[Ollie's Mom]

Technically, everyone posseses cancer cells, they just need to be "switched" on. However, the argument that meat causes it is waaaaay out in left field.

The heart thing? That is more of a greesy fatty foods than meat.

Not so sure I agree with the heart disease / high fat diet link. In fact, the data from the china study actually link heart disease to an increased level of consumption of grains (wheat and millet, not rice),and found no link to increases in fatty meat consumption and heart disease. Grain cconsumption was also linked with obesity.

In fact, heart disease and obesity began to rise in the western world *after* the "eat your healthy whole grains" diet was touted as being good for your health (a la food pyramid).

Anecdotally, I eat more fats (animal and plant based, little to no dairy) and am very thin and my blood work (cholesterol, etc) is always fine. More to the point, my husband, who used to eat lots AF grains and "low fat", has seen the weight come off and his blood work improve after starting to eat the food I prepare for him. And my sons are far from being fat despite a fat and grease heavy diet.

And no doctor or nutritionist I know would tell me to feed my family the way I am. But it works for us.

[Ollie's Mom]

That should be "of" not AF lol

[Luddie]

Not so sure I agree with the heart disease / high fat diet link. In fact, the data from the china study actually link heart disease to an increased level of consumption of grains (wheat and millet, not rice),and found no link to increases in fatty meat consumption and heart disease. Grain cconsumption was also linked with obesity.

In fact, heart disease and obesity began to rise in the western world *after* the "eat your healthy whole grains" diet was touted as being good for your health (a la food pyramid).

Anecdotally, I eat more fats (animal and plant based, little to no dairy) and am very thin and my blood work (cholesterol, etc) is always fine. More to the point, my husband, who used to eat lots AF grains and "low fat", has seen the weight come off and his blood work improve after starting to eat the food I prepare for him. And my sons are far from being fat despite a fat and grease heavy diet.

And no doctor or nutritionist I know would tell me to feed my family the way I am. But it works for us.

Hi Ollie's Mom,

You're right to point out that most nutritionists and doctors would not suggest a diet such as yours (or mine, which is very similar). I keep forgetting that my doc and his nutritionist are different! His practice teaches that heavy grain consumption and the use of vegetable oils in cooking are not good ways to maintain health. I, too, have excellent cholesterol numbers and I don't shy away from animal fat. In fact, I drink a small glass of half and half with breakfast (no milk right now) and make certain it's the best half and half I can find! My doctor also feels that butter, lard and olive oil (in moderation) is the only palette of choices. Because I've been changing my diet for the past several years I've become very aware of what is written in the news media and what passes as scientific. Some years ago I heard or read an article about why

saturated (animal) fat got such a bad name and it boiled down to the fact that there were some very powerful interests in the food industry AND in the scientific field that wanted to push the consumption of vegetable oils (early in the last century). The scientists who pushed this were very influential in that they were the "elders" who actually reviewed other budding scientist's research projects (mostly governmental research projects such as NIH). Of course, they were going to lean towards recommending funding for "science" that supported their own viewpoints and deny those that might be contradictory. So, it was perpetuated for a long, long time. I do think that there has been some easing but mainly by what could be called "a fringe medical community" of doctors and nutritionists who started looking at the evidence of their patient's diets and made a change. Also, each of us is a unique individual with unique heritages, so one approach doesn't necessarily fit all of us! Feeling good and having blood tests that show a healthy pattern are probably the best way to know what suits each of us. I tried vegetarianism for a while and didn't realize how bad I was feeling but that was me.

Sorry this is so long, but I'm passionate about being careful about eating.

[Ollie's Mom]

Trust me, I'm passionate about it too. A very dear friend of mine was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and was telling me that the nutritionist at the diabetes clinic told him to load up on whole grain carbs. I flipped out! I couldn't believe it!! After much harping and prodding on my part, he agreed to go very carb light. He ended up not needed as much insulin, losing weight, and feeling better. His blood sugar levels stabilized - no more peaks or valleys. And you know what the diabetes doc and nutritionist said?? That he was putting himself at risk by not following their high carb, whole grain diet. In spite of Hus numbers being better.

Now he just lies to them about what he's eating.

Sigh. It's really scary, when you think about it.

[Luddie]

Trust me, I'm passionate about it too. A very dear friend of mine was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and was telling me that the nutritionist at the diabetes clinic told him to load up on whole grain carbs. I flipped out! I couldn't believe it!! After much harping and prodding on my part, he agreed to go very carb light. He ended up not needed as much insulin, losing weight, and feeling better. His blood sugar levels stabilized - no more peaks or valleys. And you know what the diabetes doc and nutritionist said?? That he was putting himself at risk by not following their high carb, whole grain diet. In spite of Hus numbers being better.

Now he just lies to them about what he's eating.

Sigh. It's really scary, when you think about it.

Several years ago I read a book by an endocrinologist from California named Diana Schwarzbein. She has an interesting personal history and she got interested in endocrinology and thought she would be involved in esoteric, exotic diseases but after graduation, landed a job at a diabetes clinic (if I recall correctly). She worked there for some time and was eventually intrigued and dismayed by the fact that many if not all of her patients (type II diabetics) were not getting better even though they were trying to follow their previous doctors orders. I can't possibly relate her discoveries here, but it will be worth the time of anyone who is interested to get her book out of the library (The Schwarzbein Principle) and read that first chapter. What an eye opener! She made logical, intelligent, out-of-the-box observations and came up with some stunning breakthroughs. I'd be interested to know what anyone who reads this book thinks. I know it is a bit out of date (1999) but she is still far ahead of a lot of so-called experts!

[GottaSki]

Thank you Luddie- I have not read this book and appreciate the suggestion of a good read

[JNBunnie1]

I've been very intrigued with the research of Weston Price since I started studying nutrition while

I was sick (with Celiac) 8 years ago. Basically, virtually any traditional diet is better than the modern

American diet.

Based on his research I told my mother, who was gaining weight rapidly on an 800 calorie-a-day

diet of chicken and salad, to cut the crap, and eat some fat. She eats cow and whole organic yogurt

and butter and avocados and olive oil and has been losing weight steadily ever since, two years ago.

For myself, I have to carefully monitor the amount of protein and fat I get in my diet or I drop weight

like crazy. I skip fats and meats for a day and my brain shuts down. Like many on the board, we really

just have to do what makes us feel best.

[GFinDC]

Vegetarianism is one of the end times signs. Fun fun!

I think one problem for many vegetarians is eating too much soy. There are all kinds of soy based foods in the grocery stores now a days. And soy is not real good for people IMHO.

[dreacakes]

That movie is vegan propaganda, pure and simple.

And this is coming from someone who was vegan for years.

PLEASE convince your husband to do more research before jumping into such an extreme diet. Don't just believe what a movie tells you! I wish I had done so. I have permanent health problems from nutrient deficiencies. (I'm actually convalescing right now because I have the spine of a 70 year old... at the age of 33. Not actually uncommon for long-term vegans.)

So for a balanced perspective, you could show your hubby this very intelligent review of the movie, and a video clip I included by another ex-vegan named Lierre Kieth who wrote a book called The Vegetarian Myth.

Review that debunks the "science" in Forks Over Knives:

Open Original Shared Link

The Vegetarian Myth:

[cavernio]

I've read the claim that vegans can get enough b12 from whatever bacteria animals get the b12 from, that the microorganisms in the gut can adapt to getting enough or something. Also foods like nutritional yeast have b12. In any case, just because you have to supplement b12 or other vitamins if you choose to be vegan, doesn't mean you have to eat meat to be healthy.

On a completely different note, I have heard about increased protein intake (not just meat protein) being linked to dying earlier. (Rather, decreased protein intake prevents things like cancer and heart attacks.) I heard about it from a documentary about fasting that talked to researchers who are trying to figure out why fasting or calorie restriction makes people (and other animals) live longer.

Open Original Shared Link

In a nutshell, if you don't eat a lot or don't eat a lot of protein, your body will switch from creating tissue to repairing tissue. Obviously cancer is cell creation gone out of control, but repairing tissue can also reduce blood pressure as arteries heal, so less likely to get a heart attack or stroke. All main causes of death in our society.

There's a fair bit of proper research out there regarding igf-1. Just a few hits from googlescholar. The 2nd link is actually readable :-p

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Open Original Shared Link

Regardless, I personally think it's unwise to go vegan because it's healthier. If they want to because of ethical reasons or they feel like they're making less of an ecological impact, that's a totally separate reason.

The more I hear about food and what to eat and what not to eat and x causes this good thing but y bad thing, (like, say, brown rice with its high lectin content which is bad but more nutrition and more fibre which is good) the more I feel like humanity and all life is just tenuously surviving, the evolution is in full force still, and that we're all damned lucky to even be something from a huge swirl of random particles. It's a miracle anything we touch doesn't cause us to fall apart. Everything we ingest is probably doing some damage, but if we don't eat we'll die for sure and much quicker. To try and live forever is a losing battle, and you'll make yourself go crazy trying to do so.

[dreacakes]

I've read the claim that vegans can get enough b12 from whatever bacteria animals get the b12 from, that the microorganisms in the gut can adapt to getting enough or something. Also foods like nutritional yeast have b12. In any case, just because you have to supplement b12 or other vitamins if you choose to be vegan, doesn't mean you have to eat meat to be healthy.

This is just a claim by vegans, it's not actually grounded in scientific truth. There is B12 generated in your gut, and some in things like nutritional yeast contain it, but it is not bioavailable, meaning your body doesn't absorb it. The vast majority of vegans are B12 deficient, even if they take supplements. This is a serious health issue. Here's a great article on B12 deficiency: Open Original Shared Link

And like I said before, this isn't the only thing the diet is lacking. Omega 3s come in long chain and short chain forms. Long chains are the one that is so vital for your brain. They are only found in large enough quantities in animal products. For years I took flax oil thinking I was getting my omega 3s... Not so! Plant foods have short chain omega 3s, and they aren't at all the same. I also ate spinach for iron, but it turns out that spinach has an anti-nutrient in it that blocks your body's absorption of iron. And soy for protein .. same problem, not only is soy terrible for other reasons, but the protein in it actually isn't bioavailable. I could go on with more examples, but I don't want to bore you all!

According to the extensive nutritional research I've done for the last two years since getting really sick, I have come to conclusion that humans do, in fact, need to eat animal products to be healthy. For example, cholesterol is actually an essential nutrient for the body. It's a hormone precursor, maintains cell membranes, is essential for neurological function, and helps synthesize vitamin D and bile.

I was an ethical vegan. But, I was highly misinformed about nutrition and human physiology by the vegan community. I know their hearts are in the right place, but the fanatical adherence to this crusade has clouded their minds. This is why I encourage anyone who is vegan or thinking of becoming vegan to please read other contrasting opinions about veganism before making a decision. Nutrient deficiencies are no joke, for anyone,

[VeggieGal]

Vegetarianism is one of the end times signs. Fun fun!

I think one problem for many vegetarians is eating too much soy. There are all kinds of soy based foods in the grocery stores now a days. And soy is not real good for people IMHO.

As someone speaking whos been a veggie since the age of 11 (I'm now 43) ...my reasons are because my dad made my eat a steak and blood gushed out) so after that experience, I found it difficult to physically and mentally chew flesh. HOWEVER, I totally agree with the above comment about soy and think ideally we should eat meat!

I really believe that the best form of getting our nutrients is from food rather than tablets, however my cupboard is full of them as I darent take the risk of believing I'm getting enough nutrients from my food! but I do think having a varied diet including meat, fish and seafood is the way to go. (I wish I could eat meat but I just can't chew it but when I was struggling to get pregnant I did start eating fish as long as long as it had no bones, skin and was covered in sauce!) Studies are now saying too much fruit is bad for us and coffee has benefits! Ok so studies say as a vegan its possible to get the nutrition needed...but it is difficult.

The media/health is always changing its mind about whats good and bad for you....so isnt the best way to just eat everything in moderation? minus the gluten!! If I was to go back to eating meat tho, I think I would look at buying organic and try not to eat the fast food junk (don't tell anyone, but I still love the smell of bacon ! )

[Yuckus]

I read Dr. Campbell's "The China Study" first, and have seen the movie. Though I have plenty of opinions on the veg/omnivore/carnivore and B12 debates, I'll keep those out of the post.

Just for some background, I grew up on a beef farm, and raised my own poultry for meat and eggs, so animal products had always been a large part of my diet. About seven years ago I was eating what would be considered a healthy omnivorous diet, then switched to a primarily plant based diet, and really my motivation was just weight loss. I lost some weight, had more energy, my skin was clearer, I slept less and woke feeling rested, my mood was more stable, I had less body odor, I haven't had any constipation since, and (I'm not a fan of the word, but) I felt less toxic. The biggest surprise though, in six weeks, my excruciating arthritis pain (I was told by two surgeons, that I'd have to take pain meds until 40 when I'd need both knees replaced) nearly disappeared and hasn't returned. My blood tests results are always perfect, and though I take Ritalin, drink too much coffee, and smoke (yeah, I know...) my doctor always comments that he's surprised that my blood pressure and resting heart rate is that of an athlete.

The few times since then that I have had meat or ice cream, I felt hungover, my digestion slowed and I was bloated. And really, I think the benefits come just as much from what I am eating as what I'm not. I've explored new foods I wouldn't have without the change, and since I'm not eating heavy filling animal foods, I eat lots of nutrient dense plant foods. I eat as much as I want when I want. I'm thirty pounds lighter with a slightly lower caliper measured body fat percentage (and look much less intimidating) than I was during my bodybuilding days back in college eating lots, and lots, and lots of animal protein, and I'm still nearly as strong with much higher endurance.

I recognize it could sound this way, but I'm not trying to say that a plant based diet is for everyone, or that it's a miracle cure for everything. My point is: I feel better great. I'm healthier. I'm happier. That's more than enough for me.

Thinking of the change as an active, positive choice, instead of focusing how difficult it may seem, makes it much much easier. I found going gluten free WAY more challenging and frustrating.

[pretty in paleo]

I'm sure forks over knives is all bull. People who don't eat meat never stop to think about this little fact: Modern agriculture kills 300 animals per acre since small animals settle in the fields and are killed by farm equipment. Eating grassfed meat kills a whopping 1 animal per acre.

[mushroom]

Not only does the ag equipment slaughter them, but they kill off what's left with their chemicals!